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Why even let anyone other than CertainlyT rework champions?

Moody P··19 votes·4,328 views

By far when it comes to VGU's the quality of CT's are incomparably better than everyone else's products.

Warwick and Akali are indisuputably the highest quality VGUs we've seen to date. They've made both champions much healthier and more modern while (and this is the most important part) remaining faithful to the original spirit of the champion. The only other VGU to come close to CT's high bar is Evelynn.

There is no "delete your champ and replace with generic, marketable garbage" Aatrox Nunu Karma There is no "just make them a tank" Sion Poppy There is no "just give them everything and hope it works out" Irelia Galio There is no "just make them shit" Yorick

Do I even need to say more? Outside of Akali's current numbers just being a bit too high, she's a very well designed champion and simple number tweaks will place her in a perfectly acceptable position. Warwick is one of the least offensive champions ever since his VGU and has barely appeared on the patch notes.

Honestly, as much as I dread the "inevitable" Volibear VGU, because he truly and honestly does NOT need one, if CertainlyT is the man doing it, I don't think I have to worry about any of the above happening, because CertainlyT has his head on straight and a clear passion for his work.

VGU devs, take note. CT is three times as good as the next guy.

99 Comments

Eleshakai23 votes

I don't think there's anything generic about Nunu... he has a ton of charm. I feel like his problem is mostly that he's just too weak.

Moody P4 votes

Nunu discarded most of the things that made him stand out in the LoL roster (deliberate buffs and AS crippling) and traded it for generic "more hard CC" lazy tank design. I will give Riot credit where it's due for maintaining his objective control and his ult, but the things that changed are bad and, according to his stats, he simply doesn't work very well with them.

One could probably fix that by making his E not be the most laughably ignorable ability in the entire game, but the issue remains that he's almost completely interchangeable with other tanks as far as his main contribution to his team comes -- and his other role with objective lockdown and speedy clearing is now being contested by Cho'Gath and the upcoming Sejuani changes.

Eleshakai6 votes

I'm sorry, but both mechanically and thematically speaking 'Biggest Snowball Ever' is one of the most unique abilities in the game. E is WEAK, but it's still UNIQUE in how it works.

There is nothing generic about him. He's just weak.

(I also disagree with you about Karma, Aatrox and Galio, but I agree with you about Akali and WW. I'm mostly neutral on Yorick overall, and I have mixed feelings about Irelia - I agree, in terms of the overload problem - but I feel I should say that Irelia is close to my favourite champ from a purely visual standpoint - she just moves around so elegantly, and the way the blades move is literally art in motion. Just to set the record straight as far as my overall impression of your post)

Moody P3 votes

Mechanically it's just a Sion ult as a projectile. It's not that interesting, nor unique. It's fun, don't get me wrong - I won't say Riot doesn't make fun champions, but objectively, they're not unique particularly in their end goal, and Nunu's end goal is the same as nearly every other engage tank, which is "hit you with a lot of hard CC." This isn't specifically Nunu's fault, but he's an unfortunate result of a problem with Riot in being annoyingly reluctant on making engage tanks less monotonous in how they play the game and actually being different from each other in ways that actually matter - if you want an example of it, you can look at the other spectrum, Wardens, who are all very clearly different from each other and more often than not offer a lot more than just their CC, and who can actually be considered unique champions in League - I will give Poppy credit for achieving this much, because she is a Warden and at least succeeds at doing that.

Nunu is basically stuck in the same trap that other Vanguards are; if he's good, or if he's the best at doing his thing, then he will just be the best Vanguard, because their goals are too overlapped amongst each other for any other result to take place.

Eleshakai2 votes

Name an ability in any game and I guarantee you I can do the same thing you just did. Every ability ever designed can be described in the sense of 'oh it's just <x> but <changed in y way>'.

That doesn't mean it isn't unique. It IS unique BECAUSE of the 'changed in y way'.

Moody P3 votes

It's only unique enough to be relevant if it actually changes the function or goal of a champion in some way. Nunu W and Sion R have the same end goal (hit you and do a knockup) and most of the same journey towards that goal; Nunu's W isn't even very good used as a projectile, and it's often better to just put yourself in melee unless you're trying to peel.

If 10 tank champions are all played exclusively because they can chain-disable you, those 10 tanks are not unique champions. Again, the things that make Nunu stand out are the things that he already had before the rework; post-rework has homogenized him greatly at the expense of real playability, evidenced by him not having much reason to pick since his relaunch beyond simply enjoying the champion, because he's not offering you much that someone isn't doing better.

Eleshakai3 votes

So you're saying that since Xayah and Sivir both want to 'auto-attack you to death', they're not distinct champions?

Or like... Brand and Leblanc both want to 'use big nukes and cc combos to burst you to death'. Xerath and Lux both want to 'poke you down from range and then cc you so they can finish you off with a big combo of long-range spells'.

Two champions that have the same goal CAN be unique in the means to achieve that goal, even if those means have similar purposes. Xerath and Lux ult both want to snipe you from long range, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who considers the spells to be 'too similar'.

Moody P3 votes

entirely disingenuous; both of these champions have strengths beyond their rightclicking and both of said strengths are vastly different. Sivir has hard engage and Xayah has excellent CC and wombo potential. Brand is AOE and plays for teamfights, LB is single target and plays for picks. Xerath is good and Lux isn't.

You're ignoring the main (correct) point; Vanguards offer little in the ways of meaningful variance, and Nunu is included in this. They get on you, and they mass CC everyone they can for as long as they can. Even Sejuani, the single-target stun bot, is not exempt from this given that she can spam E on as many targets are primed.

History has already proven me right; the only engage tanks that end up worth playing are the ones with the best combination of CC and durability, or CC and damage if you're playing in soloQ. The little "extra bits" that make them only vaguely different in how they approach the fight is irrelevant to their worth as picks; the only thing people care about - and the only thing that matters - are the results.

Eleshakai2 votes

You're not interested in reason here, you just want me to tell you you're right. So I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion.

Sharpest glasses4 votes

(I also disagree with you about Karma, Aatrox and Galio

How can you disagree about them ?? Aatrox was definitly deleted (kit and playstyle), for Galio the kit is good ... but his personnality make him sound like another champion (definitly not Galio.

Clearly Aatrox is the worse rework (keeping only the revive, losing the playstyle,the personnality, everything).

Eleshakai5 votes

The old Aatrox was a disaster of a champion - full of poor design decisions, underwhelming mechanics, and just... awkwardness. The new Aatrox is an interesting champion with dynamic mechanics and decisions to make. While the new Aatrox is overpowered, that's not a 'rework fault', it's just a balance issue.

Sometimes, reworking something requires sacrifice. Aatrox was so unpopular because he could never be powerful. If he was ever powerful, it was indicative of him being OVERpowered... since there was very little inherent skill expression in his kit... if he was strong, it was because he was just plain too strong and there was nothing anyone else could do. Now, there are levers that can be tweaked.

As for Galio, while I don't play him, I really like his theme and aesthetic. He FEELS interesting to have in the game, and his abilities all have a very unique footprint and impact. I'd call that a success, personally.

Sharpest glasses3 votes

The rework of Aatrox is bad, anyway. Newtrox is a good champ, but a bad rework.

The old Aatrox was good (without being op) since the first rework (sure he was op with Guinsoo, but many champ are like that).

Sometimes, reworking something requires sacrifice. Aatrox was so unpopular because he could never be powerful.

Dosnt matter tbh. He needed a rework not a delete. his popularity has nothing to do with his old state.

If he was ever powerful, it was indicative of him being OVERpowered... since there was very little inherent skill expression in his kit...

No. He was strong without being popular nor OP when he was build triforce Sterak. Seems like all of you (defenders of this rework) just parrot each other. He was strong since the first rework.

As for Galio, while I don't play him, I really like his theme and aesthetic. He FEELS interesting to have in the game, and his abilities all have a very unique footprint and impact. I'd call that a success, personally.

i play him too (he's OP), but they kept nothing of his old them, aesthetic, personnality. From a serious champ to a funny one. His kit rework is a success tho.

Eleshakai5 votes

No, he was a pointless wreck of stats. ANY re-work they did of Aatrox would've either kept nothing of the old or left him in a state where there was no point to his existence.

He needed exactly what happened, a complete restructuring, keeping only the revive, since that was the one point of interest.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

So just like every ADC ever. When are we starting to delete and rewortk them too?

Ironically he atleast had a passive to play around, ult to play around and two skillshots but yeah a "wreck of stats". Just shut the fuck up honestly.

Eleshakai2 votes

"I don't like that you're right, so I'm going to tell you to shut up because my arguments are too weak to actually convince even myself of anything and I don't want to have a discussion"

Moody P1 votes

you're not right, though, and his revive was easily the most toxic part of his kit, rofl.

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JmzoFUEz,comment-id=0000000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-10T21:59:06.985+0000)

you're not right, though, and his revive was easily the most toxic part of his kit, rofl.

The most toxic part of his kit was his kit. Nobody enjoyed the prospect of having to go deal with a hyperfarmed splitpushing Aatrox that would give literally no shits about you and just dive you under tower, melting you with his absurd DPS from items and W. At least now you have t actually be good at him to make that wrk. You can outplay new Aatrox. Your counterplay to old Aatrox was "Don't fight him".

Moody P1 votes

hilariously incorrect but there's no point talking about aatrox when most people posting here will never play at a level where aatrox is actually good

that's really all there is to it and it's the same with sion, mistaking telegraphs for counter play because their users are bad at each of these champions (and if they aren't then they've already climbed well above that rank anyway)

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JmzoFUEz,comment-id=000000000000000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T16:12:19.694+0000)

hilariously incorrect but there's no point talking about aatrox when most people posting here will never play at a level where aatrox is actually good

that's really all there is to it and it's the same with sion, mistaking telegraphs for counter play because their users are bad at each of these champions (and if they aren't then they've already climbed well above that rank anyway)

Tell me what is hilariously incorrect about it. Don't just fucking say "Ha lol you're wrong" and then expect to be taken seriously when your only follow up to that is "LOL no point talking to boardie SCRUBS they don't know anything"

Dr Dog2 votes

that doesnt really excuse them butchering his personallity, that was needless and probably the best part of him

Eleshakai2 votes

Honestly, I don't remember Aatrox having much of a personality when I played him, but clearly people were invested in it, so that's a totally fair criticism.

However, I was mostly focused on kit in this discussion, as it was targeted at CertainlyT who is a designer, not a writer.

Dr Dog2 votes

he did have nice writing and personality, but ya his kit is much better now

Eleshakai1 votes

Ya, I don't remember that at all, but you probably have a better frame of reference than me for that so I'll take your word for it... and Aatrox's in-game personality now seems to be just very... angry at everything, which isn't terribly deep.

That being said, I did enjoy reading the stories they wrote regarding Aatrox. Those intrigued me a lot.

Dr Dog2 votes

ya ive been playing since season 3 lol, aatrox used to be a cool collected army killer but now hes just an angry generic meathead

Eleshakai1 votes

oh I've been playing on and off and on and off and on and off since beta(Proud member of the Silver Kayle/UFO Corki Club.... not that I ever play Kayle or Corki...) ... I just don't have any particularly strong memories of a 'personality' in the games I played Aatrox shortly after he first came out. However, different people are drawn to different things, so it's entirely possible that it was unmemorable for me but super interesting for you :)

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Same thing they did to maokai. Even if i dislike them reworking his ult if they atleast would have left his personality. Nope he has to be some retard yelling something about smashing. That#s the actual reason i don't play maokai anymore. Can't listen to this dumbfuck anymore and i fear for the nautilus butchering once they get to him.

DarukongSr2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think there's anything generic about Nunu... he has a ton of charm. I feel like his problem is mostly that he's just too weak.

Yeah I actually like Sion, poppy, and nunu since the reworks, which is not to say that they haven't been too strong at times (like Sion right now).

Strawberrycocoa7 votes

I don't like CT's designs because he never seems to grasp the concept of the Enemy Play Experience. Most of his designs are built to be fun and rewarding for the player using them, but they end up unduly frustrating to work against for all of their opponents. He needs a more balanced outlook on his designs, and needs to take the other side into account more.

D357R0Y3R6 votes

warwick is by far the best vgu

it literally didn't miss any goal of a vgu while doing everything great

Moody P5 votes

It's hilarious to me how many CT haters won't even concede that this is true, always having some lame excuse of "Well, he was being held back," as if that doesn't mean that he didn't do objectively the BEST job of any VGU to date.

CT has set the bar for VGUs years ago and nobody else has been able to reach it.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

at the same time, if the balance team didn't take 5 months to fix Akali, but fixed her instantly on release instead of taking 2 months to give her the first nerf, I think you would have people admitting that new Akali has more counterplay than old Akali.

Old Akali was uncontrollable, with resets, point and click 700 range dash and no skillshot. While already having non stop sustain in lane it was obnoxious af. at least new akali regains 5-25 hp in lane once every 15 sec IF she didn't use any spells

ChaddyFantome5 votes

Nunu is a great rework tho. no clue what ur talkign about.

Moody P4 votes

So great that he's never been above absolute dog shit since it came out.

Fantastic.

AirKingNeo3 votes

please don't fuck up kayle, jinxylord.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

please don't fuck up kayle, jinxylord.

And then Kayle comes out more overloaded than Ekko, with her flaming sword thing also becoming a 3-hit passive.

Am I jinxing it?

.......

Though I'd like to think after graduating from Jhin, Jinxylord may be pretty solid now. But another Ekko is always a possibility.

chipndip11 votes

Jinxylord made Jinx.

You're fucked. Kayle will be cool as a concept, and shit as a character.

Carnicore1 votes

Jinx has been a good-to-great soloqueue champion in almost every patch since her release.

chipndip12 votes

She's a hyper carry and it's solo queue. It's like Jax.

Solo queue doesn't make a good story for a champion's actual power level.

AirKingNeo1 votes

yeah that kinda happened to ekko

balance team refuses to make him not a shitty version of "why not pick a mage for waveclear?"

SithesisLord1 votes

I trust Jinxylord to do her gameplay right.

I just don´t trust the lore team to give her a good lore.

At this point i´m expecting some major downgrade like Elise and Leona/Diana got on the lore front.

AirKingNeo1 votes

honestly, I want something similar to her old lore (basically the same as the current, but before the League was retconned).

SithesisLord1 votes

Same. To me, any lore that doesn´t make her be from another world/dimension is not Kayle.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I trust Jinxylord to do her gameplay right.

I just don´t trust the lore team to give her a good lore.

You got it backwards.

Jinxy characters have great lore and personality, and crappy, generalist game play.

SociaI Justice3 votes

Akali made much healthier

what are you on? pass me some of that good good fam

Volibear VGU, because he truly and honestly does NOT need one

i'm guessing you aren't very good at volibear then eh

Moody P2 votes

"volibear doesn't need a vgu" "you must not be very good at volibear"

explain to me your thought process, great simple one.

SociaI Justice2 votes

as someone who played voli to dia i can tell you that his a fucking horrible champion fam

Moody P1 votes

can you substantiate that claim for me, please

SociaI Justice1 votes

can you show me how good you are at volibear to show me how wrong I were? anyone above plat elo that has ever played volibear can tell you that his in a dire need of a rework.

Moody P1 votes

no mate i'm askin if you've got a separate account or smth because you've got no voli games at all and you're plat 2. my voli numbers are ass this season, but that's my fault more than the champs

SociaI Justice2 votes

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=nice+table he was actually good for a while after the mini rework but then he got nerfed pretty hard and the new jungle really fucked him up, you could still try to play him top but his scaling is so shit it doesn't make sense.

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