I'm more scared of Singed running at me than Volibear. +A dissertation on Juggernauts as a whole.

PopcornBunni··33 votes·1,900 views

Volibear is weak. That's no secret. But beyond being weak currently, even when the meta is favorable to him, he doesn't invoke a feeling of oncoming danger a giant bear in power armor should. Even in a setting with ghosts and demons, the idea of an electric super bear should be an intimidating presence, but he doesn't reach those moments in actual gameplay, even when he has two move in his kit dedicated to blasting into people at full speed and tearing them apart.

Volibear is a juggernaut, and I think the other characters in his class can be looked at to see some common trends that set them apart from divers like Olaf.

DrMundo Darius Garen Illaoi Chogath Nasus Urgot Udyr Trundle Shyvana

These are the characters to which I refer when looking for common trends. Mordekaiser is also a juggernaut, and Cho'Gath is an odd case since he has chain cc, but otherwise there is a common throughline for this class that sets them apart from other melee damage dealers and tanks.

Wardens, like Braum Poppy Shen, have a common thread of preventing the enemy from getting in Divers, like Vi JarvanIV Aatrox, have a common thread of having tools to get in and deal heavy damage with some crowd control Vangards, like Alistar Leona Gragas, have the common thread of having tools to get in and lock targets down with crowd control Skirmishers, like MasterYi Fiora Jax, have the common thread of getting in and dealing heavy sustained damage to single targets Melee Assassins, Fizz Talon etc, have the common thread of getting in and out with heavy burst damage to single targets

Now, the dueling power of each of these classes differs between each character, but in general, Juggernauts have the best combination of damage and defenses, with Wardens coming in close behind, having lower offenses but usually greater defenses. Following wardens, and beating them in trades, are the skirmishers, built for long fights with the tankier characters. The divers, vanguards, and assassins, have a kind of rock-paper-scissors relationship, with vanguards beating assassins, assassins taking out divers, and divers (usually) chunking vanguards with a combination of armor pen and focused damage.

So with the key defining features of the melee classes as put forth thus far combined with the hierarchy of their dueling power, it leads me back to my list of juggernauts above. If a diver is to a vanguard, both diving in but one focused on preventing the enemy from acting and the other on dealing damage, then a juggernaut is to a warden.

A warden's job is to prevent the enemy from getting in Thus, with the juggernauts above we can see a common thread of preventing the enemy from getting away

Garen has a silence to prevent dashes, tenacity to shrug off roots meant to buy his enemy time, and a speed boost of his own. DrMundo's main gimmick is running people down with cleavers Illaoi's E minigame raises a catch 22 of stay and eat shit or run and get punished for it and so on.

The point being this class has a tendency to have light cc in the form of strong slows or pulls (Volibear Darius Trundle to a degree) meant to keep the enemy next to them. They say "Fight me. Don't run. We're fucking fighting." Darius reinforces this further with his Q being much stronger when an opponent tries to get away from his pull.

And then let's look at Volibear himself. He has a speed burst with his Q, which also has a handy throw behind attached to keep enemies close, and a slow from his E. Finally his W and R are dueling tools buffing his auto attacks. So he has the makings for a good representation of a juggernaut. His passive even rewards him for sticking through long duels with its life regen.

The problem is just as the title and opening say though. He just doesn't command the kind of respect he should, and when he is good it is usually a result of just power leveling ahead of his jungling competition rather than a result of his kit itself being strong for dueling in lane or in ganks.

I have my own thoughts on some changes that could be made to the bear, but don't want to make this thread an advertisement for my own balancing whims. I'd rather see your thoughts on him. If there is enough interest I'll put down my ideas for him later.

24 Comments

IvernBramblefoot31 votes

MORE LIKE JUGGER-NOT AMIRITE FOLKS

Mordepool11 votes

I can't help but feel Juggernaut is the tag riot uses for troublesome champions they throw in a dumpster. Remember the Chogath rework that catapulted him into pick/ban most hated. Conviently tagged as a Juggernaut now

EbonyBladeJ885 votes

Excuse me for getting possibly over-analytical here, but he's actually under the "Specialist" classification, at least according to the Wiki.

"Specialists are a diverse group of champions who do not "fit into a neat little box" in regards to other class/subclass specifications."

That's what it says about them.

In regards to Cho, he's REFERRED to as a Juggernaut simply because he has a number of things in common with them (Especially with that scaling damage his ult does ever since that one update he got). This is because he has great defensive capabilities, as well as great damage capabilities. But he also has more CC than a Jugg (Knock-Up AND Silence) so he doesn't fit with them. But also with the above-mentioned damage capability, he doesn't fit with Wardens or Vanguards.

I personally think Riot just lumps him in with the other "Specialists" because he, like most of the others are simply "We don't know what to do with these folks, until we finally just give them VGUs". That's just MY take on it.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

Excuse me for getting possibly over-analytical here, but he's actually under the "Specialist" classification, at least according to the Wiki.

"Specialists are a diverse group of champions who do not "fit into a neat little box" in regards to other class/subclass specifications."

That's what it says about them.

In regards to Cho, he's REFERRED to as a Juggernaut simply because he has a number of things in common with them (Especially with that scaling damage his ult does ever since that one update he got). This is because he has great defensive capabilities, as well as great damage capabilities. But he also has more CC than a Jugg (Knock-Up AND Silence) so he doesn't fit with them. But also with the above-mentioned damage capability, he doesn't fit with Wardens or Vanguards.

I personally think Riot just lumps him in with the other "Specialists" because he, like most of the others are simply "We don't know what to do with these folks, until we finally just give them VGUs". That's just MY take on it.

While I agree with your post. at the time when Riot was under public scrutiny they threw him into the Juggernaut bin as soon as he proved problematic. If they changed that since I didn't see. I just saw the bus chucking at the time

EbonyBladeJ881 votes

{quoted}

While I agree with your post. at the time when Riot was under public scrutiny they threw him into the Juggernaut bin as soon as he proved problematic. If they changed that since I didn't see. I just saw the bus chucking at the time

I understand. I just got the info I posted from the Wiki as well as double-checking the "Taking another look at Subclasses" post to make sure I was right before I posted the comment.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

I understand. I just got the info I posted from the Wiki as well as double-checking the "Taking another look at Subclasses" post to make sure I was right before I posted the comment.

I lost alot of my bookmarks when my phone died. It's hard to track down 3 year old posts

Sp33d Zer05 votes

I feel like Singed should be considered a juggernaut, even if not a conventional one.

I Main Swain3 votes

for me as far as the intimidating feel goes its because of how weirdly smooth and goofy all his animations are. they arent very bear-like. his q movement animation is a weirdly slow looking run thats equally weirdly smooth like hes caressing the ground, his normal walking animation is equally awkward looking, and his attacks look like slaps

TheThundersRoar5 votes

Bears are pretty goofy IRL :P

revliledpembroke2 votes

So, tanks, fighters, and assassins. Got it.

Honestly, I know everyone is all gung-ho about these relatively new terms for champions Riot is using, but, well, I don't see the need for it. Leona is a CC tank. Braum is a support tank. Vi and J4 are fighters (who could be played as engage tanks or assassins). Everyone can tell exactly what that character does from those descriptions.

Now, what's the difference between a skirmisher and a diver? Can everyone who has not read Riot's definitions tell you the difference? Is a diver an assassin who jumps onto one guy in the back line and then swims (diving, swimming, trying to fit the metaphor) back out to safety? Is a tank that locks someone down? Is it a guy with a SCUBA tank? You don't know!

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I know everyone is all gung-ho about these relatively new terms for champions Riot is using, but, well, I don't see the need for it.

Edgy. item 3031

Now, what's the difference between a skirmisher and a diver? Can everyone who has not read Riot's definitions tell you the difference?

Yes , a Diver goes in to jump the backline and doesn't come out. A Skirmisher is basically just a "Melee Carry".

To put it lightly,. a Skirmisher is more on the assassin end of the Fighter spectrum whereas a Diver is more on the Vanguard (initiating tank) end of the spectrum. This is without reading any notes before coming here to respond to your post. it isn't hard to grasp.

revliledpembroke2 votes

You did notice I said you could confuse a Diver with a guy wearing a SCUBA tank, right? That's called humor. You may not have heard of such a concept, but it does exist.

Shit, I should have said that some people might confuse Nautilus for a diver. DAMN IT!

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

You did notice I said you could confuse a Diver with a guy wearing a SCUBA tank, right? That's called humor. You may not have heard of such a concept, but it does exist.

I'm are of what humor is. I just only laugh if the humor is actually good enough to make me do so.

And for the record, the name was something even I made fun of. Except, when i did so, it was a legitimate complaint. Even made a topic about it. It isn't a very creative "joke".

[sg-ahri-3]

Shit, I should have said that some people might confuse Nautilus for a diver. DAMN IT!

see now THAT's a bit more creative. keep it up, lol [sg-ahri-2]

Shuriman Curator1 votes

Honestly, it's pretty sad that he fell off the face of the Earth.

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

I don't think Juggernauts can actually be that strong of a class just due to their slow nature. Mobility is one of the most valuable assets a champ can have and gives them so much more to work with. They need to be able to bring the enemy to them. That's why I think DrMundo and Olaf are the best Juggernauts even though they both have their own problems. Mundo is rewarded for hitting cleavers with a strong slow that lets him get in to auto and W. Olaf is a juggernaut who is also rewarded for hitting his Q.

One possible way they could give Juggernauts better access to targets to make them more viable would be to give them some skills that let them do just that, but that have drawbacks for using them. In exchange for being CC immune, Olaf loses the passive resistances on his ultimate. Or something like Blitzcrank's W that gives a big speed boost, but slows himself heavily afterwards.

They need some way to be able to outplay mobility without just having massive numbers to stat ball you if they ever do get in range.

PopcornBunni1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JdM8o1hR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-01-30T05:07:46.193+0000)

I don't think Juggernauts can actually be that strong of a class just due to their slow nature. Mobility is one of the most valuable assets a champ can have and gives them so much more to work with. They need to be able to bring the enemy to them. That's why I think DrMundo and Olaf are the best Juggernauts even though they both have their own problems. Mundo is rewarded for hitting cleavers with a strong slow that lets him get in to auto and W. Olaf is a juggernaut who is also rewarded for hitting his Q.

One possible way they could give Juggernauts better access to targets to make them more viable would be to give them some skills that let them do just that, but that have drawbacks for using them. In exchange for being CC immune, Olaf loses the passive resistances on his ultimate. Or something like Blitzcrank's W that gives a big speed boost, but slows himself heavily afterwards.

They need some way to be able to outplay mobility without just having massive numbers to stat ball you if they ever do get in range.

I'll use that as an opportunity o post my ideas for Volibear now.

Chosen of the Storm (Passive) Triggering threshold 30% health -> 40% health.

Without changing the amount of health recovered, a quality of life change to make hsi passive actually proc in time before he dies. By moving the threshold up, he can actually recover health when he hits that low health amount. Won't effect extended bouts to any major degree, just let him survive more against quicker burst cycles.

Taking a cue from the fear induced by Warwick and Evelynn, one change could be to his Q to make it a marking system.

Rolling Thunder (Q) New Passive effect: When moving toward visible enemy champions, slowly build up stacks of flat movement speed each half-second. (Speed per tick: 2/4/6/8/10; max bonus speed: 20/40/60/80/100) New Active: Marks an enemy champion or monster, granting Volibear 1.5x the normal max bonus movement speed when moving toward that target. When in range of the target, Volibear automatically flings them backward, applying on-hit effects. (Damage: 30/60/90/120/150 +100% AD). While on cooldown the passive effect is lost. Cooldown: 12/11/10/9/8 -> 14/13/12/11/11 Targeting range: 1500 New VFX: Large lightning sparking from Volibear's limbs when running with the active.

Frenzy (W) New effect: When frenzy is at max stacks, basic attacks on champions or large monsters reduce Volibear's cooldowns by 1 second each Max stacks: 3 -> 5 Attack speed per stack: 4/8/12/16/20 % -> 2/5/8/12/15% (Max bonus attack speed 12/24/36/48/60% -> 10/25/40/60/75%) Active damage bonus AD scaling: 0% -> 30% Cooldown: 18 -> 24/23/22/21/20

The goal here is to increase his dueling power without making his power farming the dominant strategy.

Majestic Roar (E) Cast type: AoE -> Aimed Cast shape: Circular -> Conical arc Cast range: 425 (radius) -> 600 (arc radius) Arc angle: 67.5 degrees Slow: 30/35/40/45/50% -> 40/45/50/55/60% New effect: The slow decays over its duration to 2/3 Cost: 60/65/70/75/80 -> 65 at all ranks Cooldown: 11 -> 14

A change to Volibear's supposed fear-inducing roar. By making the spell an aimed cone, it lets it have more range , making it a better tool to slow a retreating target with. It does make him have to position during his jungle clears, but that slight slowing down of his clear also shores up power budget for the rest of his kit.

Thunderlord's Invocation (R) (Renamed from Thunder Claws) Max enemies damaged by initial cast: 8 -> unlimited New effect: Enemies hit by the chain lightning effect take only 3/4 damage, but the target receiving direct hits receives 1.5x the initial damage New effect: Enemies effected by the chain lightning also take 50% total AD damage New effect: While active, also gain +50 attack range Cooldown: 100/90/80 -> 140/130/120

Slythrin Umbreon1 votes

Plot twist: Singed is now a Juggernaut

stealthfox941 votes

He needs a rework. His kit is one dimensional, yet anti-fun at the same time. The few times when he's been strong, he was a monstrosity to play against.

macromite1 votes

fixing voli would imply a rework methinks.

My best jab would be moving the run and flip to his passive, boosting stats to make up for lack of heal Creating a new ability to help him do damage in the early parts of fights, like a swipe that does damage based on his current health or something. Leave w about the same changing the roar to instead give some sort of short duration defensive buff rather than fearing minions. and letting the ult be about the same, if not just changing to to affect a large aoe around target rather than jumping randomly.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I have my own thoughts on some changes that could be made to the bear, but don't want to make this thread an advertisement for my own balancing whims.

Would have upvoted just for this, but on top of having outstanding moral fiber such as this, you also made a really awesome thread. Wish I could upvote twice as hard mate, good post. +1

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

Would have upvoted just for this, but on top of having outstanding moral fiber such as this, you also made a really awesome thread. Wish I could upvote twice as hard mate, good post. +1

Thanks, but it wasn't as selfless as you might think. I just know from experience threads that go on about a person's own views on how to fix a champion don't get nearly the kind of traffic as ones that offer up more room for discussion, and wanted this thread to offer that discussion up.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

All good dude, it's a quality post regardless of your motivations behind it. And you presented it in a great way to promote discussion, so you accomplished your goal :)

ÈvilMorty1 votes

Right now volibear is a discount warwick and that makes me sad as fuck

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