I get that you don't wanna knee-jerk nerf anymore

I think Fiddles is just enjoying a nice influx of play after having almost no play time since Runeglaive was made. I think it makes sense for it to have a higher MS considering junglers need it more than mages.

{quoted}

Runic echoes should be nerfed, becouse it obviously buffed ap junglers to much.

For example fiddle - 54 % win rate from about 48% one

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?search=fiddle

In my opinion, Jungle Echoes shouldn't have higher MS then Ludens echo has. I think Udyr r (phoenix) demage should be lowered a little bit, so he would be forced to choose between extra moblity and demage early game.

That doesn't prove Runic is OP, it proves that Fiddles has an actual jungle item now and can actually be played

{quoted}

Runic echoes should be nerfed, becouse it obviously buffed ap junglers to much.

For example fiddle - 54 % win rate from about 48% one

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?search=fiddle

In my opinion, Jungle Echoes shouldn't have higher MS then Ludens echo has. I think Udyr r (phoenix) demage should be lowered a little bit, so he would be forced to choose between extra moblity and demage early game.

I would not be that concerned about Fiddle, the player base generating the samples still is about 1/3 people with over 125 ranked games with him. That is why he had about 50% win rate with worse itemization, the experience level of people playing him is heavy on the highly experienced side. Now if more people with little or no experience start playing him and the win rate does not decline noticeably then there is a problem.

Honestly he wasn't exactly balanced before echoes. Devourer Udyr had the same effect, it was just less tanky due to the lack of AP ratios and slower because of the lack of huge movement speed increase.

What it comes down to is no matter what he builds, he can outclear, outduel, outpush, and outrun any other jungler.

If you want to 1v5 that's what we have Juggernaut Yi for lol