New ashe rework looks homogenizing.

Quepha·Apr 30, 2015·4 votes·1,723 views

Riot has spoken a lot about how they like to hold onto the special parts of a champion to keep them unique, but the new ashe rework looks like it's reducing her unique attributes to make her behave like other marksmen.

she's getting some damage steroids, her volley is being made more reliable, and her permaslow is moving to her passive while she gets a temporary slow boost steroid on Q. i know those increases to her damage are going to come at an overall cost to her utility. a passive auto attack slow existed on old sejuani, and even though she was a melee champion riot had to tone it down to a laughably tiny amount to keep it balanced. given that ashe has one of the larger ranges of most adcs, and a great range and solid area of effect on her volley, her passive will probably be just as (un-)impactful.

the design for new ashe seems to be based on the opinions of people who enjoy playing adcs like jinx, kog'maw, or twitch when it should have been based on the opinions of people who enjoy playing ashe.

at least her ult didn't change, but ashe is more than just her ult.

28 Comments

KidSpectreApr 30, 20157 votes

I don't get how giving her a real Q and a functional passive is homogenizing.

ZmuecatApr 30, 20151 votes

It's different, therefore it's terrible. I think that's what the OP is saying if you boil his argument down.

QuephaApr 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's different, therefore it's terrible. I think that's what the OP is saying if you boil his argument down.

literally the opposite of what i said.

DrCyanideMay 6, 20153 votes

Homogenized?

They play up her being the "kite you to death" champion by removing the slowing ability and making it a passive.
They play up her "long range scouting" (something only her and Quinn have in the ADC lineup) by making it global range and usable twice in quick succession, which further differentiates it from Quinn.
They make her the one ADC that does not have crit chance (at least, not in the conventional sense).
They change her Volley so it behaves less like Grave's Buckshot than it currently is.

How exactly is that homogenized?

You can argue that you don't like it, or that you think it's bad, or that it changes Ashe too much. I'm ok with those arguments. I just can't for the life of me see the homogenized argument.

masterdragon481Apr 30, 20152 votes

First of all, I'd like to point out that Ashe has to look a little bit more like the other marksmen, because Live Ashe currently can't compete at all (this is why we never see her ever at all).

I could see her passive slow getting tuned down a bit, because it definitely is VERY powerful at the moment. That being said, it is more justifiable on her because she is a squishy champion that, once closed upon, is likely to die. This is VERY different from the tanks like Sejuani and Skarner who had their permaslow abilities removed.

Continuing from there, they have preserved Ashe's E as a non-combat ability. Therefore, she only has 3 as opposed to the usual 4 that adc's have. Now her passive could be considered that 4th ability, but that is debatable for a number of reasons.

I don't think this rework has taken Ashe too far from what she is currently. Her ability to slow opponents is still intact. Her ability to scout the map has been improved. Her ultimate is intact, as you mentioned. Her W fills the exact same role. She still lacks any form of mobility and doesn't have a real escape of any kind. The biggest change she is receiving is her Q (of course) and she needs an ability like this to be able to even lane against other adc's. I don't think its reduced her unique attributes at all.

VegetableFoeMay 4, 20152 votes

The highest winrate ADC and second highest winrate champion in the game can't compete at all. Aight.

masterdragon481May 6, 20153 votes

Just as a heads up, if you are going to use sarcasm to prove a point, you would do well to get your facts straight. It's incredibly difficult to catch your meaning when your facts are wrong.

Ashe is the 3rd highest win rate ADC, and the 30th highest win rate in the game. I don't know where you got your information, but I got mine off the monthly statistics from op.gg. If you use weekly or daily, you don't have NEARLY enough information to make even close to an accurate assessment.

Secondly, and even more importantly, Ashe sits at 62nd for how often the champion is picked. This puts 6 ADC's under her. More importantly I would like to emphasize the extreme difference is how often she is played (6.18%) with how often the most popular ADC, Jinx, is played (35.24%). In fact, ADC's make up 5 of the top 10 picked champions in the last month of League and Ashe isn't even close to that list.

So not only is Ashe not the highest win rate ADC or second highest win rate champion in the game, but it is likely that only a small number of VERY expert people are playing her which causes that win rate to be inflated past where her power level actually lies. In reality her power level and overall effectiveness is far worse than the majority of the other carries in the game.

But this whole point is getting a little bit off topic; the OP was stating that Ashe's new kit was homogenizing and she wasn't going to feel like Ashe after it was over. I don't really think this will be the case.

Sir YamazukiMay 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just as a heads up, if you are going to use sarcasm to prove a point, you would do well to get your facts straight. It's incredibly difficult to catch your meaning when your facts are wrong.

Ashe is the 3rd highest win rate ADC, and the 30th highest win rate in the game. I don't know where you got your information, but I got mine off the monthly statistics from op.gg. If you use weekly or daily, you don't have NEARLY enough information to make even close to an accurate assessment.

Secondly, and even more importantly, Ashe sits at 62nd for how often the champion is picked. This puts 6 ADC's under her. More importantly I would like to emphasize the extreme difference is how often she is played (6.18%) with how often the most popular ADC, Jinx, is played (35.24%). In fact, ADC's make up 5 of the top 10 picked champions in the last month of League and Ashe isn't even close to that list.

So not only is Ashe not the highest win rate ADC or second highest win rate champion in the game, but it is likely that only a small number of VERY expert people are playing her which causes that win rate to be inflated past where her power level actually lies. In reality her power level and overall effectiveness is far worse than the majority of the other carries in the game.

But this whole point is getting a little bit off topic; the OP was stating that Ashe's new kit was homogenizing and she wasn't going to feel like Ashe after it was over. I don't really think this will be the case.

Plat+ her win rate is almost 56%. Her win rate is only ever under 50% due to Bronze/Silver players not playing her well. Her win rate even with those not experienced with her in plat+ is still also well over 50%. She wins over 50% against every adc.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe

So, yes, Ashe can compete with other adcs when played properly. Historically her win rate has pretty much always been over 50% regardless of who's strong.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

That is a better data because this guy "Lord Yamazuki" uses champion.gg not lolking, so. yes, Ashe can compete with other adc but she don't have a "real" passive and his Q don't offer nothing "extra" on the gameplay. So the rework is a good way to fix her.

masterdragon481May 6, 20151 votes

This doesn't say over what course of time this is occurring. I would venture to guess that its by patch, and if so, not as long a period of time as I would like.

Even if the time weren't an issue, her play rate is still incredibly low. This means that only a very select few people play her or she fills a very small niche and, as a result, her win rate is higher. It doesn't necessarily mean she competes with other adc's.

For example, let us suppose that there are 26 champions (a-z) and that champion Y is weaker than the rest of the champions. Champion Y, however, has the unique property of beating champion Z every time. So, while in most cases there would never be a reason to pick champion Y, which you do pick it (in the case of champion Z being on the enemy team) champion Y's win rate would be 100% without being a strong champion. Obviously League of Legends doesn't work to this extreme (and I don't really think Ashe counters anything particularly strongly), but hopefully this example illustrates that a champion could have a higher win rate despite not actually being a balanced champion.

Win rate also doesn't mean everything; there are a vast number of factors that affect win rates; to the point that it isn't reliable on its own as evidence of a balanced champion.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

Ashe is the 3rd highest win rate ADC, and the 30th highest win rate in the game.

You are wrong, apparently YOU uses lolking data (lolking data is not accuracy because LAN/LAS, TURKEY, OCE Servers are not take into consideration also don't differ if Ashe is playing adc or another rol is simply data of Ashe)

Use champion.gg (they consider ALL Servers in plat+, only adc Ashe playing games) to a real data (gold and low elo players does'tn matter in this kind of data because much of them don't play Ashe in a good way).

If you use lolking your data are in the most of the time wrong because are not "detailed data"... champion.gg is the best page to consider win/ban/pick ratio...

masterdragon481May 6, 20151 votes

I actually used op.gg; NOT lolking. In fact, upon closer inspection of what champion.gg is saying, it is actually in line with what op.gg is saying; the difference is on op.gg im looking at Ashe's stats over the course of the last month; not 6 days.

Champion.gg says that Ashe rose 2 spots in the last 6 days to become the highest win rate ADC. This is perfectly in line with op.gg saying; that over the last month Ashe has averaged 3rd best. I wouldn't expect a small bubble to appear on a monthly statistic and information over the course of 6 days is a bubble when you compare it to the month long statistic.

As for the validity of the information on Champion.gg

Firstly, if it collects data every patch, that means that it was been collecting data for 6 days, roughly two weeks at a max. As I implied above, this amount of time is hardly sufficient to determine any sort of trend; look at the data for the past month and maybe you get some thing reliable enough to make some decisions about.

Second, I think looking at only the information from Plat+ is a mistake. This accounts for a VERY small amount of the player population and I think this gives a very skewed perception of a champion's balance. If you look at udyr's ban rate, for example, it might be higher on a night Trick2g is streaming because people don't want to play against Trick playing the champion. The same could be applied to various other streamers/champions. This will result in inaccurate data; just like including lower tier players would.

Finally, I would need an explanation of how champion.gg determines if champions are played in certain roles. Because as far as I can tell, it is guessing or assuming; and that makes it no better than lolking OR op.gg in that sense.

That being said, I think there are a number of factors that go into reasons for the statistics we observe and understanding those reasons are how we determine a champions relative strength. For example, if Ashe is only being played as a counter to a specific strategy (which would explain her low pick rate, high win rate), then she isn't well balanced or in a good place despite her win rate. More has to be taken into account.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

Finally, I would need an explanation of how champion.gg determines if champions are played in certain roles. Because as far as I can tell, it is guessing or assuming; and that makes it no better than lolking OR op.gg in that sense.

They used position sensors over the first 20 minutes on each game, so the position that the champ have in a more "red colour" in the position sensor, is the position that the player has playing in that game, some pics of how look every rol:

top: http://cdn.leagueofgraphs.com/img/heatmaps/1430766003824/positions/3/58.small.jpg

mid: http://cdn.leagueofgraphs.com/img/heatmaps/1430766003824/kills/3/13.small.jpg

bot: http://cdn.leagueofgraphs.com/img/heatmaps/1430766003824/positions/3/104.small.jpg

jungle: http://cdn.leagueofgraphs.com/img/heatmaps/1430766003824/positions/3/79.small.jpg

lolking don't do that... You play Ashe on every rol and every elo and they only count win/ban/pick rate...

masterdragon481May 6, 20152 votes

That is actually a good idea and something they should be proud to state that they do. Its a good idea.

My other concerns and points still stand, however. The biggest problem to me is the time frame over which the data is collected.

In any case, thanks for clarifying that.

Edit: I just realized this while looking over the whole post and you're right, op.gg also uses just NA. While this isn't really ideal either, I still maintain that looking at the champions health over a longer period of time is more beneficial.

My mistake for not realizing the region thing about op.gg sooner. So while champion.gg takes that advantage over op.gg, I still think what I'm getting from op.gg is better data.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

How frequently is data updated? (time frame)

Data is updated as soon as possible whenever a new patch is released (usually within 3 days). Towards the end of a patch, data is updated less frequently--Champion.gg has over 300gb of champion data, so processing can take around 15 hours.

What advantage does Champion.gg have over any other statistic sites?

Most other LoL statistic websites are lacking in three areas.

First, data doesn't necessarily reflect a champion's true performance if their play in certain roles isn't taken into account - this is something Champion.gg is very well equipped for; any champion can be selected in their played role to get tailored statistics.

Second, many statistical websites present their data over the past month/week/day. This gives an inaccurate view of the champion on the current patch. This is because the sample size can cover more than the current patch or be too small (in the case of a day). Champion.gg bases all data off the current patch .

Third, many statistic websites don't show the win rates when a champion is (potentially) played at their best - Champion.gg provides win rates for the best builds, masteries, runes, summoners and skill order.

So this can disperse some on your "concerns" I think...

masterdragon481May 6, 20151 votes

The frequency of the data is exactly what my problem with Champion.gg is.

Ryze is sitting at the lowest win rate. He should be buffed, right? No! He is a completely different champion as of patch 5.8 and can't be judged after only 6 days of play with him. People need to figure out how his kit works, what to build on him, etc. Then his win rate will go up. But once people start playing Ryze well, people will start to learn how to play against him, and his win rate will fall again. While this is all just a theory, it demonstrates the process that each and every champion goes through.

This process takes a LOT more time than the time over which champion.gg gives statistics for. Champion.gg only takes, at a maximum, about 2 weeks worth of data. That isn't enough time to determine a champion's relative power level, you need to look at data over a longer period. The most Champion.gg can do is compare patch to patch; which I don't really think gives a good enough picture.

And as we are discussing in another post, I don't think the concept of using plat+ is particularly accurate.

So no, none of my concerns have been dispersed by this information.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

Ryze is sitting at the lowest win rate. He should be buffed, right? No! He is a completely different champion as of patch 5.8 and can't be judged after only 6 days of play with him. People need to figure out how his kit works, what to build on him, etc. Then his win rate will go up. But once people start playing Ryze well, people will start to learn how to play against him, and his win rate will fall again. While this is all just a theory, it demonstrates the process that each and every champion goes through.

Ryze is anthor kind of discusiion... Its a recently reworked champ, so obviusly he need some time to collect more precise info.

So no, none of my concerns have been dispersed by this information.

Well at least I try to do, goof luck with that.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

Second, I think looking at only the information from Plat+ is a mistake. This accounts for a VERY small amount of the player population and I think this gives a very skewed perception of a champion's balance.

Nope, is not a mistake... Actuallu in Plat+ are a huuuuge amount of playes (I personally have 3 accounts 2 plats and 1 diamond, and plays 3 games on each account at day, and never play with/vs the same people, and you forgot that they made this to all servers (lolking not).

If you look at udyr's ban rate, for example, it might be higher on a night Trick2g is streaming because people don't want to play against Trick playing the champion. The same could be applied to various other streamers/champions. This will result in inaccurate data; just like including lower tier players would.

Trick2g? Idk who is that I suppose is a Udyr main... well that part is "TRASH" nobody ban Udyr because one men (that is a good udyr) are streaming... And if that happen, only in a few games or the NA server (i suppose that he play on NA) they banned, because not all people known that he streaming or know who is. (the same to other streaming). so no, this NOT result iinto inaccurate data, I repeat plat+ is a huuuge amount of people, and the majority know how build his champs, that is the thing that really matter here.

masterdragon481May 6, 20151 votes

Plat+ is approximately 10% of the total LOL population. That is hardly a large number of people in comparison to the number of people it doesn't include.

Also, the fact that you have 3 accounts in this area further proves my point about the information being skewed and not as reliable. You are artificially raising the statistics of champions by making your influence count more. It's like getting 3 votes instead of 1. You aren't adding any new data because you are the same player. Therefore I don't think taking only plat+ is getting an accurate assessment. in fact, your huge number of players could actually be much smaller, if everyone is plat+ is like you, then your huge number of players is actually only 1/3 the size.

The more I think about it, the more unreliable taking only plat + becomes.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

You aren't adding any new data because you are the same player.

I have different experiences in each account, and every game is different, I use different champs too (Sejuani, Skarner, Janna and Braum in the most of the cases on my 3 accounts but the difference is minimal) but I add new data, a bunch of data, because I are "confirm" the data of my champs, (My Skarner and Sejuani are in the top 1000 of lolskill in 2 accounts so this reinfrom that data) the kdA are different in the 3 accounts too.

If champ.gg put all the elos, they can't afford that because is a huuuuge amount of data and much of that data useless (bronze, silver, and the vas majority of gold don't grand nothing useful in this kind of data) so I support that they uses only Plat+ because not only optimize their resources, at the time <avoid> vrings useless data like (bronze, silver and gold elos) so I don't see any problem in that.

masterdragon481May 6, 20151 votes

You have different experiences on your different accounts, it doesn't mean every player with multiple accounts does. Also, your strengths and weakness as a player still get over represented in this case. If you as a player are weak against assassin type champions, then you might inflate the win rate of assassins MORE than it should be, simply because you are losing to them on 3 accounts as opposed to just one. Multiple accounts owned by the same person are going to skew data.

I understand your argument about the lower elos, though I think the cost of excluding that large a number of players is actually causing more harm than help. Granted, I don't think bronze should be included, but I don't think the sample size of just plat+ is large enough to accurately draw conclusions from.

VenowolfMay 6, 20151 votes

plat+ of all the 10 servers right not only NA is a huuuge amount of people dude, they took 15 hours to update the data so 15 hours of processing data is a abysmal amount of data and this happen only with plat+.

f you as a player are weak against assassin type champions, then you might inflate the win rate of assassins MORE than it should be, simply because you are losing to them on 3 accounts as opposed to just one. Multiple accounts owned by the same person are going to skew data.

You forgot a huuuuge detail, in every game I have another 4 teammates that can cover my weaknesess so I don't gonna lose all the games, much of my games I go carried by others players because I'm play "utility" champs, so others make the dmg for me. So no skew data, one same person not change much in one game...

UberAffeApr 30, 20151 votes

the slow gets up to about 65% with her q active, that is a very relevant slow

HuudiApr 30, 20151 votes

I really disagree, i think this is a pretty original ADC package, from the lack of crit to the Q active.

GigglesOMay 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot has spoken a lot about how they like to hold onto the special parts of a champion to keep them unique, but the new ashe rework looks like it's reducing her unique attributes to make her behave like other marksmen.

As someone who has played the new Ashe, there is only one thing I dislike. Even at 100% crit, the first attack never crits unless you hit volley/arrow first. Her slow and everything actually makes for a very different experience between balancing damage and crit chance. No other marksmen has that type of constant slow, crit, or utility in that style of combination.

Franco SanchezMay 6, 20151 votes

You've gotta be kidding me. She still has all of the reasons that I would pick her in the first place. Utility. A great ultimate for getting picks. And since when is changing her Q to something functional and giving her a unique mechanic with her crits homogenizing her? I would honestly say that she's got a lot more of a unique kit than most ADC's.

Sightless66May 6, 20151 votes

her passive will probably be just as (un-)impactful.

i know those increases to her damage are going to come at an overall cost to her utility.

It's a 5-35% slow. It ends up at the same slow value she has right now. Add in the slow her Q gives, and it's more potent in the reworked state than it is on live. Hawkshot is also much, much, much stronger than it is on live. Her utility is improved, not decreased. The only utility decrease you'll see is on the AoE slow on her ultimate (because it is now based on the passive slow instead of being a flat 50%).

She is getting damage on her Q, but remember that she's also losing damage, width, and reliability on the volley (bodyblocking half the volley is stupidly easy now. It's much harder to hit multiple enemies with a volley on the reworked Ashe than it is on live). Volley is much harder to hurt people with. She's not getting such massive damage increases that she needs to lose utility.

the design for new ashe seems to be based on the opinions of people who enjoy playing adcs like jinx, kog'maw, or twitch when it should have been based on the opinions of people who enjoy playing ashe.

How so? What opinions are being ignored? What elements of design cater to Jinx-loving people as opposed to Ashe-loving people? I'm not seeing it. From where I stand, nothing of the sort is happening.

R110May 6, 20151 votes

her volley is being made more reliable

Her volley is actually being made less reliable:

Decrease in width
Units can get hit by multiple arrows now but without taking bonus damage, making it easier to hide behind other units to dodge the volley.

And for the homogenizing part that I really don't understand why you would think that because:

Her E is actually more unique compared to Quinn or Kalista scouting tools as it has globalrange and 2 charges.
Her passive is what really separates her from any other champion by changing the way crit works.
Only the steroid could be seen as homogenizing but it needs stacks for full potential so she needs to be in combat for a short while and she can speed up the rate at which she gets stacks by hitting multiple units with volley. It also amplifies her passive. I would say her steroid is different enough from other steroids.

Steroids have a really interesting effect gameplay wise as they usually have some sort of cooldown which gives windows of power for both teams to play around. Prerework Ashe had basically always the same damage output with her autoattacks no matter when you encounter her. Now she will deal less damage when her steroid is down but more when it's up because her attackspeed/lvl has been decreased. It will probably lead to a general decrease of her damage I feel but it also enables ways to proactively get ahead in the game.