Some clear cases where the item designers didn't learn from past mistakes

The Ecdysiast·Oct 10, 2018·109 votes·21,425 views

Needed to be removed because simply giving a burst champion more damage to their target for the duration of their burst doesn't make sense. If one champion needs more damage for their burst, they need buffs. Having it on an item means you have to hand out nerfs. While the method is different, the outcome is the same.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/6f/Will_of_the_Ancients_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20171223021758 Needed to be removed because ranged champions aren't supposed to have the fallback of buying spellvamp to overcome champions who get close-up. (And due to Swain and Vlad, but they were adjusted accordingly anyway so it made no difference to them) The wiki specifically states that it was due to the fact only Swain and Vlad bought it regularly, which is similar to Gunblade's current state. Meanwhile, gunblade remains in the game despite also only being bought by two champions, Kat and Akali, champions who thanks to their incredible mobility and high damage also shouldn't get the fallback of healing all their HP if someone closes in. Like Will, which most AP champs didn't buy, the only other champions who could realistically buy it, Jax and Kayle, rarely do-- while other champs that might such as Kai'sa, Ezreal, or Diana, never do.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/3e/Cloak_of_Agility_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20171221061253 "Needed" to be removed because it provided too much of an advantage if you happened to get crits early in the game. So they decided that the solution was to instead guarantee said crits and give an extra bonus on top of them.

132 Comments

DerMangoJoghurtOct 10, 201846 votes

I think the comparison between item 3128 and item 3147 isn't really fair. Simply reducing it to "it gives you more damage" makes almost every item fit into that category. The difference between them is that Duskblade is very controlled compared to Deathfire. You only get the extra damage once per fight unless you have invisibility, in which case you can get it twice or rarely thrice. But usually it's just one single amplified hit, capping at 150 damage on level 18. Deathfire Grasp does something similar, but it deals more upfront damage and also amplifies your entire spell rotation by 20% assuming you deal magic damage. It was originally intended as tank busting item in which cases that would make sense since they can take it, squishies can't. Not to mention that the initial damage is in %max health, making itemization against it a bit more difficult.

Basically, they both share a strong hit at the start of your combo. But that's where the similarities end.

What really happened is that Deathfire Grasp was meant for tank busting but got replaced by Liandry's. So it got used for amplifying burst instead. Burst mages had to be nerfed which resulted in them becoming entirely dependent on it to have enough damage in their rotation. Duskblade has some of those issues, but way less extreme.

MoonshadeOct 10, 20183 votes

by that logic they could bring back Deathfire and just change the flat 20% amplification to a % MR shred so it is less effective on Squishies and then maybe change the upfront damage to something more in line with the AD version of the item ( item 3153 ) and have it say only deal 10% current HP

EeyoreOct 10, 20182 votes

EDIT: I didn't realize I was going to get chewed out for arbitrary examples.

The stated issue with DFG is that it gave too much front-loaded damage to champions that already had front-loaded damage, as well as allowing champions without front-loaded damage to pretend to be an assassin (e.g. Evelynn's old DFG+Ult combo allowed her to KO people without even using her other abilities).

Duskblade is definitely the same issue, and has spent the last year receiving exactly the same complaints that DFG used to get - i.e. no time to react. Referencing my Evelynn example, there's plenty of champions who are suppose to use a sustained-damage paradigm who can buy items like Duskblade and Stormrazor to just instantly delete people (e.g. Nocturne, whose kit awards him loads of steroids for correct plays that he simply doesn't need because the enemy is dead). Part of Duskblade's problem is, in my opinion, the 5-second grace period on the buff - I don't think there's inherently a problem to an "ambush" item because there's obvious ways to counter an ambush (the issue is that those counters don't actually work versus the item).

PB4UAMEOct 11, 20183 votes

I was with you and almost upvoted until this utter nonsense

" It was replaced by Liandry's as a "less bursty" implementation for tank-busting, since one of the "original goals" of DFG was to give mages access to tank-busting."

Yeah, no, that's not at all what happened nor why.

Liandry's was added, independently and before the removal of DFG, (or even that incarnation of DFG) as a response to years of Haunting Guise being a deadend item with no build path that you had to sell. Similar to Hexdrinker, which also used to be a deadend item before Maw and a different alternative upgrade which no longer exists were added.

Also, stacking liandry's, lich bane and DFG as DFGaren in ranked is some of the most fun I have ever had in League. I miss that build terribly.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 11, 20181 votes

there's lots of AD champions at the moment that are abusing items such as Duskblade and Stormrazor to just Dash+OneShot (e.g. Nocturne, Xin Zhao).

Xin Zhao buys neither of those things... Duskblade buy rate: 0.0051, Stormrazor buy rate: 0.0080

According to Lolalytics, in well over 93 thousand Xin Zhao plat+ games in the past week, literally less than 750 people bought Stormrazor, and less than 480 people bought Duskblade.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/XinZhao/Jungle/

EeyoreOct 11, 20181 votes

I never said he bought either of those things. I listed him, along with Nocturne and Evelynn, as champions who can benefit from items like this to change how they're suppose to be played.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 11, 20181 votes

I never said he bought either of those things.

Yes, you did. You literally did.

there's lots of AD champions at the moment that are abusing items such as Duskblade and Stormrazor to just Dash+OneShot (e.g. Nocturne, Xin Zhao).

How can Xin be one of the champions that "at the moment are abusing items such as Duskblade and Stormrazor" (quite literally your own exact words) when he buys neither Duskblade or Stormrazor?

I listed him, along with Nocturne and Evelynn, as champions who can benefit from items like this to change how they're suppose to be played.

Xin Zhao does NOT benefit enough from either Duskblade or Stormrazor to justify their cost, otherwise more people would buy those items.

EeyoreOct 12, 20181 votes

I'm sorry out of the dozens of AD champions (with a dash that sets them up for an autoattack) from which I picked two random examples: that I picked one that didn't have statistical backing. If you don't agree with my point, then fine, I'm not going to argue for it so you're wasting your time; and if you do agree with my point and are literally just getting arsey over a bad example, then I don't care (it's not my problem you have a hairline trigger).

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

That's kind of because setting up Guinsoo's and his jungle item consumes the bulk of his damage making itemization. If he had a 7th item slot he'd definitely get it :)

xxxDogmanxxxOct 12, 20181 votes

Xin Zhao doesn't really buy Guinsoo's Rageblade either... in over 95 thousand games this past seven days, only 2200 people bought it.

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

I think the site you are looking at is updated for 8.20 patch..... in which the last 7 day stats actually only reflects Thursday..... Guinsoo's is super common on Xin Zhao right now.... it doubles his healing capacity....

xxxDogmanxxxOct 12, 20181 votes

What are you even talking about? Guinsoo's Rageblade hasn't been popular on Xin Zhao since early-Season SIX, let alone seven or eight.

OPGG: Guinsoo nowhere in the top 30 items bought on Xin Zhao. League of Graphs: 0.048 buy rate, 165,448 matches analyzed. Lolalytics: 2221 people bought Rageblade, 97245 matches analyzed.

Also, it doesn't double his healing capacity. A 6-stack Guinsoo's Rageblade gives Xin Zhao two counts of his passive instead of one every other auto-attack. Meaning he'll proc his passive healing after two auto-attacks instead of three, but it still only gives you one proc's worth of healing.

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

Guinsoo's doubles LIFE STEAL bonuses (They are an on hit mechanic).

And..... Guinsoo's isn't even the same item as Season 6....

The sites you are mentioning also put Guinsoo's in Xin's highest Win rate category, have it presented as one of only 7 items that break 60% win rate on the build, two of which actually have a lower representation than Guinsoo's ( item 3142 item 3095 )

The reason Guinsoo's has a a low representation isn't because it's a bad item. It's because games rarely last into full builds, and the item optimization is too open.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 12, 20181 votes

Guinsoo's doubles LIFE STEAL bonuses (They are an on hit mechanic).

Xin Zhao DOESN'T EVEN HAVE life steal bonuses in his kit. He has healing, NOT lifesteal. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE, LEARN IT.

And..... Guinsoo's isn't even the same item as Season 6....

Which is EXACTLY WHY Xin Zhao hasn't bought it since then. Early Season 6 Guinsoo's was broken on Xin Zhao. Then they changed the item in patch 6.9, and Xin Zhao stopped buying it in favor of other items.

The sites you are mentioning also put Guinsoo's in Xin's highest Win rate category, have it presented as one of only 7 items that break 60% win rate on the build, two of which actually have a lower representation than Guinsoo's (Ghostblade and Stormrazor)

Are you even serious right now? WIN RATE =/= PICK RATE. If a single player bought a Rod of Ages on Xin Zhao and won, Rod of Ages would have 100% win rate on Xin Zhao. That doesn't mean the item is broken, or even good, on him. And it certainly doesn't mean that it's "super common" on him (your exact words). Similarly, just because Guinsoo's has a high winrate doesn't mean the item is super good or super common on him either.

The reason Guinsoo's has a a low representation isn't because it's a bad item.

Literally nowhere in any of my posts did I say it's a bad item. I just corrected the misinformation that YOU seem to deliberately be trying to spread.

It's because games rarely last into full builds, and the item optimization is too open.

The real reason Guinsoo's isn't bought is that, simply put, there are just FAR BETTER items on Xin Zhao than Guinsoo's Rageblade. For example, Trinity Force.

Numbers don't lie. Guinsoo was bought by about 2200 people, meanwhile Triforce was bought by 65600 people. Triforce is literally bought almost THIRTY TIMES AS MUCH as Guinsoo.

And before you even try to claim it, I'm gonna preemptively say that almost nobody buys both in the same game. Only 527 out of 95245 have bought both Triforce and Guinsoo, and of the people that did, literally zero bought Guinsoo first.

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

Literally every single thing about Guinsoo's has been Buffed!. Why the f would Xin stop buying it? Stats don't lie; it's the #1 build item
Win rate doesn't correlate with plausibility. People are stupid, and follow a meta down lower performances because it's "meta." In this case, rushing expensive items like and putting off much more useful utility like Guinsoo's and Youmuu's (Youmuu's decimates on Xin far more than Triforce rush does)
2230 is a large enough sample size by far to be statistically significant. (most studies only require 30 to only assume a margin of 5% deviance)
Numbers DO lie. Popular meta synergies between 2 items OFTEN cloud the correct builds. Guinsoo's Xin is a monster than can 1v5 a team. Triforce rush might Isolate and kill one person, but then he's dead too. He trades. He can only even proc Triforce twice per round of cooldowns. NOT THE BEST USER.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 12, 20181 votes

Jesus Christ, you have got to be trolling, lol.

Literally every single thing about Guinsoo's has been Buffed!. Why the f would Xin stop buying it?

Now you're just speaking complete and utter nonsense. In early season 6, Guinsoo used to cost 2500 gold, they made it 3600 gold in patch 6.9. It used to give 35 AD, now it gives 25 AD. It used to give 50 AP, now it gives 25 AP. Used to deal 20 (+15% bonus AD) (+7.5% AP) AOE bonus on-hit damage on every hit, now it does 5 (+ 10% bonus AD) physical and 5 (+ 10% AP) magical damage to a single target.

To "compensate" for the near literal gutting that it received, Riot gave it a shitty stack-gated version of the former Sated Devourer item's permanent passive.

And you wonder why Xin Zhao stopped buying Rageblade?

Stats don't lie; it's the #1 build item

WHAT STATS DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER? Go ahead and link them, but I'm sure you won't be able to because nobody but you are saying that Guinsoo is the number 1 item.

Pick Rate? Nope, by your own words Stats don't lie, and the stats prove that almost nobody buys it.

Win rate? Still nope.

Guardian Angel is higher, which btw is also bought about four times as much as Guinsoo. Titanic Hydra also has a higher win rate, and it's bought 2.5 times as much as Guinsoo. Heck, STERAK'S GAGE has a higher win rate, and it's bought 18000 times compared to Guinsoo's 2200 times

Professional builds? Nope, Triforce usage dominates. Guinsoo nowhere to be found.

Solo queue challenger, master, diamond, platinum builds? Nope, Triforce still dominates. Guinsoo nowhere to be found.

So again, WHAT STATS? You literally have no ground to stand on at any and all fronts.

BoRK

Ironically, even BORK is more bought than Guinsoo's, and there's literally less than 2700 people who have bought BoRK out of 97245 games. And the portion of people who buy both of them on Xin Zhao in a single game are so miniscule and statistically insignificant that it's not even worth mentioning.

Win rate doesn't correlate with plausibility. People are stupid, and follow a meta down lower performances because it's "meta." In this case, rushing expensive items like Triforce and Sterak's and putting off much more useful utility like Guinsoo's and Youmuu's (Youmuu's decimates on Xin far more than Triforce rush does).

Youmuu's and Guinsoo's putting off much more useful utility than Triforce and Sterak's?? Bwahahaha! Whatever it is you're smoking, it can't be good for your health, lol.

Youmuu's provides damage, CDR, out-of-combat movement speed, and a 6-second active movement speed with a 45 second cooldown. Triforce provides FAR MORE damage, TWICE AS MUCH CDR, and PERMANENT movement speed. Not to mention HP, Mana, and Attack Speed.

Guinsoo is even LESS utility than Youmuu's, providing only Damage, and Attack Speed. Even with the Guinsoo's Passive fully stacked, Triforce procs completely outclass its damage, and has 40% attack speed right off the bat instead of having to stack it up. You'd have to auto-attack three times with an already fully stacked Guinsoo, to beat even one triforce proc's damage. And Guinsoo gives no HP, no mana, no CDR, and no movement speed.

2230 is a large enough sample size by far to be statistically significant. (most studies only require 30 to only assume a margin of 5% deviance)

You just proved that have no idea what "statistically significant" or even what "sample" means. 2221 isn't the sample. The sample is the 97245 Xin Zhao games analyzed out of the millions of league of legends games. You really wanna get into this with me? I have a masters degree in Econometrics, dude. 2221 Guinsoo buyers out 97245 is just the raw data point. Assuming win rate as the dependent variable since you seem to hold that stat in such high regard, a quick multiple regression analysis with all the items would put Guinsoo so far past 0.05 that it wouldn't even be funny.

Numbers DO lie. Popular meta synergies between 2 items OFTEN cloud the correct builds. Guinsoo's Xin is a monster than can 1v5 a team.

First you claim stats don't lie, then you claim they do? Do you even hear yourself? You have so utterly convinced yourself of Guinsoo being OP on Xin that you've resorted to talking out of your ass. The item with less damage, less upfront attack speed, no CDR, no movement speed, no HP, and no mana can 1v5 teams? Lol. Please, by all means, send me literally any clip or link from anyone in a ranked game of a decent level (say, Plat or above) where a Xin Zhao with his Jungle Item and Guinsoo's 1v5s and comes out on top.

Triforce rush might Isolate and kill one person, but then he's dead too. He trades.

Lol, and once again the stats prove you're talking out of your ass. The mere fact that Xin Zhao's average KDA Ratio (with Triforce being in the vast, VAST majority of builds) is 2.4 proves that you just lied.

He can only even proc Triforce twice per round of cooldowns. NOT THE BEST USER.

Nope, even the most basic Xin Zhao players AT MINIMUM procs it twice per rotation. Literally pressing EQW practically guarantees two Triforce procs because of the way Xin Zhao's ability cast times work. Xin Zhao players can easily proc Triforce thrice with just a tiny bit of waiting, and four times in one rotation if they want to burn Ult. And with the 30% CDR from Warrior + Triforce, the entire rotation is ready to go again in 3.5 seconds.

The entire point is irrelevant anyway, because literally just two procs is nearly always enough to kill the target when combined with Xin Zhao's kit. Meanwhile, basic math shows that it takes about six auto-attacks on an already fully-stacked Guinsoo to even match the damage of just two Triforce Procs.

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

You're conveniently leaving out several things about the new Guinsoo's -It increases AD/AP by a % per stack. That's not mentioned. -The stacks to maximize Guinsoo's was reduced from 8 to 6 in 6.9 -It gives up to 48% attack speed, where the old Guinsoos only gave 25%.

And when you consider the AD/AP stacking by ITSELF, it puts both the On hit damage AND the Base stats higher than the old Guinsoo's. The attack speed increase is a pure buff as well.

This is why not only a few select champs build Guinsoo's anymore. It's been made into a stat buffer. up to 15% boost to AD and AP WELL makes up for any nerfs, and is useable on ANY on hit champion.

-Xin can stack a Guinsoo's in 1 second. Gated?

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you obviously like to boast/brag. The sample size of the discussion is the users who actually use Guinsoo's, not the total community. The reason is what you're trying to ask: Is the 60.37% win rate with Guinsoo's a statistically significant number?

There is no question in STATISTICS that you can hypothesize that would incorporate total Xin sample size into the question of performance. There may be a PROBABILITY question regarding that.

The question you are asking is, does win rate correlate with useage rate. There is no way in the world that would ever create any results not riddled with heteroscedasticity and autocorrelation.

P.S. I wrote my doctorate thesis on predicting how the Trans Pacific Partnership would affect Farm owner net worth per acre of production using NAFTA as a predictive model, adjusted for regional models of what member consumers purchase within the agreement.

Numbers when taken at stock DO lie. Everyone can find an independent result and create a biased argument around it. But..... game theory doesn't ever back up a universe of possibilities were the Nash Equilibrium is also the BEST outcome. When viewed in that lens, Steraks, Triforce.... they are the Nash Equilibriums. The "Better" results that occur when two or more variables come to the outcome that creates the greatest utility for all, rather than one person.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 13, 20181 votes

-It increases AD/AP by a % per stack. That's not mentioned.

I didn't mention giving AD/AP by a % each stack because old Guinsoo used to add FLAT damage and AP instead.

Fully Stacked New Guinsoo Damage: 25 AD + 15% Bonus AD + 10 (+10% bonus AD)(+10% AP) Fully Stacked Old Guinsoo: 35 AD + 24 damage + 20 (+15 % bonus AD)(+7.5% AP)

That's a 44 damage (+5% bonus AD) difference per auto-attack that the 15% bonus AD on new Guinsoo's has to match.

Which means it takes 440 bonus AD for the new fully stacked Guinsoo to match the old fully stacked Guinsoo.

-The stacks to maximize Guinsoo's was reduced from 8 to 6 in 6.9

Yes I know. What's your point? It takes four auto-attacks on Xin Zhao to stack a Guinsoo in both cases. Literally irrelevant to the discussion.

-It gives up to 48% attack speed, where the old Guinsoos only gave 25%.

Old Guinsoo gave 8% x 8 stacks = 64% attack speed. STOP LYING.

And when you consider the AD/AP stacking by ITSELF, it puts both the On hit damage AND the Base stats higher than the old Guinsoo's. The attack speed increase is a pure buff as well.

Lol, you can't just claim this bullshit without doing the math first, which you obviously didn't do.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you obviously like to boast/brag. The sample size of the discussion is the users who actually use Guinsoo's, not the total community. The reason is what you're trying to ask: Is the 60.37% win rate with Guinsoo's a statistically significant number?

HA! You're saying I like to brag? You're the one using terms that you have repeatedly shown you know nothing of. "The sample is users who actually use Guinsoo"? If so, then you've literally fully biased your "study" by limiting it to Guinsoo users, and any panelist worth their salt would have sent you packing. Seriously, do you even understand what it is you're suggesting? To put it in terms you should be able to understand, you want to find the effect of buying Guinsoo when all the datapoints are already Guinsoo buyers. That's like looking for a needle in a needle stack, then being surprised that you find... gasp, a needle!

And again you prove your ignorance. You're trying to suggest that "Is the 60.37% win rate with Guinsoo's a statistically significant number?" is the question. Really, dude, really? Looking for the statistical significance of the DEPENDENT variable instead of the INDEPENDENT variable??

So not only do you want to completely bias the regression model to only Guinsoo users instead of trying to find it's actual effect compared to other items, you also want to look for the significance of the dependent variable, instead of the independent . HAHAHAHAHA!

There is no question in STATISTICS that you can hypothesize that would incorporate total Xin sample size into the question of performance. There may be a PROBABILITY question regarding that.

Don't talk about statistics and probability when you've proven over and over again that you don't even know the very basics and conventions of statistical analysis.

The question you are asking is, does win rate correlate with useage rate. There is no way in the world that would ever create any results not riddled with heteroscedasticity and autocorrelation.

Jesus Christ, with the way you seem to think those two are such huge problems, it's like you've never even heard of an NW or a GLS. Neither of those two are non-compensatable, and in fact are par for the course in Econometrics

P.S. I wrote my doctorate thesis on predicting how the Trans Pacific Partnership would affect Farm owner net worth per acre of production using NAFTA as a predictive model, adjusted for regional models of what member consumers purchase within the agreement.

Lol, doctorate thesis huh? You sure you wanna be lying about that too? With the way you just tried to butcher statistical analysis, I doubt you've even passed undergrad yet.

Numbers when taken at stock DO lie. Everyone can find an independent result and create a biased argument around it.

Which is what you tried to do, btw. Using the dependent variable of win rate, I postulated a viable regression model to find the effect of Guinsoo on it. You should have had no problem with it since by your own argument, Guinsoo has a high win rate. You're the one who wanted to bias it around a sample size of ONLY Guinsoo users, which skews that data and makes no goddamn sense.

But..... game theory doesn't ever back up a universe of possibilities were the Nash Equilibrium is also the BEST outcome. When viewed in that lens, Steraks, Triforce.... they are the Nash Equilibriums. The "Better" results that occur when two or more variables come to the outcome that creates the greatest utility for all, rather than one person.

See, this is the one good argument from you I've heard so far. It's indeed completely possible that Triforce Sterak's is the Nash Equilibrium point for Xin Zhao, but not necessarily the best. Kudos to you on this. I'd have loved if you just sticked to this instead of trying your hand at statistics.

But still, you can't just claim that the nash equilibrium for Xin Zhao even exists because by principle, that assumes League is a non-cooperative game, which it isn't. It's a cooperative game, and while cooperative games can be viewed in non-cooperative game theory, that's only provided that sufficient assumptions are made to encompass all the possible strategies available to players.

So it's either A) abandon your desire to use only guinsoo users as the sample, in which case the statistics will show that when lined up with the correct sample size, Guinsoo is insignificant, or B) You end up contradicting yourself and giving up the one good argument you have.

Nausicäa Oct 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I think the comparison between and isn't really fair. Simply reducing it to "it gives you more damage" makes almost every item fit into that category. The difference between them is that Duskblade is very controlled compared to Deathfire. You only get the extra damage once per fight unless you have invisibility, in which case you can get it twice or rarely thrice. But usually it's just one single amplified hit, capping at 150 damage on level 18. Deathfire Grasp does something similar, but it deals more upfront damage and also amplifies your entire spell rotation by 20% assuming you deal magic damage. It was originally intended as tank busting item in which cases that would make sense since they can take it, squishies can't. Not to mention that the initial damage is in %max health, making itemization against it a bit more difficult.

Basically, they both share a strong hit at the start of your combo. But that's where the similarities end.

What really happened is that Deathfire Grasp was meant for tank busting but got replaced by Liandry's. So it got used for amplifying burst instead. Burst mages had to be nerfed which resulted in them becoming entirely dependent on it to have enough damage in their rotation. Duskblade has some of those issues, but way less extreme.

Uhh what? UNIQUE: Deals 15% of the target champion's maximum health in magic damage and increases all subsequent magic damage taken by the target by 20% for 4 seconds (750 range)** (90 second cooldown).**

So Duskblade is once per fight but a 90 sec CD Deathfire isnt once per fight? makes sense.

Zeppelins circusOct 11, 20181 votes

DFG was originally ruined king for AP.

Duskblade is essentially sword of the divine now.

The EcdysiastOct 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zeppelins circus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JA87l60F,comment-id=000000020002,timestamp=2018-10-11T04:45:25.431+0000)

DFG was originally ruined king for AP.

Duskblade is essentially sword of the divine now.

That's not right. Liandry's has always been ruined king for AP. And existed alongside DFG in that state.

Tomoe GozenOct 11, 20181 votes

DFT gave you 4 seconds of grace to unload all your magic damage into the target. So the initial % max HP damage and then free-for-all spell rotation under the undeniable CC, classifies as "not once per fight" but still a single target. That being said, magic damage amp for you and your allies meant that predominantly magic damage comps could succeed more than a mixed comp of champs.

IllabetheOct 12, 20181 votes

Duskblade is not once per fight. It's once per unseen. There's a difference.

Khazix can proc it as many times as he can R. Talon can proc it each time he climbs over a wall or R's. Zed can proc it each time he creates a Shadow clone (including R) Shaco can proc it both every time he Decieves and each time he R's. Rengar can proc it muliple times if you fight him near a bush you don't have warded, as well as R Pyke can proc it each time he W's, or uses R through terrain. Kayn can use it both when he emerges from a wall, and after he exits an Infest. MasterYi can proc it every time he Alpha strikes (which also guarantees the auto attack that procs it)

And..... any other champ can use it when fighting through bushes/terrain multiple times, including adcs. (Ezreal's Q can proc it several times over an unwarded wall without actually entering combat range.

iDarkWindOct 12, 20181 votes

So much false information spreeding here. Know your facts before posting crap like you just did. You have to be unseen by at least one second, most of what you said in your post do not work at all.

Khazix - Everything you said is right Talon - He has to wait one second before reactivating his ultimate, and that's the only way he can use 2 times in the team fight Zed - Not even close, you have no fvcking idea what you're talking about, if it worked like that he would be so broken. He only can use it once when he comes to the teamfight. He can't re-use it in any way, neither with his untargability of his R because it only lasts 0.75seconds and not a full 1 second to reactivate Duskblade. Shaco - Right Rengar -Technically he can do it like you said, but that would be beyond dumb because the enemy would just walk away and run from him because he had wait 1second between each attack, and overall he would just do less damage actually over the time. Pyke - Only his W resets it. "Uses R through terratin"? What the fck? He can't even do that LOL Kayn - If he comes from the wall without any one having vision on him, of course he can, why wouldn't he? But he can't use it to reset tought. But, yes his R does reset it if he holds for at least 1 second inside of the victim. MasterYi - No he can't. His alpha strike even if used on max enemy number, he won't still be unseen for a full second.

The situations you used as argument to prove your point, almost all of them make no sense at all.

The EcdysiastOct 10, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I think the comparison between and isn't really fair. Simply reducing it to "it gives you more damage" makes almost every item fit into that category. The difference between them is that Duskblade is very controlled compared to Deathfire. You only get the extra damage once per fight unless you have invisibility, in which case you can get it twice or rarely thrice. But usually it's just one single amplified hit, capping at 150 damage on level 18. Deathfire Grasp does something similar, but it deals more upfront damage and also amplifies your entire spell rotation by 20% assuming you deal magic damage. It was originally intended as tank busting item in which cases that would make sense since they can take it, squishies can't. Not to mention that the initial damage is in %max health, making itemization against it a bit more difficult.

Basically, they both share a strong hit at the start of your combo. But that's where the similarities end.

What really happened is that Deathfire Grasp was meant for tank busting but got replaced by Liandry's. So it got used for amplifying burst instead. Burst mages had to be nerfed which resulted in them becoming entirely dependent on it to have enough damage in their rotation. Duskblade has some of those issues, but way less extreme.

Duskblade isn't more controlled than Deathfire. Being an active, single-target effect meant you couldn't apply that extra damage to multiple targets in one fight. Conversely, Duskblade only requires you become unseen, letting some champions abuse it more-- and as a result making it so they require nerfs that are the fault of the item, not their kits.

And it was not replaced by Liandry's. Liandry's had existed already, with the same effect it always has had. So that explanation doesn't fit.

CronofugeOct 10, 201819 votes

I thought cloak got removed because it was a garbage item that felt terrible to buy. It was literally a stepping stone to infinity edge, if you EVER had the gold to get the 3 components but not finish IE it was bad.

Spank the FoxOct 10, 201818 votes

Duskblade should be complained about the utility, not the damage. Duskblade damage only caps to 150 now.

The fact it possesses a crippling slow and Blackout + ward detection regardless of cooldown (courtesy of buff bar) is what makes the item a bit too good.

Can’t say much about the rest because WotA was truly trash on everyone, Gunblade can be utilized for hybrid champions if it wasn’t so expensive. Just wished we didn’t have a net loss of items throughout the seasons. We need more variety.

GigglesOOct 10, 20183 votes

Can’t say much about the rest because WotA was truly trash on everyone,

Vladimir ?

kargishOct 10, 20183 votes

I used to run double WotA with a friend as Vladimir Swain since you could get the benefit of your own and the aura it provided.

Death RexOct 10, 20185 votes

Can’t say much about the rest because WotA was truly trash on everyone,

Mordekaiser ?

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 10, 201817 votes

Crit cloak felt terrible and was used in one last item after slowly being removed from others.

There's also a major difference between "The first crit you do early game deals 140% damage" vs. "Every now and again you could win fights by stringing two back-to-back 200% crits in the middle of a fight".

xxxDogmanxxxOct 11, 20182 votes

Tryndamere in a nutshell xD

ThilmerOct 10, 20186 votes

This is not bad ítem design.

This is clear bias in favor of AD champions and AD ítems.

Change my mind.

Who Fed RuOct 10, 20182 votes

Not as long as mages have item 3157 . What does a shit lot of damage mean if you can't apply it?

Weiss GuertenaOct 10, 201812 votes

Yeah, item 3139 those poor AD champions item 3812 not having a single item item 3026 that provides both offensive stats item 3156 and doubles as a potent defensive tool.

Who Fed RuOct 10, 20182 votes

And mages don't have them?

item 3102 is all you need against Assassins and divers. item 3157 is also a great counter against many champions and team comps. Else you have item 3165 for a great second item powerspike.

Both items aren't that expensive and can easily be build as second (or even first in some situations) item, while you rarely see any AD champ rushing one of the items above, and if they do they lose damage. Tell me, when was the last time you saw some AD finishing one of the above items before his 3rd or 4th item?

AD has much less diversity in their early items than AP, even if it seems like they have a lot of it, they don't really have.

CryoThornOct 10, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JA87l60F,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-10T15:43:10.027+0000)

And mages don't have them?

is all you need against Assassins and divers. is also a great counter against many champions and team comps. Else you have for a great second item powerspike.

Both items aren't that expensive and can easily be build as second (or even first in some situations) item, while you rarely see any AD champ rushing one of the items above, and if they do they lose damage. Tell me, when was the last time you saw some AD finishing one of the above items before his 3rd or 4th item?

AD has much less diversity in their early items than AP, even if it seems like they have a lot of it, they don't really have.

Banshee's and Zhonyas versus Guardian Angel (Actually better than Zhonyas, because you essentially get a free Zilean Ult, on top of having the stopwatch component), Mercurial Scimitar (Free Cleanse?), Edge of Night (AD Banshees), Maw of Malmortius (this item's shield plus it's MR can be super crippling to play against)

Zhonyas has an extremely high skill floor to make the most use of it, in some cases (Zed) if you pop it too early, his ult doesn't go on cooldown, or he has time to position his shadows to hit you with everything when you come out of stasis.

Banshees is our only good defensive item, and both it and Zhonyas don't have nearly the amount of offensive payoff that Maw, GA, or Edge of Night gives. Zhonyas has 75 AP, and 10% CDR, and Banshees has 70 AP and 10% CDR. Champions who are forced to buy these have their offensive potential gutted in exchange for situational safety.

As for your comment on Morellonomicon, let's talk about a couple champions that usually benefit from Magic Pen but avoid building this item because of it's shit stats. Zyra only builds the Oblivion Orb, after the Liandries rework she's been in a very shifty spot, which led to her E root buff. has lower than Average AP Ratios, along with Zyra. He used to build Liandries because of his passive, the percentage current health burn that used to be on it, as well as the Magic Penetration. Brand and Zyra have early game focused kits frontloaded with High base damage. Yet Liandries and other AP items only come 20 damage short prior to the recent Liandries buff), they are also offering other benefits such as extra damage, movement speed, or AP increases, while some of them are just cheaper, or the same price. Morello is a situational item that is used primarily for Grievous Wounds, which by the way, AD Champions can get with a 800 Gold purchase item 3123 . So, go on and tell me that Morello is a powerspike item, because it's not that good.

Diversity in early items than AP? You must be talking about Crit champions, because when you say AD, it can mean Bruisers, Assassins, or ADC's.

I can agree with it from a Crit standpoint, but Bruisers and Assassins have a lot of versatility, with item 3134 building into 3 different items, and item 3071 item 3078 and item 3025 being great first items for Bruisers , item 1059 building into item 3812 item 3072 item 3153

Mages First Items are usually one of these Four : item 3027 item 3285 item 3003 item 3030 , and Only 1 and 2 on that list are viable starts. GLP used to be built on Aurelion Sol but now you just see ROA into Rylai's.

If you paid attention on the forms you'd see that AP itemization has been complained about for a while, the AP item reworks that we've had has actually removed diversity. item 1058 used to build into SO many items. Let's list them item 3285 item 3003 item 3157 item 3116 item 3089 item 3128

But go on, AD Champions don't have favoritism towards their items?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 10, 20186 votes

I think I learned different lessons than you did from some of these.

item 3128 - lesson here was mages shouldn't have access to this kind of burst because it means that only one kind of mage is viable. Duskblade is for assassins and has nothing to do with mages.

Will of the Ancients - Again, lesson was that mages with spell vamp were too powerful because of the amount of healing they could get with long range burst. Gunblade fixes that problem by restricting itself to champs that can take advantage of the AD and AP. It's fine on Katarina and Akali.

Okay, I have no defense for stormrazer, though. Stormrazer is kinda bogus; I don't blame them for trying, but it caused more problems than it solved, imo, and I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

Gramps69Oct 11, 20181 votes

If Duskblade is only meant for assassins, why is MF building it?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 11, 20181 votes

Because MF builds like an assassin.

If you want my personal opinion, MF is broken and desperately needs work that will force her to build more sensibly for a marksman. But her current effective builds all rush lethality. That's not an argument for Duskblade being good on marksmen, that's an argument for MF being broken.

The EcdysiastOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because MF builds like an assassin.

If you want my personal opinion, MF is broken and desperately needs work that will force her to build more sensibly for a marksman. But her current effective builds all rush lethality. That's not an argument for Duskblade being good on marksmen, that's an argument for MF being broken.

The only way to do that would be to force her to build crit to be effective, which they did make a change towards with how her Q crits. Making Duskblade melee-only would make much more sense thematically for the item while also preventing further abuse of it by champions who shouldn't be able to use it.

I also think that the passive should be changed from "unseen" to "cloaked", so people without cloaks can't abuse it either.

Daddy AntsOct 10, 20185 votes

Only champion who really used WoTA was Vladimir

Zane ZephyrOct 10, 201811 votes

Mordekaiser

AlzonOct 10, 20183 votes

Rumble

LeetriOct 10, 20184 votes

Only Vlad used it because it was garbage on everyone else because Vlad existed. If WotA was viable on basically anyone else (except maybe Rumble) the item was broken on Vlad.

ForFoxSakesOct 10, 20185 votes

Cloak was removed bc there was so few items that built out of it, I think just the IE? IE got reworked and the cloak wasnt even needed since it provided no crit now

Duskblade is diff too since it doesnt amp up the damage of your other abilities, but is more like an on hit bonus damage

Spooky SkeletonOct 12, 20183 votes

item 3124 is the biggest joke in the game. It will NEVER be balanced with it's "phantom on hit" bullshit. I honestly dont know why it's still in the game. Few champs build it, but those that do become obsenely unbalanced because of it. ( Kaisa melting anything from a 5k hp tank to a squishy in a matter of seconds, MasterYi basically being untargettable and doing 60-80% true damage) for example.

I Run ManOct 18, 20181 votes

I'm a Kayle main and I just want it to be reverted.

DearPearOct 11, 20181 votes

According to the wikia (on WotA) :

This item was removed because it was very rarely purchased on most AP champions, since it was better to build other raw AP items to try to burst down an enemy as fast as possible and they didn't had time to sustain. In addition, most AP champions have AoE damage, meaning the sustain was too small to make this item worth purchasing. On the very few champions it was purchased, it was known to cause balancing issues. In particular, VladimirSquare Vladimir forced this item to be balanced around his very existence, since he had WotA as his core item and could abuse it very well.

The EcdysiastOct 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

According to the wikia (on WotA) :

Which is pretty much exactly the same as Gunblade, as it's only bought on Akali and Katarina and balanced entirely around them. The only two other champions who can purchase it reliably, Jax and Kayle, rarely do so. Even others who might be able to, such as Kai'sa, Diana, and Ezreal, never do.

So I'll edit it, as my reasoning isn't entirely correct. But the similarity still stands.