I'm not watching any statistics but i haven't had a major increase in fiora/fiora's OPness in my games.
What's going on? EDIT: I GET IT CERTAIN PEOPLE DESPISE FIORA. But my question was why did a huge section of the boards randomly develop an issue with her when there wasn't one last week?
SnakDatSmilesBak12 votesThe idea is that her early game isn't weak enough for her impressive late game.
Critmaster Garen4 votesThe idea is that her early game isn't weak enough for her impressive late game.
her lategame isnt that impressive.
she can be an obnoxious splitpusher, because shes strong in 1v1s. but have you actually seen fioras carry teamfights? ive never even seen fioras carry fights like yasuo mains.
AirKingNeo3 votesher lategame isnt that impressive.
Nearly 1 shotting everything isn't impressive? I'm out then.
Critmaster Garen4 votesNearly 1 shotting everything isn't impressive? I'm out then.
she doesnt 1 shot anyone. dont exaggerate.
AirKingNeo3 votesNearly 1 shotting everything isn't impressive? I'm out then.
Joxcab2 votesToday I learned doing something any damage champion can do to a squishy by lategame or taking 3-4 full seconds and her entire kit solo against a tank who wandered solo for some reason in lategame is an impressive oneshot.
Big Lincoln11 votestop lane meta has changed and fiora is top tier now
same with almost any other champ becoming op, game shifts in their favor
Lugg10 votesPlayers have ALWAYS had a problem with Fiora since her rework. She is completely broken. The only reason you haven't heard about it for awhile is the player base got tired of posting threads that were completely ignored by Riot.
There is zero reason to have an AoE heal on a 1v1 duelist champion who's strength has always been split pushing. Add into it the fact that you can absolutely dumpster her in laning phase and she will still 1v1 you once she gets 1 item and you have 3. All she needs is Death's Dance and it's GG since she can heal up the delayed damage so easily and never be bursted out.
Old Fiora was much more balanced than the new one. Which is pretty sad.
Mecha MaIphite17 votesas cancerous as new fiora is, i'd gladly take her over the old one, for one reason; counterplay
new fiora actually has some amount of counterplay; hug walls to deny vitals, reset a bad vital by walking away and walking back, baiting out and playing around her W, etc old fiora basically just jumped on you, mashed buttons with little to no variation in her combo
Zerenza1 votesOld fiora had a point and click "Delete" button that made her untargetable for an EXTREMELY long period of time. If you complain about anyone who has untargetability, complain about her before her rework because it was NOT balanced and neither was she. She had several issues before her rework but the main was lack of counterplay, stack checking and she was outdated/archetype correction.
The reason she has an AOE heal is because she is supposed to be an effective duelist, but because being a splitpusher can cost your team a lot she was given a very hard to complete AOE heal to offer SOME help to her team. More importantly, you know nothing about Fiora, Death's Dance? What fiora in their right mind get's death dance as their first item, every fiora i know get's Ravenous or BC first then get's either Ravenous or BC second THEN Get's either death's dance or bloodthirster then get's either Death's dance or bloodthirster, full damage, full lifesteal with maybe one tank item or one more armor pen item+boots.
I'm going to say it, your hatred for Fiora comes from your lack of understanding of how to fight against her and who to play against her, she isn't OP your just not good against her.
Thefrostyviking1 votesOld fiora had a point and click "Delete" button that made her untargetable for an EXTREMELY long period of time. If you complain about anyone who has untargetability, complain about her before her rework because it was NOT balanced and neither was she. She had several issues before her rework but the main was lack of counterplay, stack checking and she was outdated/archetype correction.
The reason she has an AOE heal is because she is supposed to be an effective duelist, but because being a splitpusher can cost your team a lot she was given a very hard to complete AOE heal to offer SOME help to her team. More importantly, you know nothing about Fiora, Death's Dance? What fiora in their right mind get's death dance as their first item, every fiora i know get's Ravenous or BC first then get's either Ravenous or BC second THEN Get's either death's dance or bloodthirster then get's either Death's dance or bloodthirster, full damage, full lifesteal with maybe one tank item or one more armor pen item+boots.
I'm going to say it, your hatred for Fiora comes from your lack of understanding of how to fight against her and who to play against her, she isn't OP your just not good against her.
If all you said really was the case then so many high lvl players wouldnt be complaining,
But there really is an issue with her having a maximum health % true damage that scales of AD ultimate that cant really be countered by anything except her dying first.
It kinda causes any pick that can´t burst her super hard to be nearly completely nonviable:(
Not that a lot of people actually play her so well below diamond but still.
Critmaster Garen3 votes{quoted} But there really is an issue with her having a maximum health % true damage that scales of AD
it scales with ad so she strives for a squishy ad heavy melee adc build.
if it didnt, she would build tanky like irelia. we already went through this, when her passive had a lower ad scaling and base damage attached to it. THAT was problematic.
fiora is in every way still far less bullshit than vayne. at least fioras vitals can be somewhat counterplayed by movement and positioning. the mechanic forces her to telegraph her own movement aswell.
with vayne she just right clicks whatever is in front of her from range to get it.
Lugg1 votesI have dumpstered quite a few Fiora's in lane. The problem is that you can be up 4 kills but once she has 2 completed items, she will kill you regardless of your lead. If you abuse a champ that bad in lane, they should be a non-factor in the game until at least 25-30 minutes.
Irleia has the exact same problem as well.
Zerenza1 votesThe thing is that if you were actually "Abusing" her in lane she probably won't complete two items by 30 minutes, if you weren't which is a common problem for top laner's, just cause you shove someone under tower doesn't mean your abusing them. No matter how many kills you get if her farm is even or better than yours, she's going to get those two items by 30 minutes and curb stomp you.
I'll tell you what i told other's, learn to play against her better.
Lugg1 votesI have been up 4 kills to none on a Fiora and had double her CS. And she still killed me when she hit level 9 at 12 minutes.
I don't care what kind of kit a champion has, if you are up 4 kills and that much of a gold advantage, not to mention the xp advantage, you should win that fight every time. If they were more skilled than you, they wouldn't be that far behind, so it's purely a case of the champion being OP.
DoktorKaiser7 votesBuffs to life steal, new guardian angel, new steraks and especially deaths dance. Not to mention she is really not fun to play against (especially for me, a person who mostly plays tanks) since her rework, at least before that nobody played her and I could play my Jax to totally counter her, but now she hasnt got almost any counter and is strong at all stages of the game with itemization that breaks her even further. Thank god she is somewhat hard to play so she cant be abuse by everyone.
Hinagiku332 votes
"No counters you say..."
DoktorKaiser5 votesDo people even need to consider pantheon. There is not a single champion who isnt countered by him, but lets be real, after lane he is trash tier and Fiora only ever gets stronger.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesDo people even need to consider pantheon. There is not a single champion who isnt countered by him, but lets be real, after lane he is trash tier and Fiora only ever gets stronger.
If you've ever played the lane, you'd know that Fiora only stands a chance at 45 minutes. Even in a 1v1 where she shines.
And if Panth hasn't ended the game by then, he's a shit Panth.
Nomad Sol7 votesALL OF A SUDDEN HAHAHAHAHAHA ALL OF A SUDDEN HE SAYS HAHAHAHAHAHA
KONO RUBICK DA5 votesstrong early game while being a hyper carry
attack speed slow makes it impossible to duel her which leads you to be forced to send at least two people toplane and in high elo this is a problem
Asayake 5150glow2 votes[{quoted}](name=Metal Malicious,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-26T22:01:03.807+0000)
strong early game while being a hyper carry
attack speed slow makes it impossible to duel her which leads you to be forced to send at least two people toplane and in high elo this is a problem
That's also her point tho lmao
And plus attack speed slow doesn't even make it impossible to duel her unless you're fucking Xin or something... almost all skirmishers have a good shot at 1v1'ing Fiora besides Yasuo.
VoraciousX2 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-05-27T00:13:49.570+0000)
That's also her point tho lmao
And plus attack speed slow doesn't even make it impossible to duel her unless you're fucking Xin or something... almost all skirmishers have a good shot at 1v1'ing Fiora besides Yasuo.
An attack speed slow on Riven would be really hard to deal with, considering auto attacks are most of her damage. However she can dodge it, assuming Fiora doesn't stun her. The matchup is in Fiora's favor and even if you win vs her she'll come back late game and be REALLY hard to deal with. It IS possible to beat her in a 1v1 but it's pretty hard late game and early game it can go either way, but it's more in favor of Fiora. In fact after looking at skirmishers attack speed is a prominent part of most of their kits. Yi can avoid attack speed slows though and I don't know how the matchup of Jax/Fiora would go despite being attack speed slowed. I'd imagine like many other matchups it'd depend on when Fiora casted her W.
Asayake 5150glow3 votesAn attack speed slow on Riven would be really hard to deal with, considering auto attacks are most of her damage. However she can dodge it, assuming Fiora doesn't stun her. The matchup is in Fiora's favor and even if you win vs her she'll come back late game and be REALLY hard to deal with. It IS possible to beat her in a 1v1 but it's pretty hard late game and early game it can go either way, but it's more in favor of Fiora. In fact after looking at skirmishers attack speed is a prominent part of most of their kits. Yi can avoid attack speed slows though and I don't know how the matchup of Jax/Fiora would go despite being attack speed slowed. I'd imagine like many other matchups it'd depend on when Fiora casted her W.
Riven is about oneshotting the Fiora - come mid late game, if you get hit by the W, you fucked up. Especially since E+W is really hard to Riposte. It's a pretty even match up, actually - if Fiora gets a good Riposte, she wins. If not, she loses. Jax vs Fiora, at least later on (not sure mid game) has everything to do with Fioras W but nothing to do with it's attack speed slow. It's this simple - if Jax can kill Fiora during his E, he wins. If Jax stuns Fiora with his E, he wins. If his E is Riposted, he loses. Other match ups it's usually determined by when Fiora casts her W, but usually by the block, not the AS slow.
VoraciousX2 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-27T01:03:18.478+0000)
Riven is about oneshotting the Fiora - come mid late game, if you get hit by the W, you fucked up. Especially since E+W is really hard to Riposte. It's a pretty even match up, actually - if Fiora gets a good Riposte, she wins. If not, she loses. Jax vs Fiora, at least later on (not sure mid game) has everything to do with Fioras W but nothing to do with it's attack speed slow. It's this simple - if Jax can kill Fiora during his E, he wins. If Jax stuns Fiora with his E, he wins. If his E is Riposted, he loses. Other match ups it's usually determined by when Fiora casts her W, but usually by the block, not the AS slow.
The thing is it's ALL determined by Fiora. It's about WHEN FIORA Ws. The only way she wins or loses depends on HER specifically. Sure you can try to bait out the W of Fiora, but it's about whether or not the Fiora falls for the bait. It entirely depends on Fiora whether she wins or loses most lanes.
Also Fiora builds tankier than Riven last I played against her, it's pretty hard to kill her and she deals quite a lot of damage despite that, and let's not get started on one shotting Fiora. That's impossible for like every champion in the game. And as I said, I've been almost full build vs a Fiora with 2-3 items and still she was able to burst me down pretty easily when I could barely get any damage on her as an assassin. She has plenty of damage without many damage items.
Hinagiku333 votesIt's determined by Fiora only in the sense that Jax auto-wins the fight if he lands his stun but she has a chance to parry the stun and turn the fight around.
You could very easily say the entire battle is determined by Jax's ability to time and land his stun and make Fiora look like the powerless one.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIt's determined by Fiora only in the sense that Jax auto-wins the fight if he lands his stun but she has a chance to parry the stun and turn the fight around.
You could very easily say the entire battle is determined by Jax's ability to time and land his stun and make Fiora look like the powerless one.
Fiora actually is the powerless one because Jax gets the first 1.25 seconds of his E to smash her face in, if he doesn't, then he loses.
Also, most Fiora's will Riposte slightly after 1 second because Riposte lasts .75 seconds and Jax gets 1 second to pop his E, so either way Jax gets .25 seconds to stun while Fiora just has to guess and hope. This is mindgames though.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesThe thing is it's ALL determined by Fiora. It's about WHEN FIORA Ws. The only way she wins or loses depends on HER specifically. Sure you can try to bait out the W of Fiora, but it's about whether or not the Fiora falls for the bait. It entirely depends on Fiora whether she wins or loses most lanes.
Except Riven's W is instantaneous, which gives the edge to Riven.
Also Fiora builds tankier than Riven last I played against her, it's pretty hard to kill her and she deals quite a lot of damage despite that, and let's not get started on one shotting Fiora. That's impossible for like every champion in the game. And as I said, I've been almost full build vs a Fiora with 2-3 items and still she was able to burst me down pretty easily when I could barely get any damage on her as an assassin. She has plenty of damage without many damage items.
Fiora builds tankier than Riven after 3 items, before that it's both BC + damage. And Riven trades two tank items for tremendous AoE burst.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=000200000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-05-27T14:42:06.750+0000)
Except Riven's W is instantaneous, which gives the edge to Riven.
Fiora builds tankier than Riven after 3 items, before that it's both BC + damage. And Riven trades two tank items for tremendous AoE burst.
Riven's W being instantaneous doesn't give Riven an edge at all. The CC immunity/stun window starts from what I've experienced starts the minute you press W, despite the animation cast time. It's pretty clear what Riven will do in most situations, you only have to time your W right. You could say Riven could bait the W, but Fiora could wait as well. The entire early game depends on Fiora's ability to judge her W timing. After that Riven can't burst Fiora so she wins by default so long as she plays correctly against Riven in a 1v1, especially now that you can't QSS her ultimate. I know the matchup, and even BoxBox says so himself. The early game is a skill matchup that slightly favors Fiora(because it depends on her W). By late game it's REALLY difficult to fight Fiora even if you dominated in lane.
[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=00000000000100000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-05-27T17:08:59.915+0000)
ive literally seen a jinx 2 shot a varus with two rocket crits. ive seen lategame twitch wreck entire teams with his ult in seconds. same for mf. or what about draven nearly 1 shotting other squishies with a q crit?
why are pople not complaining about them?
whats the difference, other than they dont even have to walk up to their targets?
to really "assassinate" another squishy, fiora needs a full build aswell.
is the concept of a melee adc really that hard to understand? marksmen have range, fiora has mobility and riposte. thats the only difference between them. her job is to carry just like any marksmen who are capable of the same shit.
and you even get those dudes with spellshields and invincibility frames.
I wouldn't consider Fiora being a melee ADC when she actually builds more bruisery normally, but then again she can still build pretty high in defenses and still be extremely relevant. Then again, she's still a carry despite building more tanky so I guess she could be considered an ADC. Just one you can't blow up.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesRiven's W being instantaneous doesn't give Riven an edge at all. The CC immunity/stun window starts from what I've experienced starts the minute you press W, despite the animation cast time. It's pretty clear what Riven will do in most situations, you only have to time your W right. You could say Riven could bait the W, but Fiora could wait as well. The entire early game depends on Fiora's ability to judge her W timing. After that Riven can't burst Fiora so she wins by default so long as she plays correctly against Riven in a 1v1, especially now that you can't QSS her ultimate. I know the matchup, and even BoxBox says so himself. The early game is a skill matchup that slightly favors Fiora(because it depends on her W). By late game it's REALLY difficult to fight Fiora even if you dominated in lane.
Oh no, it completely gives Riven the edge because in order for Fiora to Riposte it, she needs to predict the W. And if she predicts wrong, she's fucked. It doesn't depend on Fiora, it depends on Riven. And if it's clear what Riven is gonna do, then you're not facing a very smart Riven. Not to mention it's possible for Riven to bait out Riposte by third Q'ing into it, and then E'ing to juke it. She won't be able to go in immediately, but since Riposte is on a longer CD than Riven's abilities, she will get a ~10 second window to zone Fiora. By late game it's the exact same thing except you no longer have the chance to get away if you saved your E and a few Q's. If your CC is blocked, you lose, period. It happens faster lategame, but most of the times, you will still die early game.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to Riposte something that's instantaneous. That's like saying Riposting Ignite is easy.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=00020000000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-05-28T13:32:23.173+0000)
Oh no, it completely gives Riven the edge because in order for Fiora to Riposte it, she needs to predict the W. And if she predicts wrong, she's fucked. It doesn't depend on Fiora, it depends on Riven. And if it's clear what Riven is gonna do, then you're not facing a very smart Riven. Not to mention it's possible for Riven to bait out Riposte by third Q'ing into it, and then E'ing to juke it. She won't be able to go in immediately, but since Riposte is on a longer CD than Riven's abilities, she will get a ~10 second window to zone Fiora. By late game it's the exact same thing except you no longer have the chance to get away if you saved your E and a few Q's. If your CC is blocked, you lose, period. It happens faster lategame, but most of the times, you will still die early game.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to Riposte something that's instantaneous. That's like saying Riposting Ignite is easy.
You can't third Q a Fiora W and then get out of it, because third Q is also CC(You're also CCed when you land 3rd Q so you can't really E away from what I recall), meaning it stuns Riven and gives Fiora free kill. Riven has two chances for Fiora to W her, and if Riven messes up ANY one of her abilities she dies or takes a horrendously bad trade. If Fiora does it, she takes a bad trade. Either way Fiora outscales regardless of what you do in the matchup. It's kinda crap to pick Riven into it.
Even if you bait her W, you can still be put in a bad spot because if her actual arrow hits you, your combo gets problematic. The attack speed she has is just enough for her to pull off a fast combo, but if you're actually waiting to attack the combo gets messed up. Fiora however still gets to do her thing regardless.
The Fiora matchup is in Fiora's favor, if you want to disagree with me fine, but you're also disagreeing with at least one high elo Riven player, and op.GG since Riven has a 48% win rate vs her.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesYou can't third Q a Fiora W and then get out of it, because third Q is also CC(You're also CCed when you land 3rd Q so you can't really E away from what I recall), meaning it stuns Riven and gives Fiora free kill. Riven has two chances for Fiora to W her, and if Riven messes up ANY one of her abilities she dies or takes a horrendously bad trade. If Fiora does it, she takes a bad trade. Either way Fiora outscales regardless of what you do in the matchup. It's kinda crap to pick Riven into it.
Fiora W has a .75 cast time. As long as you don't third Q into her W, and instead have her react to your third Q. Your third Q animation doesn't last .75 seconds - it's child's play to E out of the way before Fiora's W actually fires.
Even if you bait her W, you can still be put in a bad spot because if her actual arrow hits you, your combo gets problematic. The attack speed she has is just enough for her to pull off a fast combo, but if you're actually waiting to attack the combo gets messed up. Fiora however still gets to do her thing regardless.
Lategame Riven doesn't give any shits about fast combo'ing. That being said, it's also completely possible to Qdance through Fiora and dodge it.
The Fiora matchup is in Fiora's favor, if you want to disagree with me fine, but you're also disagreeing with at least one high elo Riven player, and op.GG since Riven has a 48% win rate vs her.
Probably skewed as of now, with the animation canceling consistency change inviting more people to play Riven. Also Riven is more difficult that Fiora, and takes more skill to win the match up, and is also more popular - the likelyhood of a newbie Riven facing a not so newbie Fiora is high, and a newbie Riven vs a newbie Fiora is also in Fiora's favor. However, with both players being experienced, it's a skill matchup.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=0002000000000000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-29T14:26:43.627+0000)
Fiora W has a .75 cast time. As long as you don't third Q into her W, and instead have her react to your third Q. Your third Q animation doesn't last .75 seconds - it's child's play to E out of the way before Fiora's W actually fires.
The moment Fiora casts W, the spell shield and CC is applied. The cast time on W only applies to the projectile.
Lategame Riven doesn't give any shits about fast combo'ing. That being said, it's also completely possible to Qdance through Fiora and dodge it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39AokVJuMgs
The title of this video explains it all. Btw, he used QSS to get rid of her ult so that duel could have STILL went horribly wrong.
Probably skewed as of now, with the animation canceling consistency change inviting more people to play Riven. Also Riven is more difficult that Fiora, and takes more skill to win the match up, and is also more popular - the likelyhood of a newbie Riven facing a not so newbie Fiora is high, and a newbie Riven vs a newbie Fiora is also in Fiora's favor. However, with both players being experienced, it's a skill matchup.
I think most people know that the Riven changes were not BUFFs, they only help people with connection problems, and from what I've heard they actually slowed down Riven's fast combo. I haven't really tested it myself since I've been playing a lot of other champions, and Riven's pick rate hasn't changed very much at all, in fact as of today it's only been a decently higher rate for one day. Riven's win rate still has not changed.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesThe moment Fiora casts W, the spell shield and CC is applied. The cast time on W only applies to the projectile.
That's not the point, the point is that you can dodge the CC (projectile). And now Fiora's W is on a ~24 second cooldown while your Q and E will come up in 10 seconds... aka 14 seconds of abusing Fiora while her W's down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39AokVJuMgs
The title of this video explains it all. Btw, he used QSS to get rid of her ult so that duel could have STILL went horribly wrong.
Then he coulda played better.
I think most people know that the Riven changes were not BUFFs, they only help people with connection problems, and from what I've heard they actually slowed down Riven's fast combo. I haven't really tested it myself since I've been playing a lot of other champions, and Riven's pick rate hasn't changed very much at all, in fact as of today it's only been a decently higher rate for one day. Riven's win rate still has not changed.
I dunno, before someone explained it to me, all I heard was her animation canceling got easier.
But still, Riven's higher skill floor still gives her a lower winrate, period.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=000200000000000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T01:05:37.252+0000)
That's not the point, the point is that you can dodge the CC (projectile). And now Fiora's W is on a ~24 second cooldown while your Q and E will come up in 10 seconds... aka 14 seconds of abusing Fiora while her W's down.
Then he coulda played better.
I dunno, before someone explained it to me, all I heard was her animation canceling got easier.
But still, Riven's higher skill floor still gives her a lower winrate, period.
You're getting it wrong. Riven has a 48% win rate VERSUS FIORA. Not total.
[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-30T01:15:08.727+0000)
I made another post, with math showing Riven can indeed oneshot Fiora with just a doublecast Tiamat combo at lvl 15 with Fiora's 3 item core + Tabi's and the equivalent in cost of assassin items for Riven, and I forgot to calculate Thunderlords.
Also, never Tiamat+flash, it's just dumb. The input buffered auto works perfectly fine unless you're against fucking Faker. The input buffered auto + Tiamat into doublecast will work against anyone below Challenger as well.
You know the only assassin item Riven buys is Youmuu's right? Riven builds bruiser not assassin. There IS an assassin build but it's pretty bad for her unless she's ahead already.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesYou're getting it wrong. Riven has a 48% win rate VERSUS FIORA. Not total.
You know the only assassin item Riven buys is Youmuu's right? Riven builds bruiser not assassin. There IS an assassin build but it's pretty bad for her unless she's ahead already.
Riven's most meta build in NA, before DD was overbuffed and GA was buffed, was that of an assassins. Cleaver, Youmuu's, Rav (or just Tiamat), Edge of Night.
Fact is Riven can and should build assassin in certain situations. The match up vs FIora is one of them. You can hardly justify going bruiser when, as I just showed, going assassin is far better at dueling Fiora.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=00020000000000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T19:31:56.333+0000)
Riven's most meta build in NA, before DD was overbuffed and GA was buffed, was that of an assassins. Cleaver, Youmuu's, Rav (or just Tiamat), Edge of Night.
Fact is Riven can and should build assassin in certain situations. The match up vs FIora is one of them. You can hardly justify going bruiser when, as I just showed, going assassin is far better at dueling Fiora.
Riven also had a terrible win rate with those builds too. It was when Lethality was popular on everyone and everyone wanted to play Riven like an assassin. Riven had a terrible win rate during those times because Riven needs survivability. The only lethality item Riven normally builds is a youmuus. They also nerfed lethality. It's not going to be very strong vs someone who builds tankier(Lethality isn't a tankbuster stat), and has more armor and AD than you, especially when she builds a ninja tabi because you know that's one of Riven's biggest counters. I also like how you're basically saying a challenger player(at the time) should have played that fight better. He did everything he could to win that fight(and he needed QSS, which no longer works on Fiora's ultimate). Also you'd need the CDR, which lethality only gives 10%. You'd only get 20% total from lethality and lucidity boots so you'd need like 20% in CDR runes to make up for it if you went lethality. That'd mean less AD/lethality in runes, which = less damage from duskblade. Your cooldowns need to be up more than Fiora's because Fiora's one main ability is up nearly every 3 seconds 0% CDR and all she has to do is ult>E you and you're probably not gonna get away from her unless she initiated first and you're close to a tower. There's also a lot more than JUST dueling Fiora in a game, especially when she's gonna outscale you no matter what.
It's also BS that "if Riven gets her core it's impossible to kill her as Fiora". Fiora outscales Riven, not the other way around. Fiora has a really good late game. Riven's late game is only good if she gets far ahead.
Mira Arya Enthe1 votesUhm. Fiora's HP pool and defenses are way too high to 'one shot'(something nobody except a 70 minute Veigar or Nasus does). Riven's fastest burst combos are 2 seconds long the longest are 3-4. To get off enough damage to kill a Fiora mid game, who is likely more fed than you realistically. You'd need something along the lines of:
E>R1>H>F>AA>W>Q>AA>Q>AA>R2>Q>AA Dekar combo Or if you are more fed than her at least something like a: Q>Q>E>R1>F>Q>AA>W>R2>H>AA Boxbox combo.
To kill her. Riven's really fast combos only work if the target is something like Lucian or Ashe and the Riven is hyper fed. Things like: R2>E>H>F>W>Q The Sexy combo. Would never work on Fiora unless she is a Silver Fiora facing a challenger Riven smurf(which is what many montages are).
Riven at no point in the game is stronger than Fiora. Fiora is just better. Which is why The Shy and Viper have largely laid off Riven and even Boxbox by % plays Riven less of his games than before.
Fighting Fiora as Riven consists of playing survival early game and hoping your jungler is better, praying she isn't very skilled for mid game then hoping your AoE CC works out slightly better for team fighting late game. And 1v1s consist of hoping she fails her riposte, then hoping you can negate a couple vitals while lifestealing enough to survive.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-27T10:00:28.833+0000)
Uhm. Fiora's HP pool and defenses are way too high to 'one shot'(something nobody except a 70 minute Veigar or Nasus does). Riven's fastest burst combos are 2 seconds long the longest are 3-4. To get off enough damage to kill a Fiora mid game, who is likely more fed than you realistically. You'd need something along the lines of:
E>R1>H>F>AA>W>Q>AA>Q>AA>R2>Q>AA Dekar combo Or if you are more fed than her at least something like a: Q>Q>E>R1>F>Q>AA>W>R2>H>AA Boxbox combo.
To kill her. Riven's really fast combos only work if the target is something like Lucian or Ashe and the Riven is hyper fed. Things like: R2>E>H>F>W>Q The Sexy combo. Would never work on Fiora unless she is a Silver Fiora facing a challenger Riven smurf(which is what many montages are).
Riven at no point in the game is stronger than Fiora. Fiora is just better. Which is why The Shy and Viper have largely laid off Riven and even Boxbox by % plays Riven less of his games than before.
Fighting Fiora as Riven consists of playing survival early game and hoping your jungler is better, praying she isn't very skilled for mid game then hoping your AoE CC works out slightly better for team fighting late game. And 1v1s consist of hoping she fails her riposte, then hoping you can negate a couple vitals while lifestealing enough to survive.
I made another post, with math showing Riven can indeed oneshot Fiora with just a doublecast Tiamat combo at lvl 15 with Fiora's 3 item core + Tabi's and the equivalent in cost of assassin items for Riven, and I forgot to calculate Thunderlords.
Also, never Tiamat+flash, it's just dumb. The input buffered auto works perfectly fine unless you're against fucking Faker. The input buffered auto + Tiamat into doublecast will work against anyone below Challenger as well.
Mira Arya Enthe1 votesAlso, never Tiamat+flash, it's just dumb.
Those combos are literally from some of the top Riven mains in the world........................I didn't make those myself facepalm
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T13:10:28.494+0000)
Those combos are literally from some of the top Riven mains in the world........................I didn't make those myself facepalm
The top Riven mains in the world are playing against people who can flash away from an input buffered auto doublecast combo. Me and you, we aren't.
Mira Arya Enthe1 votesYou should always practice the best methods. At least, so I feel.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=000200000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T20:30:38.223+0000)
You should always practice the best methods. At least, so I feel.
Even if they are less effective?
Sure Shen is amazing because of his map presence with R, but at lower elo's it's just not as great. Hydra+flash might be the best method against other extremely high tier players, but in lower elos, it's not actually the best method. At least, not in results.
PermabannedGaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=Metal Malicious,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JUXFWf73,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-26T22:01:03.807+0000)
strong early game while being a hyper carry
attack speed slow makes it impossible to duel her which leads you to be forced to send at least two people toplane and in high elo this is a problem
She isn't a hypercarry.
Twitch is a hypercarry. Vayne is a hypercarry. Gangplank is a hypercarry. Azir is a hypercarry (maybe not anymore since he's a piece of dried poop on an old moldy sandwich).
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/fiora
A win rate of less than 55% in the super late game.
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/gangplank
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/twitch
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/vayne
By comparison. Azir's late game statistically is apparently shit tho lul.
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yasuo
Even Yasuo, whose late game you've downplayed compared to other skirmishers, is about on par with her that late into the game.
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/monkeyking
Wukong also outscales her apparently lul.
The reasons are simple: team fights win late game. All of these champions can heavily influence a team fight by themselves in ways Fiora can't. She's an excellent duelist, but that's all she is. Her team fighting is okay at best.
I do think some laning power could stand to be trimmed from her though.
Dasdi962 votesI think the main reason people hate her is that most top lane mains enjoy playing champions that stack hp and resists to be a frontliner. Fiora is the champion that shits on all of the tanky fighters and tanks that top lane mains usually play. Very few top lane mains like playing carry top laners.
CyberBalt1 votesI guess people have just caught on. It was the same thing with rework Poppy -- she was beyond OP, but only like three quarters of a year later did people seem to care.
Marshbouy1 votesThey caught on before 3/4ths of a year because 3/4ths of a year later she was at 45% winrate. I know because i extensively bitched about it.
CyberBalt1 votesWell maybe not exactly 3/4ths of a year, but it was definitely a REALLY long time before she before people decided she was OP. Maybe half a year?
Marshbouy1 voteswho really knows/cares. There are tons of examples. For a good period of time people will defend a champion to death until suddenly the penny drops and a good chunk of the boards loses their shit.
CyberBalt3 votesWell I have no proof for this, but I think it might be a kind of bystander effect. People are too lazy to voice their own opinions, or when they do, it immediately gets downvoted into oblivion if it doesn't strictly conform to what people find OP at that time.
However, once there's a single highly-upvoted thread about that thing, all those people who previously had their speech silenced by the downvote horde are now unleashed into full power onto the boards for a while.
Again, I have 0 evidence for this, but that's my theory.
