Nasus just proved that you need to completly break immobile bruisers to make them work

Ahristocats·Aug 18, 2017·154 votes·7,183 views

He's got 47% win rate in diamond+ despite having his Q cd reduced by half under ult, and E shreding 35% of the enemy team armor, and that is while counting low diamond, because if you go above it's even worse

but you can't buff him more because he's going to destroy low elo

What's the issue then? the issue is the entire game is totally hostile to immobile melee bruisers that do not have ranged spells like Mordekaiser Knock ups and Slows are everywhere Tenacity sucks all the dicks in the world Mobility creep is still real

the only immobile bruiser played in lcs is Trundle because he's an R bot in this meta LOL really makes you think

245 Comments

Sire HippingtonAug 18, 201733 votes

I thought cho already did proof that...

AhristocatsAug 18, 201772 votes

yes he did, but cho has ranged spells

HäxelAug 18, 20172 votes

chos rangespells are w and q. and q is a rly bad spell. while nasus has e and his w slow. These two champs are kinda similar. Diffrence is, that nasus mainspell is his q to farm with while cho farms with r.

AhristocatsAug 18, 201727 votes

how the fuck is his Q a bad spell when it deals 300+100% ap ratio?

DezellAug 18, 20177 votes

It's not BAD, but it is very easy to dodge (assuming you aren't in a laser light show disco rave teamfight)

OyddAWqJ5rAug 18, 20179 votes

Choke points, escape blockoffs, chained CC, slows, etc.

There are many ways to either reliably land Q or force your opponent into a bad situation with it.

ThefrostyvikingAug 18, 20175 votes

It might be a bit bad by itself however its great when used as a followup or to counter engages i think.

SpecterVonBarenAug 19, 20171 votes

If he's taking advantage of that ratio then he's not building bruiser now is he?

AhristocatsAug 19, 20176 votes

300 base damage is ridiculous

OnandagaAug 18, 201722 votes

They should make CC reduction/tenacity an actual stat and use it to replace CDR on most tank/bruiser items.

Big LincolnAug 18, 201717 votes

but I want CDR

My Waifu VanillaAug 19, 20176 votes

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too then. You can't have EVERYTHING given to you on a champion. The literal only downside to champions like Darius is the fact they can be kited. Everything else is put HEAVILY in their favor that they need ONE blatant weakness to not be a balancing nightmare.

Big LincolnAug 19, 20176 votes

huh? i would rather have cdr than tenacity, 'having my cake and eating it too'

The literal only downside to champions like Darius is the fact they can be kited.

sure, if you ignore the fact that they're completely obliterated by skirmishers and that Darius in particular has to ramp up in a fight before he becomes a significant threat. also that they're generally much easier to disengage from after being caught by one

juggs aren't even auto-win champions in the small range they're able to affect anything in. most of the time the threat of what they CAN do overshadows what they'll actually do

PoskeAug 18, 201720 votes

Completly agree

Main reason is the fact that defense atm is extremly irelevant. How many Nerfs Randiuns has gotten. Why was penetration formula reversed.. etc

** Unless you can reduce damage by % you ARE NOT A VIABLE MELEE champion**. Unless you are light fighter with bunch of tools Yasuo,Irelia,Riven,fizz (Though this suffers from lulu janna meta)

and LuLu + janna are the biggest fk you 2 melee champs

AirKingNeoAug 18, 20174 votes

Defensive isn't irrelevant. Tanks are really strong right now.

Big LincolnAug 18, 20175 votes

most tanks have resist scaling somewhere in there kit to double or triple or quadruple dip into defensive items. a lot of bruisers have something similar

some juggernauts have some health scaling by way of healing but otherwise they only get what they buy

ProfDrDeathAug 19, 20171 votes

That's, however, a trade-off for Juggernaut's damage output. They simply cannot have that damage while being equally tanky as to a true tank.

Big LincolnAug 19, 20173 votes

most of them aren't as tanky as true tanks, and the ones who are are only that tanky for short periods of time or are giving up a lot of their damage potential to do so

SalsonAug 18, 201713 votes

Let's see what Raid Bosses have in comon: -Lots of defense -Lots of damage -Slow as hell -Literaly made to fall

When you complain about Dark Souls bosses, people tell you to git gud. When you actually get gud, you can beat them without taking a hit.

So in the end, when you play the Raid Boss Nasus/Darius/Illaoi, you end up relying on your opponents being bad as much as on your own skill.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 18, 20171 votes

Idk the old demon king is really op atleast i'm kinda stuck there right now :(

GULAG 4 UAug 19, 20173 votes

r/darksouls:

GIT GUD

GandolfTheGreyAug 19, 20172 votes

Thisss. I literally used to tell my friends that my 70% win rate on Darius up to g2 on my other account was more due to the other player being bad as opposed to me being good. I'll be the first to admit I was going through practically identical motions back to back and although I did get good at him it was felt less like outplaying and more like overwhelming them and exceeding their skill cap to the point where they wouldn't know how to handle you. The juggernauts make you work and abuse certain niches in the game, but you can't deny they're extremely rewarding and scary when fed. At least their place is static and not all over the fricken spectrum like these ADCs that can assassinate, poke, sustained fight, and tank with the right items.

Very Hard EngageAug 18, 201712 votes

this all just stems from riot injecting CDR onto everyone giving people more access to their CC abilities.

game was just better when that wasn't the case.

Big LincolnAug 18, 20179 votes

tru, us bruisers need to have more to be on a level playing field with all these tanks adcs and mages

give us ranged spells or we riot, riot. hehe give us cc immunity too

CaptainSetoAug 18, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-18T13:48:59.150+0000)

tru, us bruisers need to have more to be on a level playing field with all these tanks adcs and mages

give us ranged spells or we riot, riot. hehe give us cc immunity too

CC immunity... no. I say that, because Fiddle is a mage who needs to constantly be putting himself close to enemies to deal his damage, and CC is a big weakness he has. Sure, it's annoying as hell to play Darius and get CC'd, but it's the main counterplay. The bigger issue is that Bruisers just don't have the survivability to get close. Hell, late game tanks are gonna have a bad time getting close.

Maybe give them like, a bit of damage resistance to ranged attacks or something. But complete Immunity to CC would be way too much. That would make them impossible to stop when they are chasing down ADC's, making Tank Supports and CC supports useless at their job.

Big LincolnAug 18, 20176 votes

oh no CC supports can now be countered every once in a while

what a tragedy hehe

ArakadiaAug 18, 20172 votes

I mean a lot of the comments here are asking for immobile bruiser's to lose their counterplay.

Variks the LoyalAug 18, 20176 votes

Not lose their counterplay, but give them a window of power where they can try and be effective.

If an item cleansed a champion of CC and made them immune to it for 1.5 seconds, for example, it would give them a window through which they could try and use their other tools to be effective.

Alternatively, increased Tenacity, or introduced Tenacity on some bruiser items, would go a long way since the game is rife with CC right now.

CC is dominating the meta, which isn't a bad thing, but Fighters need the proper tools to be effective in a meta where CC is dominant.

WoonStruckAug 18, 20178 votes

Let's be fair...Trundle's in LCS because of he's an E bot too.

Hexs FortuneAug 18, 20173 votes

What's diamond plus, less than 1 percent of the playerbase? So small a demographic that I wonder if it's even worth mentioning.

How's Nasus doing in gold and below?

AhristocatsAug 18, 201727 votes

he's between 49% and 50% win rate depending on which elo you take

also, why do you care about diamond plus being less than 1 percent of the player base? the game should be balanced around all elo ,riot said it multiple time, so if it's not balanced in diamond+ there is a problem

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 18, 20176 votes

the game should be balanced around all elo

?? i don't really agree. The game should be balanced for high elo (mean Diamond and above, that's my pov tho).

AhristocatsAug 18, 201713 votes

i didn't say i agree, that's just what riot said

i personally think it should be balanced around master tier/challenger tier just like in dota

Zero Skill TankAug 18, 20179 votes

And Riot maybe would follow their path if, you know, they didn't have like 9 times more players than they do.

Having all champions on equal footing at highest levels of play does not improve the game in any way that would make it worth, and Riot understands that. It doesn't even make the game more fair, because ultimately, when the game begins, you are never under obligation to pick an immobile fighter.

Sad - if you are both high-ELO and like playing some misdesigned champion like Nasus or all of old, immobile fighters - but true.

FiddlesOnTheRoofAug 18, 20179 votes

I agree. You don't balance the game around people who are bad at the game. Should be balanced around the best players and we should learn to play more like them.

ArakadiaAug 18, 201717 votes

I don't think we should balance the game around bad players.

We should however, balance around most players. You want as many people to feel like the game is fair, so you should balance around as many people as you can.

It does not make sense to balance around the top single digit or less % of players.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 18, 20172 votes

Of course it does make sense. Just because garen full crit/lethality stomps in silver doesn't make him an unbalanced/overpowered/unhealthy champ. Is it garens problem silver don't know what CC is or kiting? Or is it the players problem? It's the players weakness so why should we balance around the player who has weaknesses? HE should play better to overcome his weaknesses. I've hated garen, darius and the likes for a looong ass time until i got gud and peaked at D2 elo. Now i'm complaining about champs with high skill caps who are ACTUALLY breaking the game if the player is good enough to abuse its strengths to a point you can barely play around them like azir for example.

ArakadiaAug 18, 20175 votes

I'm not saying balance the game around bad players. I'm saying balance the game around the majority of players. Because a game should try to bring fun to as many players as possible, not the top single digit percent.

MorticianjohnAug 19, 20172 votes

I totally agree. While I do think some concessions should be made to make the game more bearable in low elo the vast majority of any balance changes should be based around the highest elo that you can get a good sample size on. I think Diamond 4 and higher should be a large enough group to make balance decisions.

PennsAug 18, 20172 votes

still dont understand why "tenacity sucks" hehe

Big LincolnAug 18, 201718 votes

tenacity sucks because CC has gotten more spammy and lower CD + usually lower duration than it used to have

all of this makes tenacity worse

AhristocatsAug 18, 201745 votes

you think you're going to be helped if you're being stuned for 1.3 sec instead of 2? hint: it will if you're mobile, it won't if you're immobile

and it doesn't work against knock ups/knock backs

PennsAug 18, 20173 votes

arent you supposed to be able to lock immobile tanky champs down with cc tho? its still gud vs syndra elise stun, thresh q, janna w, ashe ult and stuffz

AhristocatsAug 18, 201727 votes

{quoted}

arent you supposed to be able to lock immobile tanky champs down with cc tho?

no, you are supposed to flee from them because they're IMMOBILE you are also suppoed to cc them

but you're not supposed to stand in front of them, and laugh at them as they are eternally chained by the enemy team like a bitch

{quoted}

its still gud vs syndra elise stun, thresh q, janna w, ashe ult and stuffz

it isn't Syndra uses Q+E, stuns you and she+her team run away to reposition

how exactly as an immobile melee having the stun going from 1.5 to 1 sec is going to help you?

you know, when you're an immobile melee, being stunned, or not being stunned while no one is in range is the same

PennsAug 18, 20175 votes

well mercs are still a very good item against those champs, if anything make a new item for bruisers that helps them but dont buff tenacity.

but preferably not one that makes champs like Darius and Nasus with Phage completely unkiteable xd

AhristocatsAug 18, 201714 votes

phage is a band aid created by riot to help immobile melees, and it ended up garbage

i would gladly have phage nerfed/removed if we get an item helping immobile bruisers

Oni MasterAug 18, 20174 votes

Righteous Glory, bro.

AhristocatsAug 18, 201711 votes

has 90 sec cd and stops on the frontline, glory isn't like phage

ArakadiaAug 18, 201714 votes

Your not going to get an item or mechanic that makes your job super easy. Your choosing to be immobile and its a weakness you have to deal with.

That is literally like me saying that protobelt was a bandaid and Ludens only gives some small movement speed. Its not fair that mages are immobile right? Thats the weakness they have to play with.

And before you say, "Mages have got CC and range", which varies from mage to mage, other champions have tools to counter that. They have their own CC, their own range, mobility, spell shields, etc.

Bruisers are nothing special and while I do agree tenacity is/feels bad, and there is too much CC in the game, immobile melees have to have weaknesses too.

Big LincolnAug 18, 201713 votes

immobile melees have more built in weaknesses than most classes