They powerspike too early. Think about it, their items got a lot cheaper, and now they can hit powerspikes much earlier in the game.
This makes them significantly superior to other classes during the mid-game, and it explains why we see bottom lanes that snowball nearly guaranteed their team's victory.
Share your thoughts in the comments.
jwebb01131 votesbut that is due to the over all meta being a faster game now... they increase global passive gold. lower cost of items. made turrets easier to siege etc
so its more complicated then they are just strong blah blah blah
HalcyonDweller1 votesSo it's items really. And how much they all cost for how much power they grant for everyone. Right?
My friend was saying something similar during our debate.
jwebb01131 votesno it isnt just items... its alot of things... its complex ... and with the new runes coming its gonna be a clusterfuk
HalcyonDweller1 votesDo you have any specific ideas to improve it?
Here are a few that I've been kicking around my head (obviously not all of them should be implemented at the same time, these are just options to choose from):
jwebb01131 votesok if this was to happen ( the tank items and marksmen items) then we have increased power spikes via to mages and assassins again (but i dont think tank items are that big of a issue.. i think over all they are weaker , the tank meta of recent came about due to the lethality meta cuz tanks countered lethality and lethality make the game super agro early
when 4 of 5 top adcs were foregoing traditional ad builds and rushing duskblade cuz it was 2900 gold instead of the cost of IE or other crit items and playing lane bully adcs ( draven, mf, lucian ) kinda led into the meta we have with quicker games then we make changes and cry and cry and gut cait to the 15th out of 16 adcs ( ez is still 16th) then we have a raise of trist. and other adcs that cait would keep in check. ( im my opinion sometimes having a champ strong lets you know where the balance in the game is) meaning if cait was queen again then we would contest and ban cait instead of having to worry about 5 adcs cuz she is shit... see this all the time the top dog in a role or meta is gutted then all of sudden 4-5 more step up and people are like wtf how are these champs all of sudden op/broken strong etc well its cuz that top dog you neutered cant keep them in line any more.
im not against the buffs to turret. personally i dont like the rng of drags and i feel baron isnt worth when you can get elder and im not a fan of rift... it creates to much of a power swing to the team who gets it cuz typically they are already ahead when its secured they changed drag from what it use to be " global gold stat" cuz said it was to powerful to over come... i say the rng of drags is worst
but keep in mind the reason for the meta shift to what we have now the super agro faster game was due to the community crying about the super slow late game meta that went 40+ mins all the time
as always riot never gets it just right ... its always over compensation for changes ... instead of moving towards the center ( aka balanced ) we swing from extremes right n left
but then again this is brought on us by us... if riot makes small changes and tweeks people cry they arent doing anything... if they do to much they are dumb... if they dont do anything then they dont care no matter what riot is always the goat ( n that dont mean the greatest of all time )
but over all with all the massive changes that have happen since end of season 5 and going forward ( rune changes and the balance nightmare it will cause ) sometimes you gotta pick your battles and accept certain things the way they are and kinda get the biggest things fixed.
HalcyonDweller1 votesok if this was to happen ( the tank items and marksmen items) then we have increased power spikes via to mages and assassins again (but i dont think tank items are that big of a issue.. i think over all they are weaker , the tank meta of recent came about due to the lethality meta cuz tanks countered lethality and lethality make the game super agro early
Have you played against someone with a warmog's armor recently? I have. It was a Darius. That item is way too good at doing what it was designed to do. You can't prevent the enemy juggernauts from just sustaining up after a skirmish and then re-engaging 15 seconds later.
when 4 of 5 top adcs were foregoing traditional ad builds and rushing duskblade cuz it was 2900 gold instead of the cost of IE or other crit items and playing lane bully adcs ( draven, mf, lucian ) kinda led into the meta we have with quicker games then we make changes and cry and cry and gut cait to the 15th out of 16 adcs ( ez is still 16th) then we have a raise of trist. and other adcs that cait would keep in check. ( im my opinion sometimes having a champ strong lets you know where the balance in the game is) meaning if cait was queen again then we would contest and ban cait instead of having to worry about 5 adcs cuz she is shit... see this all the time the top dog in a role or meta is gutted then all of sudden 4-5 more step up and people are like wtf how are these champs all of sudden op/broken strong etc well its cuz that top dog you neutered cant keep them in line any more.
I would argue that if a Top Dog is too strong then when you nerf them you should also nerf the champions they were keeping in check. IMO this would be better than leaving that top dog in a state of imbalance.
In Caitlyn's case I feel that Riot did not nerf her correctly. They made her feel worse to play without addressing what was frustrating / lacking counterplay for players.
im not against the buffs to turret. personally i dont like the rng of drags and i feel baron isnt worth when you can get elder and im not a fan of rift... it creates to much of a power swing to the team who gets it cuz typically they are already ahead when its secured
they changed drag from what it use to be " global gold stat" cuz said it was to powerful to over come... i say the rng of drags is worst
The one thing I like about Rift Herald is how it does encourage the jungler to give each side of the map equal weight during the early game. But I agree it offers way too much of a power boost for when a team that is ahead gets it.
I like the dragon buffs, but I partially agree with you that the RNG is a problem. I think it helps make the games less stagnant, but at the same time the RNG of having 3 Mountain or 3 Infernal become available and having the enemy team get that 3 stacks of the same passive makes it way too imbalanced.
Maybe the power swings should be altered to offer less benefit to teams that are already ahead, and more benefit to teams that are behind, that way these benefits from epic monsters would allow them to create more of a game-balancing effect instead of a snowball effect. For example:
but keep in mind the reason for the meta shift to what we have now the super agro faster game was due to the community crying about the super slow late game meta that went 40+ mins all the time
as always riot never gets it just right ... its always over compensation for changes ... instead of moving towards the center ( aka balanced ) we swing from extremes right n left
but then again this is brought on us by us... if riot makes small changes and tweeks people cry they arent doing anything... if they do to much they are dumb... if they dont do anything then they dont care no matter what riot is always the goat ( n that dont mean the greatest of all time )
Agreed, players are so susceptible to confirmation bias. It is far too easy for the community to assume wrong, and push Riot in the wrong direction. This may be part of the reason that Riot has avoided being too open with the community about things in development in the past.
but over all with all the massive changes that have happen since end of season 5 and going forward ( rune changes and the balance nightmare it will cause ) sometimes you gotta pick your battles and accept certain things the way they are and kinda get the biggest things fixed.
I suppose so. Hopefully league comes out of that balance nightmare by the end of preseason, and hopefully it will be for the better from it. I'm looking forwards to the rune / mastery changes that make it free and editable in champion select, but I am worried about the game-breaking keystones.
HalcyonDweller1 votesFinished responding, see my other comment for the completed response. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me!
HalcyonDweller1 votesCounter point from my friend I like to debate balance with:
The same thing happened when Mages were going bottom lane, their items were too cheap, so they were reaching powerspikes earlier. This is a bigger overarching problem with items in general.
When items are too cheap, mid game champions hit their powerspikes at the same time as late game champions do.
AirKingNeo1 votesIt's more like marksmen were very broken late game already and we made that powerspike come sooner without reducing it's power even slightly.
I've been saying this for a while now.
Critmaster Garen1 votesits not just they power spike too early.
ive seen games where a fucking ashe stacked nothing but crit and was able to kill massive armor/health tanks. im talking about 4k health + 300 armor targets with randuins.
adc dont even have to itemize into anti tank items to kill tanky targets. their early power spike is too large and their lategame scaling is broken.
they need to be taken down a notch mid and lategame, not just midgame.
the fact that even lategame marksmen can kill fighters and tanks who stack armor/health items, without building armor pen is just fucking offensive.