I remind you that sometimes a champion is OP because of meta shifts.

Marshbouy·Oct 16, 2016·72 votes·3,416 views

I am not saying this in response to anything right now, but i was reminded of the hate for trundle a few months ago where people screamed about him being OP. He was definitely performing above average but if riot were to nerf him, once the meta shifted a bit he would be underpowered and he would have to be buffed again. Sometimes its just better to wait a bit when it comes to buffing and nerfing a champion. EDIT: better example. 58% winrate rammus after the ADC update.

66 Comments

Lord GalvatronOct 16, 201625 votes

Prime example was when Rammus had a 56% win rate after the Marksmen update.

SwarovskoOct 16, 201622 votes

[{quoted}](name=Goon Platoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JrZtPyr8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-16T06:12:20.389+0000)

Prime example was when Rammus had a 56% win rate after the Marksmen update.

Remember Galio with 56%/58% win rate after the mage update?

Lord GalvatronOct 16, 20163 votes

I specifically remember that because I got a Gatekeeper Galio skin shard a week after the patch came out XD.

KnoyleOct 16, 20164 votes

Still don't understand how people were surprised that a champion that thrives on fighting ad auto attack champions suddenly becomes god tier when people start playing 5 man comp of right clickers.

Ashe Caitlyn Graves Kindred MissFortune

Whut Thuh Oct 16, 20162 votes

meta shifts never benefite aatrox item 3070 Aatrox

Lord GalvatronOct 17, 20164 votes

Rest in Spagetti, never forgetti.

JacctheInsomniacOct 16, 201617 votes

[deleted]

AstôlfoOct 16, 201612 votes

nerfs Sej because of item nerfs item doesn't revert Sej nerfs Sejuani item 3070

CasterGilgameshOct 16, 20162 votes

but they didnt remove cinderhulk you must mean nerfing the the champion then nerfing the real problem (the item) then not reverting the nerfs to the champion thus leaving them in the gutter

LordForrestOct 17, 20161 votes

You forgot about the Gromp buff changes. Sejuani before that update was in a good spot, I would honestly say she was sleeper OP. Then they added Cinderhulk and made Gromp buff better and it pushed her over the top. Also they only made 2 nerfs (technically 1) to her kit and that was lowering the initial on-hit damage part of her W, granted it was cut in half. Even the small nerf to cinderhulk didn't really make that much of a change to her sustained damage. It was mainly her initial burst that was hit, forcing her to shift from leveling W first for strong ganks and clears to leveling E for better ganks and slower clears.

I am not going to say that i don't wish for at least a partial revert on her W initial hit damage nerf, but the major reason she was in such a bad spot was mainly because of the shift to the sated meta. Which was pretty much full of champs that could destroy Sej before she could get rolling. This problem was made worse because of needing to level a skill to make her ganks better over her farming skill which made her early clears even easier for the enemy to exploit.

magic poleOct 17, 20161 votes

they reverted Udyr nerfs after devourer was removed

there's still hope

ApocylipticOct 16, 20163 votes

Sejuani wasn't as weak as people like to make her out to be. She was always at a solid 50% winrate after the nerfs (unlike her insane 58% before).

notice me Sin piOct 16, 20163 votes

most tank champs generally have 50%+ win rate only because they are great for improving a team comp in solo ~~well, dynamic~~ queue. Other than that, Sejuani is actually very underpowered than what her win rate indicates

LankPantsOct 17, 20161 votes

Tanks rest at above a 50% winrate in general simply because when they're on your team you have a tank. Almost every team with a Sej, Naut, Amumu or Zac is not a retarded comp running 5 squishy champions, but some of the comps they play against are and in these games the team with a tank has a huge advantage in winrate.

Same thing goes for AP champions, every APs winrate is inflated by the fact that you can't put them onto stupid all AD comps.

JacctheInsomniacOct 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

ApocylipticOct 18, 20161 votes

If you're not in lower elos, sejuani beats everyone of those champions other than maybe nautilus, but he sacrifices damage for his insane amount of cc. Her kit is a lot more complex, allowing a lot more plays to be made, and if she misses her ult she's not completely useless like malphite and amumu.

She's not particularly strong, but that doesn't indicate weakness. She's a great AP Tank for what she does, and if you get ahead you can actually snowball pretty hard which is pretty uncommon for a tank.

EndlessSorcererOct 16, 201614 votes

Everyone starts playing squishy and low mobility champions in top, mid, bot and support?

Suddenly, Zac and Hecarim begin killing everything.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 16, 201610 votes

Popular ADCs at worlds: Caitlyn Ezreal Jhin

All three:

Deal long-range damage safely.
Can deal mixed damage (Jhin, Ezreal)
Have self-escape tools (Ezreal, Caitlyn)
Work well with poke supports
Can combo with CC (Jhin, Caitlyn)

It's hardly that these three are the ABSOLUTE BEST but, rather, they're the best when it comes to the meta. You'll see different picks (Such as Sivir) when the comp dictates it.

ShaolinToiletOct 16, 20164 votes

Why'd you say all three before your list when 3 of your points only have 2

MrryZOct 16, 20161 votes

Because all three are still equally popular at worlds.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 16, 20162 votes

Because all three have at least two of the qualities wanted currently. Safety (Ez, Cait), Range (All three), follow-up CC (Jhin/Cait) and mixed damage to make itemization a little more difficult (Ez/Jhin)

Whut Thuh Oct 16, 20161 votes

cait and jhin have free wards (ezreal has cc with gauntlet) and while siver works best with a comp shes most often picked becuase of the advantage she gives on objectives since she pushes so well that the enemy can hardly leave or they risk losing tons of cs and xp or even the tower. this means sivir and her team is almost always free to get the drag before the lane pushes to their tower

Troy242621Oct 16, 20166 votes

Both got kicked in the nuts for jungle updates. Twice.

Sejuani 's boar did too, but only once. Though it was a big, spiked boot.

DunkinNoobsOct 16, 20165 votes

Trundle was OP because he was OP and the nerfs he got were 100% deserved.

Spaceman5pffOct 16, 20168 votes

Trundle received nothing in the way of noteworthy buffs to make him stronger. The stars just aligned for him, the pros started playing him, people copied it, and then you cried about it.

DunkinNoobsOct 16, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Trundle received nothing in the way of noteworthy buffs to make him stronger. The stars just aligned for him, the pros started playing him, people copied it, and then you cried about it.

_V5.23 Stats Attack range increased to 175 from 125.

V5.12

Subjugate Total target's maximum health ratio increased to 20 / 27.5 / 35% from 20 / 24 / 28%.

V5.9

Pillar of Ice Slow increased to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45%. Knockback Distance increased to 225 from 150. V5.5 ** King's Tribute** Range increased to 1400 from 1000. Frozen Domain Healing amplification increased to 20% at all ranks from 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 / 20%. ** Subjugate** Fixed a bug that caused Subjugate to only steal 36% of the target's Armor and Magic Resistance instead of 40%._

Man, you look really stupid right now.

DrCyanideOct 16, 20166 votes

Buffs in patch 5.5 and 5.9... Wouldn't that have made him a terror last year? I mean, we're closer to patch 7.5 than 5.5 at this point.

PoskeOct 16, 20162 votes

And wasnt he terror last year?

DrCyanideOct 16, 20162 votes

I don't recall him being picked all that often in 2015 (when those buffs happened). 2016, yeah, he's been an influential pick that was more deserving of the Victorious skin than Maokai, but that's almost a year after those buffs.

DunkinNoobsOct 16, 20162 votes

It did make him a terror last year. Where the fuck have you been?

DrCyanideOct 16, 20163 votes

In 2015?

No, he wasn't a terror then. As best I can tell, he was picked twice in the EU LCS that year, meaning he was a less contested pick/ban than Urgot.

Yes, he's been a strong pick this year, but considering nothing changed for Trundle between 2015 and 2016 (other than +50 auto attack range) then that just proves the OP's point, it's a meta change that has made him strong, nothing more.

PB4UAMEOct 17, 20161 votes

TBF, unless I am mistaken, Trundle saw a 4% increase in winrate after that range buff.

DrCyanideOct 17, 20161 votes

Yeah, and it was also right as Illaoi was released and Juggernauts had been reigning supreme. The champion that steals tanky champion's stats benefited from having more tanky champions in the game.

It's also 1 patch after the Marksman update, where teams with 3 or 4 marksmen weren't unheard of. Anyone building defensive stats is focusing on Armor, which is super effective against both teams.

Between the 5.12 buffs and the 5.23 buffs, 22 weeks passed with no note worthy changes. Mega Gnar, Sion, Shyvanna, and Zac also had the range buffs, without the same dramatic spike in win rate, so I'd be pretty hesitant to pin +4% win rate on +50 melee range.

PB4UAMEOct 21, 20161 votes

They buffed his range specifically because he was losing to laners he shouldn't have been losing to (i.e. juggernauts) at higher Elos, in part due to being out ranged.

It allowed him to leverage the meta shift and be strong in an environment that favored him. It wasn't just the buff, certainly, but it did contribute.

Spaceman5pffOct 17, 20161 votes

Damn, I was about to upvote and praise you for solid research, then you resorted to namecalling. 2/10 this isn't second grade get over yourself.

DunkinNoobsOct 17, 20161 votes

People should expect some hostility for trying to spread blatant lies. He's lucky I didn't say worse things.

Spaceman5pffOct 17, 20161 votes

He also directly called me stupid. And indirectly called everybody reading this thread stupid as well.

TotalJerkOct 16, 20164 votes

Definitely has nothing to do with ult having no counterplay and the fact that when he is near a minion wave he becomes fucking Dr Mundo

General TherittOct 16, 20162 votes

Ult has counterplay as it gives him the tanks stats, meaning yes, he beefs the hell up, but by doing so he either has to start killing or it goes to waste, and the opponent AD carry can try and use that opportunity to kite him out, forcing his ult into a null-zone. His passive is pretty insane, but its how he sustains fights, because if you teamfight in jungle his passive isn't even relevant. Use Gnar against him, and force him to blow ult on mini-gnar to survive fights if you can. He barely gains tank stats, you transform, and suddenly your stats overwhelm his by massive margins. You also have consistent poke, a nice HP chunking passive on W forcing him to keep farming or he dies, and your mini E or mega E can fly over his pillar, allowing for quick escapes, and in mega Gnar you have enough CC to stall him from reaching the team even IF he ults you to attack.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 16, 20163 votes

it says something when an entire champion class is out of meta and weak except for a cpl.

(kha zix and nidalee.) literally every other assassin is useless in this meta. thats why they getting reworked just like mages a while back

MarshbouyOct 16, 201616 votes

... ... Nidalee is op for completely different re- who am i kidding im wasting my time talking to a saltmine like you.

Spaceman5pffOct 16, 20163 votes

Prime example: Sejuani benefitting from the Cinderhulk meta.

Clearly the best way out is to nerf the champion, not the item that made them OP

Whut Thuh Oct 16, 20162 votes

they nerfed sej first. which made her balanced, which then shed light on the fact that ALL tank junglers were op as hell with cinderhulk so they nerfed the item and never compensated sejuani and shes still weak to this day

VitalitaOct 16, 20162 votes

Anyone remember 80% winrate Sona a couple months ago?

Bladerunner7777Oct 16, 20165 votes

That was the result of overbuffing

Like Nunu right now

VitalitaOct 16, 20162 votes

Yeah, but it's not as bad as Sona was. It was almost a guaranteed win as Sona, as Nunu it's a little more balanced.

The Blue RajahOct 16, 20162 votes

But they did nerf trundle.

Chad Te EmployeeOct 16, 20161 votes

Exhibit A: Yasuo While he still was annoying and a threat to many champions im pretty sure he wasn't called op by every body until bruiser yas showed up

valve nerf plsOct 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chad Te Employee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JrZtPyr8,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-10-16T20:17:55.535+0000)

Exhibit A: While he still was annoying and a threat to many champions im pretty sure he wasn't called op by every body until bruiser yas showed up

''While he still was annoying and a threat to many champions im pretty sure he wasn't called op by every body until bruiser yas showed up'' mate have you been living under a rock?it doesnt matter if he build bruiser,if he was top tier,if he was trash tier people awayls bitch and complain about yasou no matter what eveen after his nerfs people in the still say ''huu durrr yasou op huu duur yasou is broken'' there is eveen a time in season 5 when he was not that good people still bitched and complained about him,its not because he is op its because of nonsense hate

Whut Thuh Oct 16, 20161 votes

people hate his outplay potential. people hate losing a good fight because they got outplayed/ they suck ass and a good yasuo can outplay the fuk out of alot of fights and even 2 v 1 ganks