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The biggest problem with ability deleting abilities

The Bearded Bard··43 votes·2,845 views

Fiora W, Fizz E, Vladimir W, and Yasuo W are all extremely frustrating to play against and for good reason. They completely shift the control of the fight into whoever is playing those characters' favors. When fighting them, you've got two options; Use your abilities and hope their reactions are too slow to dodge them, or wait out their ability eating ability then use your abilities. Either way, you're going to win or lose this fight based on the enemy's skill, not your own.

Alright, clearly hypothetical examples have no place on the boards because everyone plays the devil's advocate and tells me all about how they would do better in that situation. You're getting distracted from the point. The point I'm making here is that these champions put you into a situation that you cannot win if they do not make a mistake. I'm not saying that they're playing better than you, I'm saying they don't make a mistake. That means they don't fall for your baits.

96 Comments

FreshAsFebreze17 votes

I mean, you picked a pretty bias example. Varus lives and dies by his "projectiles" so he gets countered in this match-up. But, for example, Malzahar dumps on yas because his q can easily be cast while avoiding windwall and his ult just passes right through it since it isn't a "projectile".

RainbowIcee4 votes

just to add to it Varus isnt a very strong ADC with many options. At late game his abilities just lower his dps is better for him to just be an auto attack turrent with the usual Ult ( which is his only saving grace ) Ive carried games as varus and man.. let me tell you... he is one of the hardest adcs to carry late game with. Only works if the enemy team doesnt focus you so you can AA them to death. Which is his most viable DPS asset.

Volcanuz2 votes

If you are playing varus and using his abilities in the middle of the fight you are a moron. His abilities are only for poping his stacks or poking before the battle starts. The range alone on his Q gives him optimal positioning over most ADC and his ult can hold down a whole team if used at the right time.

Saying Varus has crap abilities or that they scale bad over time is just absurd and means you need to learn more about the champ. Sure some people are probably bad and play him bad but not everyone is as bad as those people. Most times they see a good varus and go "oh wow i should try him" then fail hard.

RainbowIcee2 votes

I insist he isnt a very strong ADC as an ADC and a poker his power goes down really fast mid game. Is he never useful? ofcourse not, his ult is a very good CC in a team fight and very easy to land and fast at that. But would I always rather use another option other than varus for poking/harrassing/ or carrying. I sure would if i want to win, otherwise i would just play him for fun because carrying to lategame is gonna be work.

Volcanuz1 votes

ONLY time i have ever seen him useless in my games is against tank heavy teams with tons of armor and health + regen. His abilities then are useless i agree. But hitting a mage with a full power Q will most likely half health them or close to it. Add deathfire and it is pretty much half health. Then you add his ult then a full Q and you have 80%+ of a mage/adc's health. And tanks can't do anything to stop it unless they are braum or have a yas who wants to waste his windwall over a skillshot.

I never use his abilities in a close fight though, unless i spam Q to proc my W stacks for the health max burn. And his E is still useful when 1v1 a melee/adc with life steal or heals.

Overall his kit is still very strong you just need to build right or have a team which understands the poke method of pre-engagement. If you don't i 100% agree with you his freaking useless and you may as well pick another ADC. Then again if you play anything enough times you will become a god at it, so even in those cases i said you can still win with Varus.

The Bearded Bard5 votes

Alright switch up the scenario then. Orianna vs Fizz. Orianna tries to catch Fizz out with full combo, Fizz presses E and dodges it. Or Fizz jumps onto Ori with Q, Ori snaps ball back to her with E then tries to fight back with combo, Fizz presses E, dodges it, kills Ori. I can keep going, but you get the idea. When you fight these champions, you're entirely reliant on them messing up, not you playing well.

Yes, you can beat these champions, but only if they make a mistake. If you play everything perfectly and they play everything perfectly, they will win.

TehNACHO2 votes

This is also a pretty terrible example. Assassins typically do well at overpowering Orianna in lane. Fizz beating through Orianna is par for the course, not an egregious destruction of typical game mechanics.

WoonStruck1 votes

That only really applies to Fizz, though.

Vlad, Yas, and Fiora all have absurdly long CDs on their safety abilities, and they all max them last, unlike Fizz.

Also, the other 3 do not deal their damage primarily in burst.

What you should be arguing is that Fizz should be reworked to either fit their pattern or lose a huge portion of the strength in his E.

Volcanuz2 votes

This. I would love to see have a higher CD on his E. It is far to low a CD for something so damn good at avoiding stuff.

Volcanuz2 votes

Easy. Q at fizz, force him to E, back off, Q again and full combo.

It is all about forcing abilities in the end really. You can't just expect your combo to always work with champs who have avoidance abilities. Patience is a must and most don't have it in this game. They all want NOW NOW NOW performance.

Terchio1 votes

There are a few champs that have no interaction with Yasuo, this much is true. However, not only is it the vast majority who have skills (or entire kits) completely negated, but almost all poke-type champs are among this negation (as well as ranged ADC's, but they at least don't spend and cry when their abilities fall off, because they always have more where that came from.)

As an example, part of the problem here is that Yasuo's kit can make his team have a very strong melee presence, while his teammates can power up a backline poke comp. Now, the enemy team can do just that, as well. However, Yasuo can basically negate that entire element from the enemy team's comp for a few seconds, much of which is CC, deadly burst, and other forms of utility (think Lee Sin's Q, for example). There really isn't a champion so imposing that an element of the enemy's game is simply lost for a few seconds.

And it doesn't help that they not only made him a direct counter for poke champs in that fasion, but then they turn around and make him benefit heavily from kits that can land reliable team-wide knockups, like Malphite and Alistar. Nobody has undeniable synergy nor countering like Yas does, as far as I can tell. Even Eve and Kass synergy (low cooldown Kass E) is just kinda lame at the end of the day. Blitz/Thresh make a spectacle, but they have to land a meaningful grab first, or else 2 champs are heavily spent on a dud. Meanwhile, Yas gets a strong CC strike he doesn't even have to aim from his beefy, hard-to-ignore allies.

Vistha Kai12 votes

You left out the fact Fizz not only "deletes" your abilities with one button press, but also takes half of your health with the same button.

The Blue Rajah10 votes

Orrrr... You could shoot your q, if he wind walls it, you can get him with your ult (or vice versa). And don't say something about 5 seconds. You said he jumped on you, so you should be kiting. If he stays behind his wall, you escape, if he chases, he's no longer protected.

This applies to all those abilities. Whenever you're against any of those characters, don't combo all your abilities at once. Otherwise you're not getting outplayed, you're outplaying yourself.

Reikken4 votes

Yeah, this. Just trade 1 for 1. Shoot 1 ability that will cause him to wall it, then kite him out of the wall (or sidestep it, if he's not interested in attacking you), and then shoot the rest. No offense, but if they're messing you up that badly that you feel powerless, it really is a lack of skill on your part.

ThePartyLeader7 votes

My only complaint is wind wall is practically invisible in a teamfight.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

My biggest complaint [about Windwall] is that the hit-box is bigger than Yasuo's. The bastard can literally sit inside it and be immune to projectiles for the duration.

invisiblecat17 votes

Fiora isn't too bad since it lasts under a second and it can be dodged Vladimir can't do anything while in pool, and it does little damage Fizz's is annoying Yasuo's lasts forever and he can still do things while it is it

The Bearded Bard3 votes

You know everyone keeps saying Fiora's fine but Fizz is broken, but they both last the exact same amount of time. .75 seconds.

invisiblecat19 votes

Fiora stands still while casting hers, and it does magic damage Fizz gets a dash and it does 500 damage I still don't see your point

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Fiora: Parry all non-turret damage and enemy CC for 0.75 seconds. Cooldown: 24-16 Higher damage and scaling, but from a wasted stat. Can stun if parries immobilizing CC; Otherwise slows. Single target skill shot.

Fizz: Untargetable for 0.75 seconds. Cooldown: 18-10 Less damage and scaling, but from primary stat. Dash and slows. Self targeted AoE.

Their duration is the same, but Fizz's skill is stronger almost every way.

ForeverLaxx6 votes

So what you're saying is, you don't want to have to consider what your opponent can do and plan around it. Good to know.

WoonStruck4 votes

Vlad, unlike the other three, actually deserves it, much like GP deserves his orange. Both are pretty immobile overall.

Fiora (potentially), Fizz, and Yasuo have hard CC and lots of damage. In Fiora's case, you basically win/lose your lane completely and totally in champion select.

chipndip14 votes

Vlad and Fizz don't delete abilities. They just dodge them. It's entirely possible to body the guy behind them.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

The ability to completely nullify an enemy's ability is actually a fine thing to have in game. You do mention the real problem:

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlAHp8im,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-22T06:31:51.436+0000)

Use your abilities and hope their reactions are too slow to dodge them

All of these abilities are instantaneous (or after a short cast time). That means they get to choose which of your abilities to block. It means you need to hold your strongest ability -- usually your ult -- until they use their ability, or fight them without your strongest ability, while they actually can use theirs.

If there were a champion with a similar ability to wind wall, that had a delay like Ekko's Parallel Convergence (well, maybe not that long), it wouldn't be nearly as frustrating to play against.

Some final things worth noting:

  • Fizz and Fiora depend on their abilities being instantaneous; you'd have to give them a large rework to change that.
  • Vlad and Yasuo would need a smaller set of changes to accommodate a delay on their W's.
  • Despite having a similar effect, Braum's Unbreakable is not as frustrating because:
    • Braum is not a priority target, so you usually don't want to hit him with abilities anyway.
    • Braum usually can't 1v1 you.
    • CC is still applied.
    • Only the first abilities is absorbed completely.
    • It's directional.
    • It's his Thing; The reason you pick him. The other champions are all picked for their damage, not their ability to delete enemy abilities.
WoonStruck2 votes

Vlad relies on his pool being instant more than Fizz or Fiora rely on their defensive abilities being instant.

You're severely underestimating mobility.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

Sivir

Count Zubat3 votes

At least from the champions you mentioned Vlad's pool comes with quite a big price and he doesn't have any mobility beside it whatsoever. So yeah, if you bait it out, you can severely punish Vladimir.

Friendly Ram2 votes

You didn't menyion braum?

The Bearded Bard2 votes

I was going to mention braum but decided against it. Of all the reaction based ability eating abilities, I think his is the most balanced.

DarkRitual1 votes

Sivir Spell Shield is about similar in duration to Fiora, while maintaining full mobility and dps. Notable, but fair still.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I thought this was about Braum? But anyways, Sivir spellshield, and nocturnes for that matter, only block one ability for the most part. Sure there's a few cases of it blocking more than one, but it's not often.

DarkRitual2 votes

Point was they block as much as Fiora's does.

The Bearded Bard5 votes

Untrue. Fioras blocks all damage and cc for .75 seconds, the spellshields block one ability.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Spellshields block every ability that hits in the same frame.

LazyW0lf1 votes

Are you saying that you can reliably predict the frame when to use a spellshield so that all the abilities are blocked? Or are you trying to compare a 0.016(66666666) second block to a .75 second block?

Vistha Kai2 votes

Take a chill pill.

It was just a clarification.

Bisaknosp2 votes

fiora's is the most fair one it lasts 0,75 seconds, has a long cd (esp. in the early and mid game) and deals low damage nothing to complain about it, you can even dodge the stun/slow when its down she is pretty vulnerable and you can actually bait it out quite easily

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I think it'd be a fine ability if it only blocked one thing, but it doesn't. It blocks everything for that .75 seconds.

Zerenza3 votes

Thats the point, remember that Vlad and fizz's last twice that long and yasuo's is quadruple that length, the animation for fiora's W is also the same length as their animations but will only block for for the first half of the animation which leaves her vulnerable and completely immobile. Her reaction speed has to be incredible to land this ability and in addition she has a hard time against ability's that have no indicator.

Her damage is EXTREMELY low compared to the other champions you listed and she has a large amount of counterplay compared to them. Landing a vital is her only reliable way to damage anyone, her Q does less damage than an auto attack if she doesn't hit a vital. Her auto attacks are extremely weak as well and her kit revolves completely around her Passive.

Fiora's kit is supposed to reward you for getting used to her mini-game and playing her correctly.

Mighty Mortein1 votes

While all of your points are good, I'd like to mention something. I'm not going against you here, just pointing out facts.

  • IF a Fiora player is quick enough and knows how her enemy plays, she can easily parry ignites.
  • Vlad and Fizz take the ignite damage mid "invulnerability".
  • I know Fiddlesticks drain doesn't break when Fizz uses his E, but I don't know if that still applies when Vladimir W's. Yasuo's windwall is just very frustrating. It's ALMOST like Pantheons passive, except a skillshot and doesn't block towershots. That being said, Fiora's Parry is probably the most balanced out of all those abilities you've mentioned, maybe tied with Vlad pool. Yes, Fiora is rewarding if you play her smart, which a majority of her players do, while Fizz is freelo pretty much. I used to be a disgusting Fizz main. His recent nerf(s) were needed, and honestly, he needs a bit more because his windows of counterplay are small.
Ariel the Cruel3 votes
  • I know Fiddlesticks drain doesn't break when Fizz uses his E, but I don't know if that still applies when Vladimir W's.

Untargetability doesn't break tethers or DoT's already established.

CC Mustang2 votes

Braum Kick it back!

A Liberal2 votes

Yeah! Screw those champions!!!

quietly sweeps Morgana e underneath carpet

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I think a bigger question is why Varus would fight Yasou without his support.

You gotta peel like Gangplank peels his oranges. Quickly and without care to the mess you inevitability make.

Mhihnj2 votes

Gangplank peels his oranges

or does he?

Wimbledofy2 votes

He definitely doesn't, he eats them whole like a real pirate.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

I should have known...

DeathBurst1 votes

OR you use only 1 of your Q and R, he wind-walls it, and then you can use the 2nd one. Or you pop your stacks with your 3rd spell, that works too. Your example is not really convincing, and there is nothing specific about the skills you mentioned, there are plenty of other skills that you have to play around, like Illaoi ult, Morga/Lux snare, Blitz grab, etc.

My Waifu Vanilla6 votes

People don't like approaching each laning phase differently and just want to auto pilot and not think. The second they have to lane against some sort of minigame or mindgame they lose their head because they actually have to use it (oh no I can't just QWER recklessly in this match up ff@20). Champions like Illaoi, Yasuo, Fiora, Blitzcrank, etc. are necessary to this game because they offer unique gameplay that makes each game/laning phase different.

Are these champions well designed around these minigames? Not necessarily, but to mindlessly complain about them for the sake of "Yasuo Windwall OP since I can't just QWER him like every other possible lane opponent" is a foolish and poor argument to stand behind. Yes, Yasuo does have many favorable match ups but I cannot think of any more than perhaps 3 that are 90% or higher success rate in lane for Yasuo (basically unwinnable). You can usually always bait the Yasuo to windwall or just straight up farm and have your jungler gank him since he is a fairly easy gank (can't E towards his tower if he is pushed).

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