Why am I forced to build redemption/locket on supports ?

option paralysis·Mar 13, 2017·66 votes·5,581 views

I've been playing only support this season and got from plat 3 to diamond 2. I like the role, but every game I feel like I'm being forced into buying redemption and locket, they're just too strong compared to other items, and if you go for something else like ardent/athenes/zz/banner/mikaels and even zhonya sometimes, you're just hurting your team. Especially if the enemy team has redemption/locket, and they always do. Games don't even last long enough to get any other item after those 2, so I'm just stuck every game with the same items over and over again. Idk what would be the solution, adding new items, or buffing old ones, but I know that right now, the itemization is stale and pretty boring.

110 Comments

Titanium70Mar 13, 201726 votes

It's not just Supps, though.

Riot did a pretty 'good' job making sure everyone has a stale set of Item they cannot ignore.

item 3165 for Mages, for example.

Maybe it feels a little worse on Supps because of their limited amount of Gold - however, nearly all classes share this issue right now.

ExalomaniacMar 13, 20172 votes

And item 3142 or item 3031 for ADCs...

luna is my mommyMar 13, 20172 votes

I main ezreal

Thief of SpaceMar 13, 20172 votes

Then its item 3042 with item 3078 or item 3025 for us Ezreal players lul.

RalanrMar 13, 20178 votes

I wouldn't so much say it's an issue. I don't see what's wrong with having a core item, I just have problems when the entire build doesn't really change depending on the game.

Titanium70Mar 13, 201712 votes

It wouldn't be that much of an issue under normal circumstances.

However Riot is shouting over and over again they change/buff/nerf Items for the sake of BUILD-DIVERSITY!

I dont feel like that when locking in a AP-Caster these days. I get Morello, the faster the better.

I remember Season5 when I had a bunch of viable options at my disposal. item 3020 item 3136 / item 1057 / item 3070 item 3010 / item 3165 / item 3116 / item 3157 /Tripple item 1056

Right now it's Morello or RIP. Most Mages were changed in a way a ManaBuild is unnecessary, because thinking about resource is called 'not fun' these days. And CDR became a quite opressive stat while doing so. The more on Mana you need when getting it is completely covered by Moreelo.

Additionally getting item 3802 is basicly a free win against any other build path you could choose.

RalanrMar 13, 20173 votes

I think when Riot means they want build diversity, they mean that they don't want people to have basically three core items at once in their builds.

Like this lethality bullshit.

BLACK REALM GODMar 14, 20173 votes

i think you're right on the money. the only way theyll ever do that though is if they make it so that you can only buy 1 of each type of item and then sort out all of the items to split from the same core items.

so for example how trinity force builds from sheen, stinger, and phage? well sheen has like... 3 options, phage has 2, and stinger has 2.

sheen+phage = x

phage+stinger = y

sheen+stinger = z

x+stinger = trinity force y+sheen = trinity force z+phage = trinity force

since sheen builds from sapphire crystal with no additional items it affects build patterns by throwing in random stats passives and actives that just get tossed or multiplied to cause a huge amount of overloaded items.

a long time ago i made a post about how i wish the base stat items :

item 1036 item 1052 item 1033 item 1029 item 1051 item 1001 item 1042 item 1028 item 1027 item 1006 item 1004

were used to combine into every form of item in the game like this

basic items = a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k = 11 items tier 2 basic items = a+a=A = 11 more items tier 3 basic items = A+a=A! = 11 more items

combination items tier 1 = a+b=ab = 55 more items combination items tier 2 = A+B=AB = 55 more items

synthesis items ab+c = abc = 165 more items.

fusion items A+b=Ab = 55 more items

total = 363 items.

currently there are 220-ish items in the game and yet players feel that there aren't enough. i feel that with this systematic approach there would be plenty of items in game.

also i would go so far as to even change the name "critical" to "precision" and have it represent penetration and criticals depending on the items combined with it. so for example magic pentration boots would be a AP+movement+precision. critical strikes would be penetration plus attack speed.

here is a list and description of the stats i would use - the names are changed but the stats are pretty much the same.

hp = max health hp regen = the gain of health mana = maximum mana mana regen = the gain of mana speed = the time it takes to act movement = the rate of distance traveled strength = a modifier for physical numbers spirit = a modifier for magical numbers precision = makes character deadlier nullification = makes magic numbers weaker armor = makes physical numbers weaker

cooldown would be speed plus spirit. lifesteal would be something like hp regen plus strength boots would need to be reworked since currently boots can only be bought 1 time and arent upgradeable anymore. so it would have to be adjusted so that only boots can be built from boots or something similar.

PMMEAATROXBUFFSMar 14, 20172 votes

Hey can you link me the thread the idea seems interesting

SnazzyTheMisterMar 14, 20171 votes

isnt this what dawngate did?

they pushed it even farther with one stat called power that was basically both ad and ap, they also had a stat haste that was attackspeed cooldown and movespeed all in one.

this was balanced by how effectively each champion used those stats. so like for some characters more power meant more auto attack damage while for others it was more in their spell damage.

another fun thing they did was items only had passive effects and all the powerful actives were pushed into the "summoner spell" like system.

Flawless FetusMar 14, 20171 votes

It's a core item on every single mage. That is a bit problematic, isn't it? Every champ will have their core. But every champ having the same core is odd.

RalanrMar 14, 20171 votes

Not really since AP builds haven't really been known for their diversity.

Whichever build is good on one midlane mage rarely isn't good on another.

Flawless FetusMar 21, 20171 votes

Just because it's normal doesn't me it's not problematic. If every single mage has the exact same build, there is no point in them having access to items. Like HoTs. Lol.

HäßlichMar 13, 201710 votes

Try playing tanky supports? I see you pretty much only play Soraka, so it's no wonder your itemization feels stale; your champ selection is as well.

option paralysisMar 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Try playing tanky supports? I see you pretty much only play Soraka, so it's no wonder your itemization feels stale; your champ selection is as well.

Yeah, that's true too. However, even on tanky supports you need to build those 2 items nevertheless. On playing other supports tho, I'll try but every time I play something other than Soraka and my adc is like 20% hp and needs to recall, I'm saying to myself: well, if I was playing Soraka, he'd be full hp right now. XD

HäßlichMar 13, 20172 votes

Yeah, Soraka is really strong right now, especially with all the healing amp gear available, but the glaring weakness I keep running into when she's on my team is that she lacks quality, reliable CC. Her poke is even subpar, unless you're really good with her.

Nobody in the game can touch her healing output though... 200 + 60% AP on a 1.2s cd (at 40% and rank 5) + healing amp + ult + Redemption. Since Exhaust got wrecked, I've been running Heal on my supports too, and it works great, so she can even add that too.

The problem is that nobody wants to play tanks or CC mages. It's all squishy assassins and mobility carries, so when they get caught (all the time), they die--often times even through an emergency Soraka ult. However, when I'm the tank (or at least bruiser) and my duo partner is playing Soraka behind me, we tend to carry teamfights. Would still like it if her CC was a touch better since she has almost no damage.

HeroquetMar 13, 20173 votes

Try to play a little of sona if you want a support able to magnify his kit without redemption and locket.

Something like Athene + Censor + boots + Eye is a good start to go the path of healing, and could be your build for most games if you like it.

It doesn't look much, but athene works as a healing sheen / lichbane on her - it can double your healing output and do it consistently. And her heal / shield scales better with AP than + % heal / shield, so censor is a great add-on.

From then you can pick whatever you need. I'll suggest lichbane if your team needs help to burst something asap (vayne is my go-to example), rylai if you need to peel against a juggernaut (you can almost permaslow with that by lategame), IBG if you feel the armor / slow could help you, or more traditionnal support items if you choose to. Or grab a NLR if you feel like it, since you scale really hard with AP.

You won't heal as much as soraka of course, and you'll never burst heal as well as soraka, but you become more of a team support - and an awesome one. Try to time your heals so you also shield the incoming damage - it goes a long way to win fights.

Hope this helped ^^

SkiasMar 14, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Try playing tanky supports? I see you pretty much only play Soraka, so it's no wonder your itemization feels stale; your champ selection is as well.

You are still required to build those two items.

PsybicilinMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Try playing tanky supports? I see you pretty much only play Soraka, so it's no wonder your itemization feels stale; your champ selection is as well.

If you play tanky supports you should still buy redemption and locket lol

normie sIayerMar 13, 201710 votes

"why am i forced to build the strongest support items on support?" https://media.tenor.co/images/fb3f2d1e814190100a4ae401b1660d5b/tenor.gif because theyre the strongest support items...

WoodakoodashoodaMar 13, 20179 votes

Redemption was a mistake in all honesty. It isn't optimal on all supports, only healing ones, but it is used on all supports. (Inb4 ~~APC Bots~~ AP Supports).

Even if other items were added to the game for the specific purpose of optimizing non-healer supports (most of them). Redemption remains too strong to not build it.

HäßlichMar 13, 20173 votes

I disagree. Even if you say "inb4 AP supports," you can't ignore them. Annie Zyra Ziggs should not be building it.

SalronMar 13, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. Even if you say "inb4 AP supports," you can't ignore them. should not be building it.

A lot of people get locket redemption even on ap supports after core items They're just that good

HäßlichMar 13, 20171 votes

You have some data for that, or is just your experience? Mine hasn't been what you are claiming, and those supports that do tend to lose (of the ones I've seen, that is).

SalronMar 13, 20176 votes

Brand has a redemption in his highest winrate build http://champion.gg/champion/Brand/Support Same size isn't that great but it's a thing that people do

Thing about Zyra and Brand is that once they have sorc + rylai + liandries/void they can get whatever they want because they mostly need just magic pen to deal damage

But yes, this is mostly from experience

LawUrDepravdHartMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JkL452mt,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-13T13:47:35.379+0000)

A lot of people get locket redemption even on ap supports after core items They're just that good

A lot of people would be not be buying items with gold efficiency in mind. Brand, annie, zyra, and ziggs cannot make use of the 10% bonus to heals and shields in redemption. They can build it if they like because of the active component, but generally they want to do a ton of dmg and delete squishies with liandries, rylais, etc. It's a judgment call they have to make.

Locket is all around a good item to make a support tankier and provide a shield for the team. It's good on pretty much any support... But it has to be backed up by a health item now because Locket doesn't give hp anymore... just resistances. So its also better to get on tank supports who get a lot of hp from their relic shield upgrade.

SalronMar 13, 20173 votes

The 10% bonus will go toward the item actives tho

FilDaFunkMar 13, 20179 votes

Rito said people preferred flashy active items on supports, rather than passive auras. By that they meant they prefer flashy support plays in lcs, rather than actual support players.

I think they added this to make the support role more desirable, but ended up forcing a build.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 14, 20171 votes

To be fair they're not wrong. I just hate when I have 6 actives lol. 1-2 are fine and fun but that's it

FilDaFunkMar 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JkL452mt,comment-id=00110001,timestamp=2017-03-14T04:43:54.383+0000)

To be fair they're not wrong. I just hate when I have 6 actives lol. 1-2 are fine and fun but that's it

Locket, I think, is probably the best one as the tank or the support usually take it - the team will buy the items, and these are not forced onto the support. While actives are nice, I really don't think the support should be the one that is forced to build all of them, but this is mostly due to the stats it grants.

Rather than aiming active items at solely supports, Rito should make actives that could appear on different roles (ap/ad/tank), this will not force supports into 6 actives.

My build usually looks like: Locket, Redemption, Mikael's, Talisman, Ruby sightstone (because it synergises with the cds). I don't think I should be entirely negative, so I'll say that the utility offered by these items is quite great, and I think I can coordinate these actives effectively since I don't have to worry about killing the enemy team - Supports are the key to teamfights with these items.

THE RlVER KlNGMar 13, 20177 votes

because they are both busted as fuck lmao

putting ult-worthy actives on cheap as fuck items is not a good move

TusutakiMar 13, 20176 votes

The only champions I dont build redemption or locket on are Probably Sona and Naut.

Sona I usually rush Ardent because the buffs made it extremely strong throughout the game since it has the potential to be applied to multiple allies constantly. An extra plus if majority of your team is auto based. I also build athenes on her to increase her healing during fights.

With Naut i've been experimenting with the new Stonebound. So i've been building Knights Vow, Sunfire, Athenes, and Chilly Mittens. Why Sunfire and Athenes? Sunfire builds Athenes and your Stonebound procs Athenes. Pretty neat and fun combo where Athenes and Stonebound combined could heal 10k in a game.

While I do think Redemption and Locket are strong items, I dont think they're strong enough to overshadow the others. Popularity doesnt always mean Quality.

However I feel that ZZ Portal, Banner, and Mikaels could use some small adjustments. I hate ZZ's small range and wish Mikaels has a mini athene passive at least. I dont know what I would do with Banner though.

HäßlichMar 13, 20171 votes

Yeah, I've had some good luck recently with the new Bond of Stone on Nautilus, Thresh, Nunu. It's actually super strong on Nunu because it synergizes so hard with his W (Blood Boil). Add Zeke's, and it's good times. Only problem is that Nunu's early lane phase is pretty weak, so you and your adc have to be real careful. At 6+ it gets really good, though.

TusutakiMar 13, 20171 votes

How does Stonebound work with Nunu's bloodboil when Stonebound only works when you CC enemy champs?

Glory ln DeathMar 13, 20171 votes

Snowball an enemy to get Stonebound on them, the Bloodboil your ally so they can auto faster and heal more.

HeroquetMar 13, 20171 votes

Wait. Since stonebound is a heal over time, you don't heal more by hitting more, you just refresh the duration, isn't it?

Glory ln DeathMar 13, 20171 votes

40% of the heal is on-hit, the rest is over 2 seconds. Every time you auto the marked target, you get the full on-hit heal and refresh the over-time portion.

5000000000000000Mar 14, 20171 votes

Wow, I didn't know that. Do you know how it interacts with spells?

Glory ln DeathMar 14, 20171 votes

It only works with auto-attacks. Not sure if it interacts with on-hit spells, though.

5000000000000000Mar 14, 20171 votes

welp, I guess I'll stick with colossus in a non-marksman bot lane.

SilverjustMar 13, 20172 votes

what do you mean with sunfire? I did not understand

I think they should change banner, so the buffed minion would generaly be more tanky and not imune to magic damage.

HäßlichMar 13, 20173 votes

Magic immunity is huge, because mages normally have the most wave clear, not AD users. It almost reads "Bring your adc to kill this thing."

SilverjustMar 13, 20171 votes

but when the enemies have an ad toplaner it is useless

HäßlichMar 13, 20171 votes

No, it isn't. One of its best uses is to just afk push a lane while you control the rest of the map/objectives, or pressure their inhibs.

SilverjustMar 13, 20172 votes

but it still can easily be cleared why not make it only damageable by basic attacks or imune to AOE?

Blackstone01Mar 13, 20172 votes

It's not easy to clear at all. Even AD tops, excluding some ad stackers, aren't exactly going to be shredding it apart. The strength of it isn't exactly that it's killing a turret or champion, it's that it's forcing somebody to deal with it who normally might be helping the team. ZZ did the same thing before it was gutted. Pushed the wave enough that somebody had to go deal with it.

DarkRitualMar 13, 20174 votes

I still rush redemption on support Shen. It feels bad when it's still a really good buy on a non-mana user support.

CorvidMar 13, 20172 votes

Ive been maining nami lately, and Im loving redemption. I usually get to full items, just because I only pick up support items

I find redemption really fun. I dont always build locket

Ariel the CruelMar 14, 20172 votes

Because support (role) is just an item mule for the team. It doesn't get enough gold or experience to be awesome with everyone else, and required stat efficiency means their items can never be strong without breaking the game. It's been this way since the EU meta took hold (1-1-1-2) in S1.

It just feels worse right now because supports have more income than ever (excluding pre-S4), but are still item mules.

dim2aApr 29, 20172 votes

Early in the season I tried to move to support secondary (once it was clear I'll still be getting my primary role more often than not), but this is one of the reasons I decided not to. With these 2 items, I feel like there are fewer viable build paths for most supports than there used to be, so itemization feels boring.