Garen’s villain passive needs to be removed

HateDaddy·Sep 12, 2018·54 votes·15,979 views

There’s nothing quite like stomping him in lane only for you to become the villain and take 80% of your HP in true damage + ignite to finish you in mere seconds to guy going full tank because he got rocked. This shit is such a terrible design - you should never have a mechanic that punishes people for doing well.

To clarify, I realize killing Garen alone doesn’t make you the villain. But the moment you’ve taken the lead you’ve gotten from killing him and apply it somewhere else, you are going to be made the villain. And eventually you’ll be confronted with dealing with him as the villain and he’ll melt you before you can even do anything to him because of silence + true damage burst. Not to mention, this is just a bad mechanic in general that ends up being anti-melee or useless. If the ranged ADC becomes villain, there’s a good chance Garen won’t even touch them - all the more reason to remove it and give him something better and easier to balance.

51 Comments

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 201819 votes

you cant become the villain by killing garen.

they removed that 2 weeks after the juggernaut update. only kills against his allies count towards the villainy passive.

HateDaddySep 12, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-12T03:46:39.997+0000)

you cant become the villain by killing garen.

they removed that 2 weeks after the juggernaut update. only kills against his allies count towards the villainy passive.

If I’ve killed Garen a bunch, it stands to reason that I’ll likely be doing the same to his allies. And given how top lane works, there’s still going to be points where I’m confronted with dealing with him. And regardless, it doesn’t matter who becomes the villain under any circumstance, that is a terrible mechanic no matter what.

ModAcademy KaynSep 12, 20183 votes

There’s nothing quite like stomping him in lane only for you to become the villain

I mean, maybe include that in your OP then.

HateDaddySep 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-12T10:12:00.291+0000)

I mean, maybe include that in your OP then.

RagnaveilSep 12, 20181 votes

Even though it doesn't give you villain for killing Garen, the fact of the matter is that it goes to the person with the highest kill bounty. Even though i've killed Garen and it states "Kills against Garen will not be considered when determining the Villain" doesn't make sense when I see myself getting marked with all my garen kills. Could be that the mechanic is bugged if the person killing Garen in lane is also the person with the highest kill bounty. EDIT: If it being bugged is the case, the bounty update we got a long while ago might have done something to the coding on Garen's ult. Its the only plausible change I could think of that might have messed with the coding.

Zero Skill TankSep 12, 20182 votes

While this is true, it in no way justifies Garen's passive. It only prevents the worst and most common abuse case.

Garen is quite kiteable, so idea of heavily rewarding him for accessing a specific target makes sense, but the way this target is chosen completely ruins it, because there is no reasonable way for enemies to play around that. If you are a frontliner, Garen's sheer presence prevents you from being able to win a fight for your team.

LordGeovanniSep 12, 20181 votes

Garen is quite kiteable, so idea of heavily rewarding him for accessing a specific target makes sense,

this logic only makes sense if he only ever faces ranged champions on the enemy team consider that maybe melee champions that want to fight constantly will come into contact with him and it seems pretty unfair to be doing true damage to them not to mention shreading their armor and %max hp exicutions. Same with darius for all of the above along with his high damage stacking bleed.

TraustSep 12, 20189 votes

IMO Garen needs another rework. His W is unfun and his villain passive doesnt even feel like it works the way its supposed to half the time. His E passive armor shred needs to be reworked to an instant flat pen or something because I have a very hard time reliably getting the 4 ticks until mid-late game when I finally get the items to stick to people and by that time its kinda useless anyways with all the health everyone has. The part where his e can critically strike imo is useless unless you play urf, and potentially takes away from other damage modifiers that could be placed there instead of it maybe like a % of garens max health is converted to extra damage per spin. His R needs to have an execute indicator like some of the newer champs. There's a reason why garen mains cant get past masters and its not because of skill.

VelvetCrotchSep 12, 20181 votes

As a toplaner who hates to play vs garen, but still think he should be playable, I totally agree with you

HateDaddySep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

IMO Garen needs another rework. His W is unfun and his villain passive doesnt even feel like it works the way its supposed to half the time. His E passive armor shred needs to be reworked to an instant flat pen or something because I have a very hard time reliably getting the 4 ticks until mid-late game when I finally get the items to stick to people and by that time its kinda useless anyways with all the health everyone has. The part where his e can critically strike imo is useless unless you play urf, and potentially takes away from other damage modifiers that could be placed there instead of it maybe like a % of garens max health is converted to extra damage per spin. His R needs to have an execute indicator like some of the newer champs. There's a reason why garen mains cant get past masters and its not because of skill.

Right, I don’t mind Garen being playable. To be honest, he’s not even that great of a laner, especially against my pool of champions. It’s when the villain clown fiesta starts and I have to start praying it doesn’t become me because all of a sudden, that guy that I just stomped in lane is literally killing me for doing well and spreading my lead elsewhere.

AlzonSep 12, 20181 votes

Cleaver > PD > IE is definitely viable, although it was better when you could go IE before PD. Best if your team is lacking damage but has decent cc.

Jerry SeinfeIdSep 12, 20181 votes

Try Duskblade if you want your spin to be better early.

His crit on spin does not affect his powersbudget afaik. It's like ww's AP scaling, it's there for fun and to allow them to use those builds but they'll never be meta anyway.

True GarenSep 14, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=00040003,timestamp=2018-09-12T17:21:47.142+0000)

Try Duskblade if you want your spin to be better early.

His crit on spin does not affect his powersbudget afaik. It's like ww's AP scaling, it's there for fun and to allow them to use those builds but they'll never be meta anyway.

That's what I have heard also. ESPECIALLY with the IE rework, we don't have a good crit Garen build. Maybe this is intended as another lesson.

Jerry SeinfeIdSep 15, 20181 votes

i guess... i've been going duskblade triforce since last season so idk how it plays compared to crit. Stormrazor is pretty dope with it too as it's cd and your spin sync up pretty well, i only do that when ahead tho, mostly stick to the first 2 and steraks before going tanky.

Gotta cheese with bush during lane tho, that's pretty important.

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20183 votes

oh you mean like shut down gold and 4 sec death timers?

HateDaddySep 12, 201813 votes

{quoted}

oh you mean like shut down gold and 4 sec death timers?

Uhhh

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Uhhh

shut down gold/bounty punishes you for doing well also. you go 4-0-1 in lane stomping your enemy, one misplay or gank they kill you get 700g and instantly back in the game so the lead and good plays you did to that point null n void.

you kill someone early they miss no exp or cs cuz death timers are 4 seconds long at start of game. so it dont punished them for making a mistake.

need me to explain more?

HateDaddySep 12, 20189 votes

{quoted}

shut down gold/bounty punishes you for doing well also. you go 4-0-1 in lane stomping your enemy, one misplay or gank they kill you get 700g and instantly back in the game so the lead and good plays you did to that point null n void.

you kill someone early they miss no exp or cs cuz death timers are 4 seconds long at start of game. so it dont punished them for making a mistake.

need me to explain more?

You’re not instantly back in the game when you’ve died 4 times to someone and then reclaim 700 gold.

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You’re not instantly back in the game when you’ve died 4 times to someone and then reclaim 700 gold.

for the most part yea

HateDaddySep 12, 201810 votes

{quoted}

for the most part yea

No not at all

You’ve lost levels due to being dead

You’ve lost gold from being zoned

You’ve likely lost turrets while being unable to take turrets yourself

This isn’t even factoring in the gold you’ve fed by dying.

700 gold does not even come close to offsetting that.

Cute CubanSep 12, 20181 votes

The bounties are too much and the [early] spawn timers are too short. There's no incentive to make risky plays now. Either bounties or death timers should be nerfed.

There's nothing more tilting than going 4-0 in lane, getting ganked/outplayed once and losing your tower because your enemy laner has spawned 4 times in a minute. Dying should be the most punishable thing in this game.

HateDaddySep 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cute Cuban,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-12T13:28:56.990+0000)

The bounties are too much and the [early] spawn timers are too short. There's no incentive to make risky plays now. Either bounties or death timers should be nerfed.

There's nothing more tilting than going 4-0 in lane, getting ganked/outplayed once and losing your tower because your enemy laner has spawned 4 times in a minute. Dying should be the most punishable thing in this game.

Uhm, you killed someone 4 times and didn’t take their tower? I kill someone once after level 6 and their tower is usually gone lol.

TheSingularitySep 12, 20182 votes

Those tools are available for everyone and they don't win you fights, they reward you for winning fights.

Meanwhile garens Ult punishes opposition by allowing garen to win fights through stats alone without having to earn it. He then gets shutdown gold as a bonus

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Those tools are available for everyone and they don't win you fights, they reward you for winning fights.

Meanwhile garens Ult punishes opposition by allowing garen to win fights through stats alone without having to earn it. He then gets shutdown gold as a bonus

actually garen has to earn it. for 1 he has to get to you, its not like he can just press R and ult you anywhere on the map like karthus 2ndly garens ult cant no be amplified by ad/armor/hp/armor pen/ mr/ the only thing that effects is targets % missing hp , yes magic pen would make his ult stronger if ur not the villain but no one builds magic pen on garen.

there are two items that can completely negate his ult hex/maw or steraks also GA and just keeping distance

TheSingularitySep 12, 20183 votes

actually garen has to earn it. for 1 he has to get to you

So does every other melee top laner. Where's their special true damage execute rewards?

its not like he can just press R and ult you anywhere on the map like karthus

Doesn't deal true damage, doesn't deal bonus dmg against certain targets, doesn't deal bonus dmg based on missing health. Then it's an interruptible ult via death/CC, garen's keeps going regardless of those 2 factors.

2ndly garens ult cant no be amplified by ad/armor/hp/armor pen/ mr/ the only thing that effects is targets % missing hp

Instead it gets a stupidly high base damage. Higher than the base of many mage ults, which then gets the additional execution dmg and against the marked target even more damage in true dmg, scaling with their max health (so this portion will always chunk the same amount regardless of who is marked).

there are two items that can completely negate his ult hex/maw or steraks also GA and just keeping distance

They don't block true damage. And dependings on the current health of the target, will be irrelevant even if it's a maw. To top it off, the items apply to everything Should AurelionSol get true damage ult since maw blocks his? How about Amumu Annie Diana Gragas ? Who have lower base damage and no true damage

for 1 he has to get to you just keeping distance

" Garen cleanses himself of all Slow icon slows affecting him and gains Movement speed icon 30% bonus movement speed for a few seconds." "and has 60% Tenacity icon Tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds" "While spinning, Garen cannot basic attack and is Ghost ghosted."

It would appear he has many more tools than other juggernauts to help him close the distance.

Why doesn't Illaoi Mordekaiser Volibear get this true damage treatment?

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20181 votes

darius

TheSingularitySep 12, 20181 votes

Who does actually have to work for it. Garen's is there the moment the mark goes down. Meanwhile dari must do his 5 stacks. Not overly difficult but at the very least there's a condition that doesn't punish you for winning. (as it doesn't apply true damage just because you killed darius earlier unlike garen ult)

MrFawknSunshineSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Who does actually have to work for it. Garen's is there the moment the mark goes down. Meanwhile dari must do his 5 stacks. Not overly difficult but at the very least there's a condition that doesn't punish you for winning. (as it doesn't apply true damage just because you killed darius earlier unlike garen ult)

no it just applies true damage no matter what. and oh wait it scales with ad too. plus his passive and oh yeah he has free armor pen just for lvling E he dont have to hit you with 4 ticks of an ability to get armor pen

TheSingularitySep 12, 20181 votes

Addressing the rest of my wall of text would be more helpful than cherry picking. Otherwise I'll assume you agree with me.

no it just applies true damage no matter what.

My bad on that 1.

it scales with ad too

It has a pretty low base damage for an ult (lower than most mages/casters) hence why it scales. But then again cho gath has a similar ult, with higher base and scaling. His down side being he's easier to kite.

yeah he has free armor pen just for lvling E

This is my biggest problem with dari, however this doesn't mean anything as it doesn't affect his ultimate.

They're both easier to kite than garen as they don't have the speed boosts and cleanses he does. Darius' does deal significantly less damage without 5 passive stacks (as he loses the potential double dmg and the scaling from noxian might). And can be reacted to since it has a reasonable animation time: with an invul spell eg vlad, ekko. An hourglass if that suits the build or by stunning him. These methos generally won't work for garen as it's pretty much instant.

The problem raised in OP isn't that it deals true damage period, it's that it deals true damage against you because you got a kill. It punishes you for doing well, and rewards garen for either playing poorly, or doing nothing at all (say u kill the jungler)

Any other true damage champ be it Velkoz Chogath Gangplank Fiora , they deal the true damage regardless. They don't punish you for killing someone and they generally deal less damage due to it being less reliable (even cho is included here as he doesn't have the gap closing capabilities garen has)

Garen's ult is "Oh you killed me? Well now I get a special bonus to help me kill you next time".

If you want to give him true damage that's fine. Make his ult a true damage execution always. Lower the base damage, remove the passive interaction (scaling with garens health) and lower the execution scaling (enemies missing health). I;'d be fine with that. But he shouldn't be given a boost for doing badly or nothing at all

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20186 votes

{quoted}

So does every other melee top laner. Where's their special true damage execute rewards?

you mean the ones who dont already have loads of true damage like camille, fiora, olaf, darius? they get to have instant gap closers or other tools, like nasus wither to get to their targets.

Doesn't deal true damage, doesn't deal bonus dmg against certain targets, doesn't deal bonus dmg based on missing health.

because its global. entirely different abilities.

Then it's an interruptible ult via death/CC, garen's keeps going regardless of those 2 factors.

its not interruptable when he ults in his ghost form or simply somewhere far out of range. still, entirely different abilities. karthus ult has benefits that garens ult doesnt have, and garens ult has benefits that karthus ult doesnt have. karthus ult isnt even an execute.

Instead it gets a stupidly high base damage. Higher than the base of many mage ults, which then gets the additional execution dmg and against the marked target even more damage in true dmg, scaling with their max health (so this portion will always chunk the same amount regardless of who is marked).

unless youre ulting a tank who happens to be the villain for some reason, something that rarely ever happens, garens ult doesnt deal more damage than other execute. the only difference is that it doesnt reset or grants extra benefits on kill.

chogath gets the same benefit without the situational need of having a villain. same for pyke, and darius who has the stack mechanic instead.

They don't block true damage. And dependings on the current health of the target, will be irrelevant even if it's a maw.

theult isnt always true damage, and when garens ult kills you through a maw passive, youre already so low on health that you would die to an auto attack.

Should get true damage ult since maw blocks his? How about ? Who have lower base damage and no true damage

all entirely different ults with different purposes, aoe effects and additional abilities, like displacements and cc. not even close to comparable.

" Garen cleanses himself of all Slow icon slows affecting him and gains Movement speed icon 30% bonus movement speed for a few seconds."

manage your slows better and dont waste it before he pressed q.

"and has 60% Tenacity icon Tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds"

on a 24 second cooldown for most of the game.

"While spinning, Garen cannot basic attack and is Ghost ghosted."

how exactly does this make him less kitable? he still has to cross the distance.

It would appear he has many more tools than other juggernauts to help him close the distance.

Why doesn't get this true damage treatment?

because most of them have abilities that extend past their auto attack range.

illaoi has her tentacle slap and hook, morde has his e and w, yorick has his e and w, mundo and olaf have their q.

the only one comparable on that list is voli, since his kit is just as melee restricted as garens, and hes not exactly a great champion currently. make a guess why.

TheSingularitySep 12, 20182 votes

you mean the ones who dont already have loads of true damage like camille, fiora, olaf, darius? they get to have instant gap closers or other tools, like nasus wither to get to their targets.

Top laners with true damage: Camille Fiora Garen Chogath Darius Olaf Top laners without true damage: Aatrox DrMundo Ekko Gnar Gragas Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce Karthus Kassadin Kennen Kled Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Nasus Nautilus Ornn Pantheon Poppy Quinn Renekton Rengar Riven Rumble Ryze Shen Shyvana Singed Sion Swain TahmKench Teemo Trundle Urgot Volibear Vladimir MonkeyKing Yorick Yasuo Champions from any position that're given true damage against you because you got a kill: Garen

because its global. entirely different abilities. its not interruptable when he ults in his ghost form or simply somewhere far out of range. still, entirely different abilities. karthus ult has benefits that garens ult doesnt have, and garens ult has benefits that karthus ult doesnt have. karthus ult isnt even an execute.

I know. I was displaying the differences because the original comment bought up karthus for what ever reason as if the ults have anything to do with one another

unless youre ulting a tank who happens to be the villain for some reason, something that rarely ever happens, garens ult doesnt deal more damage than other execute. the only difference is that it doesnt reset or grants extra benefits on kill.

chogath gets the same benefit without the situational need of having a villain. same for pyke, and darius who has the stack mechanic instead.

He gets the higher base damage (almost double that of darius) in exchange and double scaling (max health and missing health). He doesn't get the bells and whistles because Darius' and Cho's are arguably harder to apply as they have less gap closing tools and are thus easier to peel/kite.

all entirely different ults with different purposes, aoe effects and additional abilities, like displacements and cc. not even close to comparable.

The point here isn't slap true damage onto this and that, it's why does garen get a hand holding true damage boost against opponents who get kills? Those abilities deal less damage, period. Regardless of use case. Why, if I kill garen in lane, am I punished next time we fight because he has a true damage ult against me now? In what universe is that fair?

manage your slows better and dont waste it before he pressed q. on a 24 second cooldown for most of the game. how exactly does this make him less kitable? he still has to cross the distance.

You may not have a slow and not using your slow means garen gets a free ticket on top of you, fair and because the usage case is often during lane where often minions could be utilized to slow him down.

because most of them have abilities that extend past their auto attack range.

So do olaf, darius, fiora, cho'gath and camille yet they still have true damage. But what about champs that don't? Like kled.

Edit: just gonna bump that vote back to neutral

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Top laners with true damage: Top laners without true damage: Champions from any position that're given true damage against you because you got a kill:

a lot of those are a stretch or not even melee.

you asked whats different between garen and other melee top laners who have to get to their target?

most of them either dont have to get directly to their target, like illaoi, or they have instant gap closers, hooks or other similar ranged abilities that help them get to their target.

volibear is literally one of the few exceptions to the rule, and hes trash because of it.

He gets the higher base damage (almost double that of darius) in exchange and double scaling (max health and missing health).

there is no double scaling on garens ult. there is only % missing health scaling. and all you did was point out how garen gets a benefit where darius gets another. darius ult resets and applies true damage to any target he gets stacked on. garens ult has higher base damage against the villain, but it doesnt reset or grants other additional benefits like all the other execute ults. against non villains the damage is significantly reduced by mr.

He doesn't get the bells and whistles because Darius' and Cho's are arguably harder to apply as they have less gap closing tools and are thus easier to peel/kite.

the true damage execute against a single target that he cant chose himself is the "bells and whistles".

darius gap closing tool is his hook. cho has multiple ranged aoe cc abilities to get him in range.

The point here isn't slap true damage onto this and that, it's why does garen get a hand holding true damage boost against opponents who get kills?

he gets the true damage against the person with the most kills to make it situational.

Why, if I kill garen in lane, am I punished next time we fight because he has a true damage ult against me now? In what universe is that fair?

you dont get punished for that. because you cant become the villain by killing garen. the passive only counts towards kills against his allies.

You may not have a slow and not using your slow means garen gets a free ticket on top of you, fair and because the usage case is often during lane where often minions could be utilized to slow him down.

if he doesnt use his q, he has to literally walk at you. have you tried walking in the opposite direction?

So do olaf, darius, fiora, cho'gath and camille yet they still have true damage. But what about champs that don't? Like kled.

he has a double dash and his hilbilly hook. see point 1. if youre asking why calille gets true damage into her kit when kled doesnt, then i dont know. but garen gets more average damage than kled (only against the villain), because hes a much slower jugger, and kled is a mobile diver with team engage.

The problem raised in OP isn't that it deals true damage period, it's that it deals true damage against you because you got a kill. It punishes you for doing well, and rewards garen for either playing poorly, or doing nothing at all (say u kill the jungler)

youre focusing too much on this idea of "being punished for doing well" when the purpose of the villainy passive is to make garens juggernaut damage situational.

if you were to remove the villainy passive and buff the rest of his kit in return, hed be more stat checky and almost as powerful as against the villain now, against anything infront of him.

personally i wouldnt give a shit, since it would make him all around more powerful, but you can bet that there would be more complaints about him (especially by low elo) than before.

lets say we remove villainy and the situational true damage on his ult.

he still needs the damage to be a juggernaut. in return they could just give him the 1% max health true damage on spins and auto attacks against any target.

that would give you even less ability to play around his kit.

General MattySep 12, 20181 votes

Amumu has true damage due to his passive effect.

NemeBroSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

oh you mean like shut down gold and 4 sec death timers?

Everyone benefits from those, and those don't punish a player for playing well and getting ahead, they punish an ahead player for making a mistake.

Terrible comparison. Just awful.

Somber RitesSep 12, 20183 votes

The guy just needs a rework already. His kit is antiquated and aids to fight.

LeftyRaydySep 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Somber Rites,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-09-12T16:25:53.748+0000)

The guy just needs a rework already. His kit is antiquated and aids to fight.

Garen Rework:

Q now does True Silence and locks the enemies keyboard to prevent any action W - Now provides true damage instead of defence E - Now you can do a second cast to blink to an enemy R - Added AOE damage to surrounding enemies who will take 99% of damage taken by the initial target.

Somber RitesSep 12, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Garen Rework:

Q now does True Silence and locks the enemies keyboard to prevent any action W - Now provides true damage instead of defence E - Now you can do a second cast to blink to an enemy R - Added AOE damage to surrounding enemies who will take 99% of damage taken by the initial target.

Brought to you by CertainlyT

LeftyRaydySep 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Somber Rites,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JFYzA0No,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-09-12T17:32:32.466+0000)

Brought to you by CertainlyT

Riot Employees: Another success by our best champion developer!

Weiner the PoohSep 12, 20181 votes

Where’s the reset factor? Not modern enough.

PalaverSep 12, 20182 votes

I don't think it needs to be taken away. Just nerfed a little bit.

HateDaddySep 12, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it needs to be taken away. Just nerfed a little bit.

It needs to be taken away so Riot can actually give Garen meaningful buffs in return. Nerfing it only results in him being garbage again. I’m quite sure Garen players don’t want him to be trash.

Romans VI XXIIISep 12, 20182 votes

They need to do a small rework to him. This is the Direction I would Like to see.

#1. Make the Villain Mechanic tied to Q, but increase Q CD by 3-5s. So that Q marks the target as the villain for 5 seconds. Keep the scaling/availability tied to R. Killing the Villain Resets Q.

This Kinda kills 2 birds with 1 stone. 1 Nerfing the Q up-time, giving more Counter-play while its on CD, and making it so the Villain Mechanic is no longer more of an RNG thing and its more controlled. It also gives Garen a reward for Killing the Villain, and makes it so that Garen can not just Flash > R the Villain, it will require set up.

IMO the mechanic needs to stay in some form or fashion, as Garen has no way of dealing with Tanks other than hoping they are the Villain atm.

#2. Give E AS scaling, this should already be a thing honestly.

This opens up more building paths for Garen while not actually buffing Tank/bruiser Garen

#3. Change his Passive to a shielding mechanic along the lines of: Hitting enemies builds stacks of Perseverance, at 100 stacks Garen gains a shield for a % of his Max HP for X seconds, at the end of the duration Garen is healed for 50% of the remaining shield. Hitting enemy champions and large/epic monsters gives more stacks. Stacks fall off slowly while out of combat.

I would use his resource bar to show his current stack %. And this would give Garen a passive that is actually useful for fighting and dueling with, and move away from the "Run in trade, sit back and heal" aspect that is Garen. As a Garen main I feel his passive is utterly useless early game (can easily be constantly poked to keep it off, and its actual regen is pretty much shit.) and completely broken post 11, where I constantly tower-dive to 10% HP run away and have it all back in a matter of a few seconds. If you cant kill Garen Post 11 before he can escape, then its pointless even attacking him as he will have full HP in a few seconds and will be running back in at you. Changing it to this mechanic gives boths sides something to work with/around that is alot more interactive.

[garen-swing]

SharukenSep 12, 20182 votes

If you're the villain just play safe. ez

True GarenSep 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

If you're the villain just play safe. ez

That's really the answer.

"villain mechanic is legit it's not perfect but it serves a purpose

villain can see that they are villain so they should respect that and not go near Garen alone that's what I would recommend"

Garen is a teaching champion, not just for the player, but for the others in his game. The Villain mechanic highlights what would be correct play anyway.

As has been pointed out, it actually makes Garen weaker, by taking so much out of his power budget for all enemies NOT the Villain. Garen is only really dangerous, to the one enemy player who is in the best position (presumably) to handle it.

StephenizgodSep 12, 20181 votes

It doesn't work if you are only killing Garen, you can't become the Villain unless you are killing his allies. I agree that Villain mechanic should be removed, but for a completely different reason. I think the Villain mechanic holds him back, despite his current spike in power due to him maxing Q instead of E, he is a lackluster champion. If the power budget of his Villain mechanic was instead put to something else to make him less one dimensional, he would be a better champion overall. Not saying we should change him drastically, just that its not my favorite mechanic. They should just individually redo all the class update champions they did because every single one of them is a problem in some way.

rayzoSep 12, 20181 votes

IMO the villain passive should be changed into giving him more power vs lane bullies like darius/renekton in the form of a stronger healing passive

HommeGoujonSep 12, 20181 votes

I've played REnekton a lot recently but I hate playing against garen. Apparently he's not supposed to be difficult to deal with but SMH i always fuck up, I have no clue how to deal with him and it feels like he outdmages, outsustains me all the time it's so annoying. If you have any tips, please tell me, thx

Ignika DSep 12, 20181 votes

i love making a good roam and return to lane so garen can kill me from the free damage he got for me playing well*[slayer-jinx-wink]* and dont come he is easy to outplay bs no one play this game well below dia 4 so i have to be on top 2% players to be able to deal with him well

Bob the ToastrSep 12, 20181 votes

It would honestly be better if he got increased move speed towards the villain or took reduced damage from them instead of getting bonus true damage. Though I understand that even more move speed would be hard to balance with his Q and W.

mack9112Sep 12, 20181 votes

He is simply a champion that does very well in the current meta . Is he damage output a little overtuned ? Yes , but he has clear weakness and strengths with multiple strong counters along with plenty of outplay potential.