Why the fuck is Graves a Tanky Assassin Fighter Marksmen all at the same time?

Neidox·Apr 5, 2016·140 votes·6,853 views

I don't know what the hell Riot is doing this season but fuck that Champion. Hitting one bullet should do like 50%damage while hitting multiple does more. He isn't punished for attacking from afar and is rewarded for attacking in melee 10fold.

   WHY THE FUCK DOES AN ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY HAVE AN ARMOR/MAGIC RESISTANCE STEROID THAT STACKS AND REFRESHES ON AUTO ATTACK AND GIVES HIM MOBILITY!?

It lets him fill all roles. This piece of shit champion can go into any lane and win it. Its so stupid, I would die if a rioter could rationally explain these changes to Graves to me. Because I know they can't, hes an irrational shit show that is terrorizing this game.

115 Comments

Jon1174Apr 5, 201670 votes

Because that's what happens when you don't smoke kids [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ArthurGoldenKingApr 5, 20165 votes

See, kids? He's so strong now! You should be inspired by him!

ArakadiaApr 5, 20165 votes

I think if they give back his cigar, he would be balanced again.

Supreme VicApr 5, 201634 votes

OP is tilted about 60 degrees.

MhihnjApr 5, 20164 votes

i can wager it's a bit more

crippler38Apr 5, 20166 votes

if it were any more he'd be basically on the floor though

Ozag the MightyApr 5, 201624 votes

It's cause they took his cigar...if you've ever seen anyone trying to quit smoking, you'll realize they're bat shit crazy without their fix...so he's just going berserk.

Pandemic PunchApr 5, 20162 votes

Winner

A Miss FortuneApr 5, 201610 votes

The worst thing is fighting a Graves with the new Warlord's Bloodlust and any other form of Lifesteal. His autos do significantly more damage than other ADCs so him applying Lifesteal basically heals up his entire health bar.

DurfainApr 5, 20165 votes

We got him low guys! Oh dear Sterak's Gage and Maw of Malmortius popped and in those three seconds he's healed back up to full health.

ZorasamaApr 5, 20169 votes

He's more like a mid-range fighter.

Critmaster GarenApr 5, 201621 votes

{quoted}

He's more like a mid-range fighter.

even close range fighters dont get 120 armor/mr steroids. such an excessive amount of defenses is usually reserved for actual tanks.

either they need to remove bruiser items as an option for him, or nerf his e so it simply doesnt stack.

he cant be a ranged, mobile bruiser period. especially one with the strongest defense steroids in the game.

WoonStruckApr 5, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JABJ5z3l,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-05T03:31:02.650+0000)

even close range fighters dont get 120 armor/mr steroids. such an excessive amount of defenses is usually reserved for actual tanks.

either they need to remove bruiser items as an option for him, or nerf his e so it simply doesnt stack.

he cant be a ranged, mobile bruiser period. especially one with the strongest defense steroids in the game.

Don't forget that his autos each hit with the power of 2; 4 for crits, 5 with IE. That's not even considering the crit damage.

His passive needs to be toned down.

Compare to Lucian. Lucian effectively hits for 1.5 autos, cause he's going to be weaving 9/10 of the time. Think of how strong Lucian is. Now compare the passives, initial and final scaling, strength of abilities, and utility.

The only way to balance Graves would be to balance his attack speed like Jhin's, reduce the power of his passive by at least 25%, remove his defensive steroid, change his W from a utility skill to a pure damage skill to move the damage from his Q+ult to (to force more mana consumption), or remove his reload on quickdraw. In addition to one of these, nerf his ult's burst, range, AoE size, or the self-knockback.

Graves' passive's current state is the equivalent to doubling Varus' Q damage. Niches should be solid, but not to the point where they're OP in any situation. Someone at Riot needs to be fired. Preferably the entire balance department for not taking care of the Graves situation.

nfzetaApr 6, 20163 votes

damn that seems a bit harsh. You would basically gut him with these changes. Graves is actually walking a finer line than ppl may think.

iamleburkApr 6, 20162 votes

Yea he's still a short ranged adc. He also has to be played top or jungle, taking away a reliable tank line and possibly initiation from your team.

despisefulApr 7, 20161 votes

Graves has the reload mechanic and a slower fire rate to boot plus and again less range

WoonStruckApr 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Graves has the reload mechanic and a slower fire rate to boot plus and again less range

Yeah, and its DEFINITELY been enough to keep him in check, right? Right?

Only Play DariusApr 5, 20168 votes

They gave him absurd resistances because they expected him (along with most other ADC's) to continue building straight glass, so he needs something to survive with his short range and reload time.

And the 120 resists would be totally fine if he actually did build straight glass. All they need to do is make Steraks melee only and it would solve about 50% of the ADC balance problems.

NeidoxApr 5, 20169 votes

He feels so unfun to play against. He just YOLOS all over my face while laughing "lol 0 fucking damage".

KVbqbFsC8eApr 5, 20168 votes

Because Riot balance.

Hedgehog HustlerApr 5, 20166 votes

Diana "Melee mage assassin tank fighter jungler"

Lady HammerlockApr 5, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Dreemurr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JABJ5z3l,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-04-05T12:32:25.653+0000)

"Melee mage assassin tank fighter jungler"

atleast her auto attacks are melee and for her burst to even be remotely relevant she actually has to land a skill of some sort

Dr PoroApr 5, 20161 votes

Graves doesn't need to land a skill? His AA AA dash AA combo is too strong to tank!

Trynd Only SorryApr 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JABJ5z3l,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2016-04-05T15:50:17.720+0000)

Graves doesn't need to land a skill? His AA AA dash AA combo is too strong to tank!

There's also a HUGE difference in the difficulty levels of melee and ranged. Melee is about 10x harder, at least.

Bladerunner7777Apr 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trynd Only Sorry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JABJ5z3l,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-05T21:55:47.301+0000)

Melee is about 10x harder, at least.

Not really

I play adc occasionally and attacking while positioning is infinitely harder than standing point blank and "killing them until they die"

sure Graves MIGHT be an exception but saying AD melee is harder than AD ranged is wrong

Trynd Only SorryApr 6, 20162 votes

Have you ever played as a squishy melee?

Sniper 0Apr 5, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Dreemurr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JABJ5z3l,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-04-05T12:32:25.653+0000)

"Melee mage assassin tank fighter jungler"

She actually has to commit to melee range to kill someone. Graves can sit back a bit and kite a lot more effectively. Plus Diana doesn't have hidden resistances in her kit. So the amount of damage she's taking isn't going to drop dramatically. Plus she can't viably build sterak's gauge or MoM.

Weasel KenseiApr 5, 20165 votes

You know, they make jokes about being multiple roles in those satirical champ spotlight videos on youtube...

Problem is Rito keeps making actual "Everywhere / every role" champs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcIYp9nQcQ&feature=iv&src_vid=ui9egS_0PQ8&annotation_id=annotation_3554632431

This one always makes me laugh:

Hank Hill is a high mobility support, mid, jungling, melee ADC castor adept at harass, burst damage, and selling propane and propane accessories.

If we got a champ that had all that stuff we would have release Ekko the AD version... but the point is, why play any champ other than the ones who can do it all? Especially when theyre the best in all those roles. Rito please... balance yo shit.

VekknaApr 5, 20163 votes

Graves' problem is that he gets preposterous amounts of tank stats for free in his kit. 120 armor and MR turns his 2k hp into 4400 effective hp, and gives his 380 Maw shield 836 effective hp. Sterak's gives him 880 effective hp with a shield proc for around 1100 ehp (at the low end).

120 armor is equal to item 3110 item 1029 120 MR is equal to item 3102 item 1033

So yeah, the issue with Graves is that he passively gets more than double the value out of hp and lifesteal. And if you do manage to burst him down, you have to burn through shields that add up to a second full hp bar.

And while Graves scales ridiculously well with hp, Sterak's is usually the only hp item he builds. Unlike true tanks, %hp damage isn't especially effective against him, and it's further reduced by his massive resists.

Graves has all the hallmark juggernaut traits...but with a dash, long range aoe, and team utility. He's a juggernaut without any of the supposed weaknesses that are supposed to keep juggernauts in check.

I don't think Graves is inherently broken, just grossly overpowered. The best nerf, imo, would be to put a bonus AD ratio on his passive armor/MR. That would put an end to his god-tank status after finishing an early Sterak's, and it would generally keep his ehp lower. In the alternative, hit his damage hard enough to force him into long fights; that would at least justify his mobility and durability.

Trynd Only SorryApr 5, 20163 votes

Remove the armor/mr steroid IMO. just remove it entirely with no compensation. Honestly that'd probably balance him.

MisterShamelessApr 6, 20161 votes

Maybe tone it down. Have it cap out at 90 with 2 more stacks added to reach the max amount.

Trynd Only SorryApr 6, 20163 votes

Or just remove it entirely and have him build defensive stats if he wants them. Melee "adcs" have to; why should graves, who is ranged too, be an exception?

hickernellApr 6, 20161 votes

he doesn't get them for free he has to use a skill to get them... thats lie saying take away the damage reduction on alistairs r because everyone else has to build tanky to get dmg reduction why shouldnt he?....see my point?

hickernellApr 6, 20161 votes

also i could i could list off a whole lot of champions that have dmg reduction on one of their abilities which isnt inherently bad

Trynd Only SorryApr 6, 20161 votes

And I'm sure most of those are tanks/bruisers/juggernauts. Most of which pay the penalty of being melee for one, and two, having a lower damage output.

hickernellApr 7, 20161 votes

i do agree that most of the champions that have dmg reduction are melee bruisersish...but i believe hes more of a byproduct of certain items synergizing with him really well then anything else... honestly if they lowered the dmg each individual shot did then i think a lot of the stuff people complain about would be gone.

Maybe make each bullet do around 60% of ad so he has to get close to get the burst off? and see how that works?

hickernellApr 7, 20161 votes

also he was given the tank stats because he was supposed to be taken into a lane where almost every char outranges him but it didnt work out....also maybe lower is base damages and raise his ratios so he doesnt have the same dmg output as an adc while building semi tanky?

Lajinn5Apr 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

he doesn't get them for free he has to use a skill to get them... thats lie saying take away the damage reduction on alistairs r because everyone else has to build tanky to get dmg reduction why shouldnt he?....see my point?

Graves is an adc, adcs should not get massive amounts of innate tankiness, it is contrary to everything about their class

LusokaApr 5, 20163 votes

Good news Ellky! You won't have to worry about dying today! Because a red won't ever show up.

Sum Wun SpeshalApr 5, 20163 votes

~~assassin~~ Kind of obvious spell rotation for an assassin don't you think? Diana would be a better assassin and she's not even considered an assassin

~~marksman~~ 425 range makes him borderline melee. Mini Gnar gets better range at higher levels. Or is Urgot considered a marksman too?

Fighter This is more fitting.

HayRossApr 5, 20162 votes

Urgot It also could be argued that this guy is a tanky assassin fighter marksman

Linna ExcelApr 5, 20162 votes

But he sucks, he's creepy, and everyone hates playing him.

HayRossApr 5, 20164 votes

Maybe if he had a cigar...

VekknaApr 5, 20167 votes

Who is gated heavily by mana, has no dash, deals sustained damage only after landing a very slow skillshot, and has to actually build tank items.

Only Play DariusApr 5, 20162 votes

I want to like the Graves rework. But as it stands he's just too strong. Slash the resists from his quick draw, if he wants to build HP items let him, but don't give him 120 armor/MR expecting him to build glass because we all know he won't. And that's fine as long as he remains a beefy shotgunner without being tank/juggernaut levels of durable.

Maximum MordeApr 5, 20162 votes

You forgot support. Support Graves is legit. Best CC is giving someone a shotgun mouthwash. They can't hurt your ADC if you splattered their brains all over the rift.

46104328_DELApr 5, 20162 votes

And Jungler. Don't forget Jungler.

And as was said below, because they took his Cigar. This is his reperations

QuephaApr 5, 20161 votes

No one realizes how much of Graves' durability rests in his E passive and they don't realize how to make it drop off. You have to get your whole team to back off of him for 4 consecutive seconds while he's also away from a tower or jungle camps, and then go in and focus him. This isn't really well communicated even if you read through how his kit works because the wording is very clunky.

M0RDEKA1SERApr 5, 20164 votes

Yeah..... Just keep him away from everything on the map so he can't auto to refresh the CD.... Oh wait, you can't. Every square inch of the map has something to shoot at. If not;

Graves "LOLZ YOLO, imma just hit E again to refresh it and now I'm close enough to auto something! GGEZ SCRUBS GIT REKT!"