Ranged Top is fair

The Ecdysiast·Nov 17, 2016·3 votes·1,174 views

Sorry to say, but ranged champions being safe picks top lane is the only thing preventing Juggernauts from dominating the lane like they did on the rework and do against anyone else melee.

Their only possible counterplay is kiting and safe poke, something only possible for ranged champions.

Low-cost sustain along with high base damage and scaling makes for an advantage against every other melee subclass.

So no, Jayce, Kennen, and Vayne don't need nerfs. Champs that force them to be the only viable picks do.

Edit: Juggernauts are in the same boat as ranged champs in that they have massive early game advantages that their strong late games shouldn't allow. The only difference is that now the juggernaut players are coming out to whine that they're getting a taste of their own medicine.

34 Comments

Sahn UzalNov 17, 20163 votes

Ranged toplaners have been a thing for a loong time. And will always be a thing.

The difference is that Jayce, Kennen and Vayne are straight up overpowered. They should get nerfed, but will still be solid counterpicks against juggernauts.

Koala CalamityNov 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JJP6YJJU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-17T12:03:54.805+0000)

Ranged toplaners have been a thing for a loong time. And will always be a thing.

The difference is that Jayce, Kennen and Vayne are straight up overpowered. They should get nerfed, but will still be solid counterpicks against juggernauts.

No opinion on jayce or kennen, but vayne is not overpowered at all. If you nerf her in top lane her bot lane will be more trash than it already is. A vayne on my team bot is already a liability for the first 30 minutes.

Sahn UzalNov 17, 20164 votes

Vayne Toplane isn't overpowered, it's just obnoxious. Bottomlane Vayne is overpowered.

Have you been living under a rock?

Koala CalamityNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JJP6YJJU,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-11-17T12:14:22.129+0000)

Vayne Toplane isn't overpowered, it's just obnoxious. Bottomlane Vayne is overpowered.

Have you been living under a rock?

Support main. If I live under a rock, vayne shares my address. Cait counters vayne, and so does sona if you want a strong support to fight her.

Sahn UzalNov 17, 20164 votes

She has the second highest performance of any ADC. She has a 53% winrate with a 25% playrate while being a hard champion to play.

Riot really buffed her Q over a few patches, and the changes to stealth removed one of the most effective ways to deal with her. Vayne is way too powerful right now.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Jayce and Kennen have not seen any adjustment at all for an entire year. They are not the problem.

Sahn UzalNov 18, 20163 votes

Kenny got buffs during the mid-season mage update, and item 3152 was added. Jayce got a buff to his mana cost that allowed him to build full armor pen and skip Tear of the goddes.

Mecha MaIphiteNov 17, 20163 votes

Vayne top should be bannable no matter how strong it is

Big LincolnNov 17, 20162 votes

every juggernaut has a good number of melee champions they lose to tho

so no, ranged top isn't a necessity to beat them, considering every single of them is regarded as a low elo pubstomper right now.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Any melee champion that can beat the pure stat advantage of a juggernaut is the same melee champion that can beat the ranged enemies. It may sound a little off, but if you're thinking the same "counters" as I am, then the strength that allow them to stand up to juggernauts are just as easily used against range.

ItsOrvalNov 17, 20161 votes

Nasus "But how can I get mah stacks with these ranged champs bullying me." There's only one solution, "RITO Nerf These Ranged Top Laners NAO"

BeatzBoyFTWNov 17, 20167 votes

ranged top got nerfed

Nasus : YES, I'M BACK, BABY!! Darius : Sup Nasus : ... Nasus : ...can I jung- Singed summoner 11 summoner 6 : No, fk off. I'm "helping".

ItsOrvalNov 17, 20162 votes

bans Darius

Nasus : Problem solved, ez game ez life

BeatzBoyFTWNov 17, 20165 votes

Teemo : Hey Ryze : Sup Riven : Darling :3 Kennen : Yo Illaoi : MOVE

ItsOrvalNov 17, 20162 votes

Nasus : FeelsBadMan

Although Illaoi is pretty easy for Nasus beens her damage doesnt do much to you, and you get stacks from her tentacles.

The rest you just need to buy item 3065 for and you'll be good to go.

Except Riven, I have not seen a Riven player in a long time, so I would not know.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 17, 20161 votes

Once Illaoi gets an E on you, you're best to either focusing on hitting her off while taking minion-aggro, or AFK from lane for about 10 seconds to deal with her incoming tentacles.

In the case of Riven, she's still a popular pick compared to the new Yorick.

ItsOrvalNov 17, 20161 votes

If Illaoi Es me, I walk out to get my free stacks early game. If she lands he E on my mid game when im level 13ish, then I engage. Her tentacles and E doesnt do much damage to a Nasus with 220 armor anyways. Even early game she does no damage to me because I have 72 armor.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Illaoi is the only one of them that can afford to tower-dive.

And after choking Nasus out of around 20 stacks, he'll still have enough to farm under tower without worry that the tower will take them from him.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Exactly.

FireDrizzleNov 17, 20161 votes

Bullying with ranged champs that are meant to be lategame champs is an issue. Vlad and cassiopea especially are at no risk at all against melees. Vlad may be weak now though, i wouldn't know, i havent played against one in a long time. It would explain not seeing him.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Vlad lost a lot of strength when they pushed his passive and kit more heavily towards buying AP rather than Health for AP. Which is why he's so good mid lane, and no longer seen top lane.

And that "issue" is exactly the same for the juggernauts. They have early game bullying that their late game tank builds shouldn't allow.

FireDrizzleNov 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And that "issue" is exactly the same for the juggernauts. They have early game bullying that their late game tank builds shouldn't allow.

Tank builds don't scale past mid game, Last whisper items remove so much armour. Darius with the coq can't be too bad lategame but other juggernauts can't use it because they don't have hard cc and have less utility then for that reason. It will be nerfed before next season anyway. Aside from Nasus the juggernauts without hard cc will lose a lot of damage late game. Not "exactly the same" as champs that get stronger as the game goes on.

The EcdysiastNov 19, 20161 votes

They do when your first item is allowed to be a damage/penetration item to assure you never fall off, and their massive stats that don't require items and so allow for Thornmail.

There's a way to fight against ranged champions' lane phase as melee, and it's not as easy to fight against the jugg's high damage+sustain+base defense stats as a melee who lacks those.

FireDrizzleNov 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

They do when your first item is allowed to be a damage/penetration item to assure you never fall off, and their massive stats that don't require items and so allow for Thornmail.

There's a way to fight against ranged champions' lane phase as melee, and it's not as easy to fight against the jugg's high damage+sustain+base defense stats as a melee who lacks those.

If you dont think juggernauts fall off I don't know what to tell you. A FULL tank champ without courage of the collosus dies immediatly in a late teamfight and base damages fall off endgame. A lategame ADC can lifesteal through thornmail. and count it as 55 armour 0 health, or less if someone stacks black cleaver.

Many ranged champs there is no way to fight against them for most melees. Vlad can bloodpool away without a junglers help, so any attempt to fight is a trade but not an all in and he has massive sustain. Cass has great movespeed and has no excuses for getting hit by a skill shot. Ryze can point and click snare, throw a q and run away. Gnar only kills himself, he has to fuck up badly to not be able to just jump away.

The EcdysiastNov 21, 20161 votes

Their damage never falls off. They can purchase a build that allows them to survive ten times longer than their ADC while still assassinating the enemy adc.

And you're right about tank champs. Lucky for juggs, they aren't tanks with low damage.

Vlad can take out 20% of his HP to get away, had his passive switched to favor less survival, and his sustain when using Q against anything but a champion was reduced. So he's not the counter-less monster he used to be at top.

Cass isn't a top laner, and there is also no ~~skill~~ skillshot at all involved in playing a juggernaut. Just get close enough and the enemy's dead.

You've got me on Ryze, but he has always been a counter to shit like Darius. That he remains a counter after Darius was given 200 free AD and a resetting, costless ultimate is only fair.

Gnar has a 46% winrate overall, which only increases to around 50% against champions he supposedly is meant to counter. Not at all too strong.

Koala CalamityNov 17, 20161 votes

if she has a 53% win rate, that just means that 47% of players aren't afraid to punch her in her squishy face. Seriously just kill her. She's the squishiest carry in the game. Almost no one was using pink wards to reveal her before this patch. Her stealth wasn't busting the game back then and it isn't busting the game right now.

If she gets a change, I can get behind trading her true damage to normal AD. Non-ultimate abilities shouldn't be able to make 8000 gold in defense stats obsolete.

Asayake 5150glowNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Their only possible counterplay is kiting and safe poke, something only possible for ranged champions.

Just not true...

ZoeeeeNov 17, 20161 votes

Gnar is cancer.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20161 votes

Gnar has a 46% winrate, which skyrockets to 49% against champions he's supposed to have the advantage against. lol

AstôlfoNov 18, 20161 votes

Troll thread 7/10

GULAG 4 UNov 19, 20161 votes

lol

SirLapseNov 19, 20161 votes

I disagree that Vayne doesn't need nerfs, she definitely does.

As for Juggernauts popping off, I play Renekton and eat them for breakfast. Riven isn't ranged, Fiora isn't ranged, Gangplank is only technically ranged, and so forth. AP Tops like Ekko and Mordekaiser also don't do too badly overall, though Darius is a problem for Morde.

The tanks themselves are really strong and can stop juggernauts on their own too.

The EcdysiastNov 21, 20161 votes

You play another Juggernaut and eat them for breakfast... okay?

I'm not gonna take the time to explain those cases, 'cause they're in an older comment on this thread.

But as for GP, his kit is specifically catered to countering high base defenses and high synergy with armor.

And in case you're newer than a year, Mord is a juggernaut too. Just fyi.

SirLapseNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You play another Juggernaut and eat them for breakfast... okay?

I'm not gonna take the time to explain those cases, 'cause they're in an older comment on this thread.

But as for GP, his kit is specifically catered to countering high base defenses and high synergy with armor.

And in case you're newer than a year, Mord is a juggernaut too. Just fyi.

Renekton is a fighter, not a juggernaut. He actually can't be kited with proper usage of his E, which tells me you have no idea how his laning phase works. Otherwise Irelia and Aatrox would be considered juggernauts if they built one or two tank items.

GP gets destroyed early on because of the HP nerfs he received a while ago, it's just playing passively and then crushing them swiftly late game. That can be argued for many champions fighting Juggernauts, as Juggernauts typically do not scale well into the late game unless it is called Darius. Kennen is the main example.

I think people like you just ignore Garen and Skarner who quite literally only control how the game goes if they successfully press R or duel 1v1 rather than teamfighting. They get kited extremely easily in comparison to most other champions in their respective roles. The reason a juggernaut's damage doesn't fall off is because they usually are gold-efficient, it does not mean that they never can go negative. I've smashed a Darius player as Poppy and quite literally he had no more influence on the game. If 90% of the top lane roster can handle juggernauts, this topic is a delusion you've convinced yourself of without looking at winrates and spectated actual matchups.