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PSA: We need to clear this up, "Toxic" =/= "OP"

SwiftKitten88··40 votes·1,886 views

a champion having a "toxic" design or ability does NOT mean they are "OP"

Toxic" mean they ability/kit is aggravating to face, regardless of its strength. even when you easy are winning. it still ruins all the fun in the game.

being "toxic" is NOT a representation of strength.

being "OP" or "overpowered" means something is TOO STRONG

a champion can be "toxic" but not overpowered. a champion can be overpowered but not "toxic"

toxicity depends on the "KIT" or ability, and how aggravating is is to face regardless of strength, the counters it may have, or if you are winning or losing. being OP just means it is "too strong"

for example.. right now Volibear is very clearly "overpowered"

he has a bad design, becuase his kit is binary 0: i dont reach you and I'm useless" 1: i reach you and there isnt a power on this earth that can save you

meaning, if you make it so he can reach you. he is broken if you make it so he CAN'T ... he is worthless

this design needs a rework. not a buff or a nerf..

and because we are talking about toxicity i might was well bring in the most blatantly obvious champion that is without a doubt the most toxic champ in the game. Shaco

regarless of his state. if he is weak, strong, or balanced... he is an absolute nightmare to deal with. a absolrdy short cooldown summoner 4 that also turns him invisible , invisible boxes that hard CC you, A clone...

his entire kit is bacially design to troll you.. and piss you off... and even when your winning he is a pain to face. does he have counter play? sure he does, start item 3341 and sweep his blue buff at 1:15 to clear his boxes. play a champion that can grant true sight somehow. his counterplay although minimal compared to other some champs does exist. the point is even when you play properly his mere presence in the game ruins the fun.

another example is Yasuo even when balanced.. his mere presences ruins the game. does her have counteplay sure.. can it make it fun to face him? no...

yet change one ability is yasuo's kit such as his dash (such as dash through his own minions instead of yours, or make it so he cant use his Q mid dash) and make his wind-wall unidirectional so if you can actually get behind it you can shoot through it. he would be fine

then there is the ADC champs who are ALL "OP" because their itemization makes it so. (and the damage creep from runes damn-well makes everyone OP) but we have to keep a reference point... so in relation to everything else in the game ADC are "OP".

but this has nothing to do with thier kit. save from a few outliers (im looking at you Tristana ) who could easily lose the reset on assist or maybe be given a partial reset on a kill and not a full one.. or maybe have the reset scale with the level of rocket jump.

being "OP" does NOT make you a "toxic" champion.

it has certainly happened they riot made an ability toxic during a buff, and that then made a champion "OP".

but "toxic" and "OP" are NOT flat out interchangeable.

59 Comments

AmazoX16 votes

{quoted}

another example is Yasuo even when balanced.. his mere presences ruins the game. does her have counteplay sure.. can it make it fun to face him? no...

#Boards method 101 of farming up votes.

no to toxic3 votes

Nah not really to get upvotes you need to add "adc kills me" and talk about how Sivir is so overpowered cause your 0/10 Zed did´t manage to kill her after she got protected by her support and used both her summoner spellls.

ChaddyFantome14 votes

Additionally, something being broken =/= op

Kaìju2 votes

My definition of broken has always been a kit that just doesn't work because it innately just, contradicts itself or works too well and it isn't a numbers issue. Like to me a broken kit would be Riven, who if played by an experienced player is nearly uncontestable in a 1v1 skill match up. But her kit isn't overpowered because it's just locked behind one of the highest learning curves in the game mechanically. Am I onto something or am I way off?

AirKingNeo2 votes

But broken and OP are synonyms. You're saying two words that mean the same thing aren't the same.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

But broken and OP are synonyms. You're saying two words that mean the same thing aren't the same.

no they aren't tho. A broken champion is a champion that is flawed from a design perspective. This can make a champion too strong or even too weak as a result. (due to riot seither simply nerfing them into mediocrity or otherwise)

and OP champ is a champion that is simply too powerful, usually from a numbers perspective.

Daddy Ants6 votes

Akali toxic and OP.

Salson5 votes

another example is Yasuo even when balanced.. his mere presences ruins the game. does her have counteplay sure.. can it make it fun to face him? no...

There is nothing wrong with Top lane Yasuo. He is healthy as a counter to ranged champs, though a bit weak at the moment.

They can gut his MR or whatever, but let's not talk about nerfing a champ in a role where he is both balanced and healthy.

then there is the ADC champs who are ALL "OP" because their itemization makes it so. (and the damage creep from runes damn-well makes everyone OP) but we have to keep a reference point... so in relation to everything else in the game ADC are "OP".

Agreed, even the infamous 'Boards ADC Hate Train' is praising Jhin buffs and defending Varus's current strength.

To be honest, Marksman mains saying Twitch and Tristana are good champs would be the equivalent of me saying that Nasus, Tryn and Garen should define the Top lane meta.....which is retarded.

PB4UAME1 votes

Nothing wrong with Garen, he's actually rather weak and intentionally handicapped from high level viability. If he's ever defining the META, it's cause everyone else must have been nerfed to absolutely shit, and/or they removed half the game's CC and half the carries self peel.

DeusVult5 votes

for example.. right now Volibear is very clearly "overpowered"

he has a bad design, becuase his kit is binary 0: i dont reach you and I'm useless" 1: i reach you and there isnt a power on this earth that can save you

meaning, if you make it so he can reach you. he is broken

Volibear is a juggernaut, not a tank or a bruiser, but a juggernaut. If you look at all juggernauts, they are categorized by 1. High damage, low range 2. Low mobility, but sticking power when they do reach you 3. The stats to not get obliterated before they reach their target

Examples: Chogath Darius Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Urgot Volibear Yorick

All of these champs "walk" at you. If they reach you "there is no power on this earth that can save you." Except more peel, shields, thresh lantern. If a juggernaut reaches you, they will get the chance to kill you. That is what they get for spending 90% of the game getting kited and poked to oblivion

AmazoX3 votes

{quoted}

Volibear is a juggernaut, not a tank or a bruiser, but a juggernaut. If you look at all juggernauts, they are categorized by 1. High damage, low range 2. Low mobility, but sticking power when they do reach you 3. The stats to not get obliterated before they reach their target

Examples: Chogath Darius Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Urgot Volibear Yorick

All of these champs "walk" at you. If they reach you "there is no power on this earth that can save you." Except more peel, shields, thresh lantern. If a juggernaut reaches you, they will get the chance to kill you. That is what they get for spending 90% of the game getting kited and poked to oblivion

People already know this but they ignore all of this and complain about X juggernaut because they are too lazy to learn how to play around X juggernaut.

#Either way, thanks for putting effort into your comment, I like you.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

Volibear is a juggernaut, not a tank or a bruiser, but a juggernaut. If you look at all juggernauts, they are categorized by 1. High damage, low range 2. Low mobility, but sticking power when they do reach you 3. The stats to not get obliterated before they reach their target

Examples: Chogath Darius Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Urgot Volibear Yorick

All of these champs "walk" at you. If they reach you "there is no power on this earth that can save you." Except more peel, shields, thresh lantern. If a juggernaut reaches you, they will get the chance to kill you. That is what they get for spending 90% of the game getting kited and poked to oblivion

i can escape from all of those except Garen Volibear and possibly Yorick and Nasus .

Garen obvious stop it becuase his slience prevents summoner 4 damaging abilities, DASHES. meanwhile he is effectively immune to cc. yes he is just as bad as voli. but right now right now he isn't in a state that turns him into an unstoppable monster unless he is good at the champ.. (not that that takes very long to accomplish mind you) were as voli you pretty much just faceroll and win

HaIlMonitor1 votes

So honest question, why did they even make Juggernauts? Most of them have something that works as a really long CC like Nasus, Cho, Yorik. Or they move fast AF. Almost all of them you just flat out cant fight as melee, then if you are ranged and dont have something like Rylai's or 7 second hard CC, you wont kill them if they are near full build.

Why exactly are they considered bad at getting into fights? Whether the fight goes to them, or they run at 1000 miles per hour they generally win 1v1 or 2v2 or 1v4 (illaoi), they always seem to get to where they want in my games.

Salamencę3 votes

You really should use spell check before posting... lol

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

You really should use spell check before posting... lol

i normally go back and edit my spelling errors out, because i write long posts and i have lost quite a lot of them by somehow clicking some back button on my keyboard, so now i just post it and edit it to fix it.. i just don't always get back to to. i probably will go over this one a few times. and if its only spelling error that's not bad for me. i frequently made typos so bad even i have to think of wtf i was trying to say because was posted as complete and utter gibberish

Andrey03452 votes

and because we are talking about toxicity i might was well bring in the most blatantly obvious champion that is without a doubt the most toxic champ in the game. Shaco

even though his kit is toxic, his state is so garbage right now you just enjoy free 4v5 while he's "trolling" you.

tea tìme1 votes

{quoted}

even though his kit is toxic, his state is so garbage right now you just enjoy free 4v5 while he's "trolling" you.

But a good Shaco will not let his trolling get involved in losing the game. It's a matter of timing with Shaco.

Andrey03451 votes

[{quoted}](name=irene joy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXmcao5K,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-03-09T00:13:31.656+0000)

But a good Shaco will not let his trolling get involved in losing the game. It's a matter of timing with Shaco.

Yes, almost all Shacos that are left playing him are good, that's why his winrate is so high and he's "strong".

It's not about trolling, it's about champion being weak in general. Now with those compensation "buffs" his late is also getting nerfed.

EXE FallenKnight2 votes

I have never understood why its Yasuo windwall that people hate on the most, and not the fact that he literally DOUBLES crit percentage and can get 100% crit on TWO items, one of which being the item that BOOSTS CRIT DAMAGE. On top of that he is not required to build cdr because of the low cooldowns+his Q being reduced by attack speed. His windwall is honestly the least toxic thing in his kit IMO.

AmazoX4 votes

{quoted}

I have never understood why its Yasuo windwall that people hate on the most, and not the fact that he literally DOUBLES crit percentage and can get 100% crit on TWO items, one of which being the item that BOOSTS CRIT DAMAGE. On top of that he is not required to build cdr because of the low cooldowns+his Q being reduced by attack speed. His windwall is honestly the least toxic thing in his kit IMO.

Because his Critical Strikes have penalties that people intentionally ignore.

GripaAviara5 votes

Too small, the penalties. He is super strong, but due to super high dmg at in the game he dies to fast to capitalize in most cases

EXE FallenKnight3 votes

{quoted}

Because his Critical Strikes have penalties that people intentionally ignore.

hmmmmm, penalties to a damage boost is STILL more net output of damage because you are doubling the crit chance without halving the crit damage.

Jet Sett2 votes

How is Shaco the most toxic champion? I seriously don't get it.

GripaAviara4 votes

Joke's on you

LDG Jiambles6 votes

{quoted}

How is Shaco the most toxic champion? I seriously don't get it.

It's mostly his invis flash on a 10 second cooldown. His whole shtick is mindgames, which is fine and seperates a good Shaco from a mediocre Shaco, but it seems like it removes all agency from you. With most champs, there's a way to shut them down. You can stay close to your team and try to CC them from a distance, but Shaco is so slippery that it just feels bad. He has his Q which can get him out of most sticky situations. He has his boxes which stop you from chasing him for around a second. You have the slow on his E active. And then finally you have his clone. It can distract you, I don't know if it can block you anymore, but if you kill it, it will stop you for another second. It's not even that he's ridiculously strong, it's just that he feels bad to play against.

3TWarrior1 votes

I feel like for shaco, it's more that people don't want to pay attention to what they're doing. Most people can recognize that when a shaco is running directly at you, you are supposed to back away and hit it with ranged abilities

I rarely see people die from the clone, but it does seem sad when they lose 40% + of their health to it for no reason

also, you haven't played aram until a blitzcrank somewhere pulls in the shaco clone XD

Teridax682 votes

Well said. I personally much prefer to talk about a champion's design than their balance, and often I've had really unproductive interactions with other posters on here precisely because they were confusing the two. Personally, when I talk about a champion, I prefer to look at their performance beyond just current games, and see how they could evolve over time, and when I suggest potential changes to a champion's mechanics, I always specify that the champion should then be balanced accordingly to a good spot. In spite of this, however, I find myself getting downvoted or argued with more often when I propose design changes to a weak champion that, in isolation, would constitute a nerf, or when I suggest changes to overperforming champions that would buff them if applied on their own. This is even when I first mentioned that my intent is not to unbalance the champion, and even when I mention the same after a player claims I'm trying to gut X champion or make them OP.

Case in point: Warwick right now is really strong balance-wise, likely too strong, but I also firmly believe his Q and R could stand to improve a little: WW's ult hit box is a little awkward and often misses even when it looks like he's physically touching his target, whereas his unique Q mechanism is a tad clunky and could be made smoother to use. Because improving these features on him would constitute buffs, when I suggest these in the current environment, I take care to mention that I also want to nerf Warwick so that he has less raw power, namely by bringing down his base AD and/or on-hit damage + heal values. Nevertheless, suggestions like these have drawn criticism purely on the grounds that these changes would make him OP.

In general, when discussing paper mechanics and design changes, criticizing something because it would make someone OP or UP I feel ends up being kinda useless, not only because nobody in the discussion generally has the tools to verify such a claim (so it's one player's word against the other's), but also because often the intent of the person suggesting the changes isn't even to change the champion's balance. During those times, they will also usuallysay that the champion would likely require unspecified balance adjustments along the way, or at least assume that their kit would be balanced appropriately. Unless a person is specifically saying that they view a champion as unbalanced, and want to deliberately shift their balance towards a certain direction another player disagrees with, discussing balance in a design discussion is a bit like bringing up politics when everyone else is talking about sports. It's just not the same thing.

OHminus2 votes

Toxic: Zoe

OP: Original poster

Tokogawaruf1 votes

for the sake of the joke shouldn´t it be:

Toxic: Singed Cassiopeia OP: Original Poster

3TWarrior1 votes

Teemo : giggling intensifies

Elixors2 votes

item 3070 Singed item 3070

MorganFreemanBot2 votes

Write a post trying to describe what toxicity is. List off numerous champions who are the definition of non-toxic, and purely have numbers problems.

To put this in perspective, most of what's left in the game is individual abilities. There aren't many champions in the game (anymore) who are legitimately toxic, most of them have been reworked - minorly or majorly - to make this no longer the case.

What you're thinking of, with your examples, is annoying.

See, toxicity doesn't actually have anything to do with fun, because fun is wholly subjective. Some people will enjoy specific mini games and tug of wars, other people will find them annoying beyond belief and just want to farm. Some people will find poke playstyle the best thing ever, where as other people find them infuriating and would just prefer to all in every day every day.

One of the most common things I see on the boards, and in game, is people substiting "toxic" for annoying. They're not the same thing, at all. As such one very important point, which is often left out of this discussion, is what 'toxic' gameplay actually means.

Toxic gameplay, the same as what used to be dubbed anti-fun gameplay, is removing interaction from a game / lane. It warps situations to either be foregone conclusions (If X then Y, regardless of player skill) or entirely removes the ability to 'play around' a champion. I'll give you an example:

Pantheon has a toxic kit. He operates on the level of "Is enemy in X range? Enemy receives poke." This is heightened by him having another clause of "Is Enemy with X-Y range? Enemy eats hard CC and an unwinnable all-in trade." There is no real skill expression involved with leveraging his strengths and there's no skill involved with avoiding them. It's purely "step within bubble, get hurt".

This is further exacerbated by the fact that this bubble is not small by any means. Old Darius used to have this design; he had a VERY small zone, but he controlled the hell out of it. This meant that even though 'step within the bubble, get murdered' applied, many champions could effectively harass him from outside of that bubble, or at the very least keep him from getting them within it. This gave him counter play despite his design.

Pantheon doesn't have such a weakness. His kit removes interaction, creating a dynamic between laners which is purely "don't get within range", but the size of that range translates to "don't get any farm, struggle to even get xp."

Another good example is old Fiddle Support. Back in S3 fiddle became a top tier support because his Q, when maxed, was a point-and-click hard CC of 3 seconds. It had no travel time, it had no pretenses, just click and apply. This was toxic because you couldn't dive him or his carry (unless you were Olaf), nor could you escape them.

There are more examples (pre-rework heimer, pre-rework assassins, pre-rework Taric, pre-rework-rework-rework Xin)

Annoyance, on the other hand, is Zoe and Yasuo (among others). These champions are healthy from a design perspective; they encourage both players to interact, have defined strengths, and come with incentives to take risks for greater gains.

3TWarrior1 votes

what would you recommend be done about Pantheon? If he does not have enough armor pen, his damage suffers. His stats are also almost entirely early game to where he becomes almost nothing come mid and late game

Most tanks and fighters do well against pantheon because if they are in range of him, he is in range of them

For those situations, you are describing top lane. His real pressure comes as a jungler where he can do high damage to bottom and mid lane

I disagree with your view of healthy, at least in Yasuo's case. I am not familiar with Zoe, but yasuo follows your design of unhealthy gameplay perfectly. He is binary, does not interact well with his opponent (mostly dodges and places pressure on the lane while receiving free stats), can have free point and click crowd control (spin-dash knockup and ultimate) and to top it all off, he can negate over 70% of abilities in the game for over 2 seconds if he has the reaction time for it and is therefor a threat to engages

Now all melee have to be powerful to compensate for having melee range kits, but most follow the simple rule of the juggernaut, don't try to melee...with a melee whereas yasuo instead trades innate stats for optimal situational stats (free shield if not triggered, shield that renews upon use of ultimate, wind wall that negates 70% of all abilities in the game and makes all engages in favor of the opponent innately

how...is yasuo healthy gameplay but pantheon is not?

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

what would you recommend be done about Pantheon? If he does not have enough armor pen, his damage suffers. His stats are also almost entirely early game to where he becomes almost nothing come mid and late game

Most tanks and fighters do well against pantheon because if they are in range of him, he is in range of them

For those situations, you are describing top lane. His real pressure comes as a jungler where he can do high damage to bottom and mid lane

I disagree with your view of healthy, at least in Yasuo's case. I am not familiar with Zoe, but yasuo follows your design of unhealthy gameplay perfectly. He is binary, does not interact well with his opponent (mostly dodges and places pressure on the lane while receiving free stats), can have free point and click crowd control (spin-dash knockup and ultimate) and to top it all off, he can negate over 70% of abilities in the game for over 2 seconds if he has the reaction time for it and is therefor a threat to engages

Now all melee have to be powerful to compensate for having melee range kits, but most follow the simple rule of the juggernaut, don't try to melee...with a melee whereas yasuo instead trades innate stats for optimal situational stats (free shield if not triggered, shield that renews upon use of ultimate, wind wall that negates 70% of all abilities in the game and makes all engages in favor of the opponent innately

how...is yasuo healthy gameplay but pantheon is not?

With regards to Pantheon: Another factor is that toxic does not mean overpowered, or in some cases even strong.

Pantheon isn't super strong right now. He's basically an extraordinarily hard counter pick to a handful of champs, and other than that a cheese pick. He's not meta, he's not super strong, and his win condition is to close out the game early.

Toxicity also operates on a kit level. Pantheon's design, "enter large zone, get hurt." is bad design. The fact that he can be countered so hard only further reinforces this; his kit is too binary, it's very all or nothing with regards to whether he stomps or gets stomped. This is a sign that he and his MU's are not really skill; a champ either has the tools to make him irrelevant or he dumps on them. You either have the items to ignore him or he murders you. Skill isn't really a factor, you can't go into a match where he has an edge but end up out playing him by dodging his damage or countering his all in.

Breaking into Yasuo:

Yasuo is a very well designed champion despite all the memes of hatred.

Basically, Yasuo encourages a tug of war. Yasuo is trying to ration his defensive measures - one with a massive cooldown, the other of which he has no control over - to be able to kill his enemy in lane / farm to hit his power spike. Meanwhile his enemy is trying to weasel out those same measures in order to kill Yasuo / deny him farm so he's useless.

Yasuo has moments of extreme power; when he's holding his tornado and has the ability to dash to you. When he throws down his wall (which has a substantial cooldown) and is cuts off ranged opposition from a particular angle. He is attempting to leverage these moments of power into kills / pressure, while his enemy is trying to get him to waste them.

This is the very definition of good design. It creates a tug of war between the laners, where both have to interact with one another in order to achieve their goals.

Boards doesn't like to hear this, but CertainlyT is probably the best champ designer Riot has.

His champions are the absolute definition of healthy gameplay from a design perspective. They all define the champion's strength, make them interact with their enemy laner, and then also throw in reasons and encouragement for them to take further risks and put themselves in harms way for maximum rewards.

His champions also generally come with numbers problems and, in some cases, a few extra effects which need to be stripped away. This is not unique to him by any means. But design ideaology wise, he's head and shoulders above any other champion designer Riot has on their roster.

3TWarrior1 votes

so a healthy champion...throws the game into chaos, frustrates a large majority of the playerbase even when they play by his counter-methods, is one of the few champions that is entirely reflex-focused in a game that WAS a strategy game and creates multiple arguments continuously year after year since creation with his core identity focused around something which disturbs natural gameplay?

Thresh may be annoying, but he as well as several other champions do not fit into yasuo's level of misfortune to play with, as and against.

As an example, Zed is annoying because although skill dependent, he can still do what most other champions can not for free, but this is more of a numbers issue and an issue with gameplay itself that creates the problem and not really Zed.

Yasuo, however, forces the opponent to play his way and not to just play the game. This is the same issue which has come up with Gangplank, teemo, evelynn, EVERY MARKSMAN IN THE GAME(but that is a lesser evil because it was mainly efficiency which caused the problem), I'm not really sure about Illaoi, the former gragas (a numbers issue), Tryndamere (though he is so rarely played to a proper level, again, not sure if he counts), ziggs and now caitlynn

and even Aatrox at one point (another numbers issue) forced gameplay changes because either he was taken down or he would take your team down

Yasuo is not overpowered and might have issues with stats, but one thing is for sure, he is not fun to play against because he does not have to give up ANYTHING to have a drastic impact on the outcome of a match and most of that frustration comes from ONE CORE-CONCEPT of his design: The Wind Wall.

If he didn't have his wind wall, the free stats wouldn't be an issue. If he didn't have his wind-wall, his mobility to avoid damage and make engages would make more sense and would even let him be a bruiser instead of a carry.

Those are yasuo's issues. How does one change a champion whose core concept is their issue? it has been suggested to: make his wind-wall work like braum's shield or even give it a health value. It has been suggested to turn it into an offensive move instead of a defensive one so that some of yasuo's other traits can be given room for improvement, and I am sure there are many other reasonable suggestions for him to not change his core design

yet, here we are

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

-snip-

Boards do not represent a large majority of the player base. They represent an extremely loud group of baboons who fume and shout about everything they do not like, and they do not like anything.

Furthermore, Yasuo does not 'throw the game into chaos'. He hasn't even been an influential champion in comparison to most others.

Pro scene wise he had a brief time in the sun - basically one season - during which he was O.K. Yes, he was O.K. and not overpowered, in large part because he had (and still has) an absolutely crippling bug with his ulti; there is a brief delay between the CC effect of his R ending and the damage being applied, which can be zhonya's / defensive measures applied. I'm moderately certain that, if someone goes untargetable during this period, he doesn't even get his armor shred buff.

The whole "Yasuo is toxic!" is, at this point, basically just a meme. It's rhetoric which poor players, who refuse to look inwards and improve their play, vomit forth again and again as justification.

To tackle the main body of the point here: Most champions, depending on your role, effect the way you play the game.

An ADC will have to noticeably adjust their play style when facing different team comps such as...

A team with a functional assassin, geared around eliminating said ADC. A poke-siege comp centered around Caitlyn and another pokey mid (let's say Orianna) A hard engage comp focusing on numerous types of tanky initiators who are capable of making strong picks (say Leona / Alistar support, Rek'sai / WW jungle). A late game protect the kog comp which throws all of its eggs into that basket, running crap like Braum support, Mao top, and Rek'sai jungle, all focused on keeping Kog alive.

These are broad-ish examples because they represent team comps, rather than individual champions. However the point remains the same: If you Varus, you will lane against Caitlyn, Draven, and Vayne in fundamentally different ways. Same with supports; you will need to play differently against Brand support than you would Leona support and vice versa, or else you will have a fucking awful time.

Shit, I currently play a lot of Sion and Rek'sai jungle. However, traditionally, I've usually mained Trundle with a side of Xin, but have also heavily enjoyed Nocturne in the past. All of these champions approach jungling differently, and all of them approach ganking (especially specific champions) differently. Trundle literally cannot gank Morgana and Rek'sai will also struggle. Nocturne, on the other hand, could not care less about her. Or Ahri, who is also ungankable to trundle and difficult to Xin. Sion actively wants to die in some scenarios, where as no other champion does. Ect

Depending on the champion you play, different champions / types of champions will force you to lane, and participate in the mid and late game, in different ways. Stop trying to single Yasuo out for this, he exactly the same as any other champion in this regard.

I also don't get what you mean by "give up" something to do what he does. Yasuo is extraordinarily fragile for what he is, a skirmisher / light fighter. He has god-awful base stats and least-controllable-in-class defenses. Granted he also has some strengths, but he sure as hell pays a price for them.

It's almost like you think that Morgana or Anivia literally yield a portion of their base stats, or lose access to their Q abilities for 10 minutes, as soon as they enter a game.

Lastly: Yasuo's only real sin is how blatant his visual clarity is. His shield is clearly visible, his Tornado is clearly visible and telegraphed, wind wall is a gigantic defensive measure which you CANNOT miss. All of this is put in his kit to give him gigantic beacons of "I AM CURRENTLY IN A MOMENT OF POWER, BE AWARE AND ACT ACCORDINGLY."

It's weird, but a lot of the league community has been conditioned to prefer 'hidden power' in a champion's kit, so long as they know it's there, than blatant displayed power of the same magnitude. You don't hear hide nor hair about Morgana, or Jax, or Alistar, or any other number of champions and their moments of power even if they're far longer, far safer, and far more powerful than Yasuo's. And this is entirely because they're not so visually indicated, and not so derisive.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

TahmKench toxic and op.

Blakiepug3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXmcao5K,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-03-08T14:14:07.729+0000)

TahmKench toxic and op.

http://champion.gg/champion/TahmKench/Support Maybe toxic, but not op. Tahm struggles at team fighting more than most tanks and it shows. I have never seen Tahm breach into the top 20 support champs on champion.gg (and I am an avid Tahm player).

Tactical Barrels3 votes

Think the normie who downvoted u never played against a tahm top

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Yeah, i wish this for nobody. Sion comet is a baby next to tahm.

Pika Fox1 votes

Lets just remove the whole circle jerk;

Unless you are in pro play, absolutely nothing in this game is in a state of being OP. The only two OP champs in the game are ryze and kalista, and only in pro play.

Literally everything else in the game is either underperforming or slightly too strong.

No, ADCs are OP. No, tristana isnt OP. No, Zoe was never OP. FotM =/= OP. Annoying =/= OP. You banning a champ so you dont know how to play against it =/= OP.

And finally, no, Yasuo does not have a toxic kit. Annoying =/= toxic.

saltran1 votes

You should not put Kalista there because with the last nerfs she isn't even picked on pro play (as far watched in this LCK week).

Pika Fox1 votes

She still will be. Phreak even mentioned that he doubts the nerfs will drive her away in his patch update. Kalista is just that good in the right hands.

saltran1 votes

Hmm I trust more the top kr teams coachs than Phreak, not gonna lie.

She's not dead for pro play but if in most pick/bans she's ignored it seems like she is not op anymore.

Pika Fox1 votes

Not necessarily. She got hit pretty decently and people might just think shes worse than she actually is. All it takes is someone picking her and popping off for her to be back to pick/ban status. Sion became pick/ban with literally nothing done to him for over a year. His bug only affected the hitbox of his E, so yeah, some power was there, but he became "OP" just because someone wanted to play him. Sometimes, thats really all it takes.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

You know you can say this all you want, we can reiterate it over and over.

But the moment you bring up a toxic aspect of, say, Mordekaiser's kit the whole boards flames you with completely unreasonable bias.

"WINRATE!" "PLAYRATE!" "OTHER CHAMPS ARE MORE OP AND NEED NERFS!" "WHY NERF A BALANCED CHAMPION?!"

As if any of that has anything to do with the toxicity of a champion's kit smh.

koshkyra1 votes

For example, zoe is fucking toxic as hell to play against, but nowhere near op.

Emerald Fang1 votes

Tryndamere in my opinion is an example of a toxic, unfun kit. The entire purpose of this champion is to splitpush and just annoy the hell out of the enemy team, constantly leaving him as a force to be reckoned with. His ult means he's also able to 1v1 almost any champion in lane, or anyone that tries to stop his pushing.

General Esdeath 1 votes

On that note, can people stop confusing overloaded with OP? Overloaded kits include so much stuff that they can't be allowed to be great with any of them. Look at Naut, he's made to be a CC tank like Leona. They're tanky with high CC, but not a lot of damage (unless you go full AP). Viktor on the other hand has a speed boost, a slow, a stun, burst, DPS (with ult and upgraded E), a silence for 0.25 seconds. and a shield. But he doesn't really do anything too well and just sucks now because of it. He's either snowballing and one shotting with his burst (which is what most people build him for now) or he's useless. He used to be able to get lich bane and be a DPS mage cycling skills and autos, or a full burst mage with utility. Now it's burst or bust.

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