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I actually think Pyke is pretty balanced

Koechophe··83 votes·20,402 views

I'm prepared to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but I actually think he's in a good spot. He's not super powerful early game in lane, but he gets a massive power spike at level 6 when he has his ult, and he can do some serious damage in exchanges. His grab is very useful, and his e is a really good "let's get out of this situation without dying" move. A lot of his power budget is used on his ult, which is phenominal at all stages of the game. He's never tanky and can die very easily if you're not careful, but even with low income and items, he's always got a way to catch up if you can land good ults for kills.

I don't think he's OP, I don't think he's undertuned, I think his win rates are accurate of the fact that he's different (most supports powerspike at the beginning and fall off as the game goes on, he powerspikes a bit differently and plays differently) and I think that if riot leaves him alone, he will gradually become an accepted, balanced champ.

He's not a true assassin; he can't find people and 1v1 kill them unless they're not smart or he's stupid ahead. He cant instagib very well. He's really a support assassin; he plays all the main components of an assassin, but in a supplimentary way.

I don't think he needs any balance changes. I think he's in a good spot.

Thoughts?

140 Comments

FOR JUSTICE14 votes

imo yeah he is pretty balanced, a lot of his counterplay is shared with blitz/thresh or twitch. dodge the hook, hes a super minion. if you see the ADC walking up, hes probably charging a hook or about to pop out from stealth.

CppL9 votes

Its to early to say ,its been only couple of days since he"s released.But we know riot ,they gonna buff him ,and then they gonna fucking break him.Just like they did with Ornn Kaisa etc...

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

As apposed to the champs they didn't do this with, like Vel'Koz and Bard?

Jeddy0175 votes

Gonna? They already did buff him.

AmenPerson4 votes

They just increased his base stats slightly. Kai'Sa and Ornn got increased ratios as their buffs.

SoryInAdvance1 votes

A hotfix isn't a buff. That just made him playable.

Jeddy0172 votes

Yes, that's a buff. Even if the goal was to make him playable, even if the buffs were small & to the base stats, it's still a buff.

The Space Cowboy2 votes

They did say they’d reverse the buff later but I wouldn’t be surprised if it sticks.

Zullar9 votes

I like Pyke's design. I think it's well done.

Kai Guy7 votes

I think he is on the stronger side. I run Glacial augmentation for a rune and roll with a Botrk, on demand slows combined with the rest of his kit makes for some fun times and pretty one sided 1v2 3v2 situations depending on if you roam or if your getting teammates help.

AwakenedGenius8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IpdToAI4,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-06-04T07:16:32.565+0000)

I think he is on the stronger side. I run Glacial augmentation for a rune and roll with a Botrk, on demand slows combined with the rest of his kit makes for some fun times and pretty one sided 1v2 3v2 situations depending on if you roam or if your getting teammates help.

glacial augmentation and bork LOL

Kai Guy3 votes

The standard mix of electrocute and item 3071 item 3147 item 3142 gets that 42% win rate you made fun of. You tell me how well item 3050 item 3060 and Aftershock worked for you. Did you feel impactful?

I will happily take the extra CC on autos, Im down for an aoe 60% slow, on demand, that also hooks me up with a 25% ms boost to set up QER. Free gold and a lil CDR from the rest of the inspiration tree? works for me.

I play the guy as a support, Im still working on mechanics and testing items, ill be doing this in normal for a few more days. Unlike a huge # of folks thou, im not suffering when I play pyke and I win more then I lose.

NekoniClaws7 votes

As a disclaimer, I've not actually had a chance to play him yet. Practice tooled him, been supported by him (a lot.), vs'd him.

The issue for me, is people are currently very stupid with him. I don't think his kit is complicated (but a Thresh-main would say that) but people can take him into any matchup / teamcomp / build right now with impunity. His winrate probably suffers from it, but it's not until we see the dominant niche Pyke fills (vs Nami, Soraka, and Janna I'd say), and people begin to grasp the unique assassin-support playstyle, that I can say that his winrate suffers enough for the bad choices people are making. In fact Riot leans towards giving new champions a honeymoon period if they can.

Personally though, I don't like him. He's poor defense for the ADC, I view him like Brand, Lux or Veigar support. And like Veigar support there are times where his kit becomes INCREDIBLY STRONG (Veigar vs a bruiser-diver team? Oh yes.) but other times where you're just flailing around uselessly. I think he's going to end up very niche, and the data will be hard to sort on him. I think those few people who play him well only in his best matchups are going to flourish immensely.

TheWizardM2 votes

I agree for the most part. The reason that he fits in almost any comp reasonably well is because he has good roaming potential (similar to blitzcrank, lux, or morgana). In return for this he's quite easy to counter, and doesn't do well against almost half of the supports. I disagree with the statement that he doesn't provide apt protection for his adc though, as he has 2 forms of hard cc. Just like any other burst support (like Lux), good Pyke players will know when to use their tools to guarantee kills, and when they should save them for their adc. I also don't really agree with your examples, as both Lux and Veigar are prettygood at protecting adcs. I will agree brand isn't though, as his stun is really hard to land, and having to save 2-3 spells jsut to stun one champion makes it so he either doesn't do much in the fight, or leaves his adc unprotected, whereas Veigar and Lux only have to save 1-2 spells, and can still deal some poke damage with the other spells.

PhDs Nuts5 votes

They gave him Camille's mobility with stealth and Thresh's CC. I hate Pyke.

NorthernRedStar3 votes

Camille's CC is indefinitely harder to dodge than Pyke's.

He's a very balanced design. 3 skillshots, squishy, rewarding. Good job on this one, riot.

SettDownShutUp3 votes

Unsurprisingly people are trying to play him in a variety of different ways and roles, and that's causing his winrates to fluxuate more than your average champ.

When you tell a person "He's an assasin, but he's support" prepare for people to try and play him as anything BUT support.

Jimmy Rustles3 votes

Honestly, as someone who plays basically nothing but the support role (and a whole lotta champs who aren't "support") I think Pyke is great

I have yet to really have a bad game as him, since being a weird support is natural to me at this point, but I still understand warding and how important it is to complete your relic asap

The bad pykes I've faced all seem to be people who have never supported in their life before, they have minimal warding (The worst offender was someone with under 300g on relic at the 18 minute mark)

The only people making him look bad are ones who don't understand the fundamentals of support

Budget Yami3 votes

This is a discussion on if Pyke is balanced or not.

If somebody says something ignorant or if somebody is a low rank (like me) just correct them as they know that they are not high elo so don't say things like "your bronze, you dont know anything', just say 'no (insert name here) this is wrong because blah blah blah'.

SpiritOfOdysseus2 votes

I highly agree, he's very balanced compared to what I've heard

Slythrin Umbreon2 votes

I heard in game that he had mana problems, if that's true maybe they could consider small mana buffs.

Or you know. Just double his ult damage, because why not?

Kitsunes Lust2 votes

i think shiptur i believe said "he's a win/lose champion. he's really good if he's fed, but he's absolutely useless if he feeds" he only has 2 moves and does rely on them already being a bit low, and help with teammates, since he is an assassin, but can't assassinate AS fast and AS much damage as say zed or talon. And his execution cap is actually really fair tbh. last time i saw it on pbe, the execution limit was very high, then they switched it to like half i think. But in all honesty, i can actually see why he's classified as support, due to the fact of his kill share, and his large amount of cc. iah i feel he's for the players who A) their adc really sucks B) the player is one of those im not gonna build any support items and call myself support (im looking at you Brand Zyra )

but iah i do feel he's really balanced and fair tbh. tho, i do wish they would show the enemy player their own execution limit, so they can be aware of hey im near being executed i should play safe

flibitydoo2 votes

I remember before his release I had this one guy on the boards argue "his hook is the best in the game"

Yeah, buddy where are you?

Cause his hook is without a doubt the worst one in the game. The windup is super telegraphed. It can't go through minions so people typically duck behind them all laning phase so the opportunity never arrises. Even if you land it, it has no real stun duration tied to it, and there's plenty of time for your opponent to dodge your follow up E. Seriously Mr.Boards theorist who thought that "new hook=best hook", where are you? Cause you were so wrong. And I would like you to remember.

His actual engage is to W->E and then use the instant Q as a slow (or wind up Q if they flash) and make sure to auto for the electrocute proc. And his first E is easily sidestepped with the delay it has and his W has an indicator so you can clearly tell when he's going to engage like that. Meaning he has a lot of counterplay.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

There's also the massive hidden power of his ultimate that's giving everyone bonus gold for takedowns when he ults. He doesn't even have to be the one who kills them so long as he casts ult over them as they die.

GodlyBane2 votes

Look what happens when u remove TANKINESS and ABILITY SPAM (excluding his R lol) from a champs kit? he has a lot of skill design too, i can respect good pykes with that small af Q hitbox and that hard as hell to hit E.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

He's gonna need a nerf as he is. Just a prediction. Wait for LCS and pros to start playing him. May be wrong. Time will tell.

Teriyaki Bukkake2 votes

Not putting the champ down, but from what I've seen from pyke so far, he appears to be a coin flip champ, in that you either do really well or you're put behind by something and you can't come back unless your team rallies. Again, not saying hes bad or underpowered/overpowered, just saying he feels push or pull imo

Regulas2 votes

My opinion of Pkye is essentially: He'd be a fantastic champion if he could build hp, but he can't. His ganks are solid enough though often very ult dependant to actually finish people off.

His crippling issue is that late-game he becomes too much of a balloon. His gameplay is too direct so once enemies learn how to deal with him then he just is too fragile to be effective. His abilities don't land quickly enough to be able to burst people down like a real assassin and he basically has to run right at people. Usually what happens every game i've seen with myself or anyone else playing him is that he does ok for the first 15 then dramatically becomes useless as eventually even the enemy support can one shot him solo.

The idea of a no hp character is nfity but he doesn't have any of the tools a no hp character needs, because they tried instead to make a support character at the same time.

Morgy Morgy1 votes

i now hate him because he shits on rakan, at least in lane when he can turn rakan's W against him with his E

IcyPepper7 votes

can't Rakan just E back to his ally tho

Myozthirirn9 votes

you are animation locked for ~0.75 when you W

IcyPepper5 votes

Fair point. I stand corrected

Ok sure but why3 votes

Why can't everyone on the boards be like this

Kai Guy2 votes

Admirable pepper.

GrReaper961 votes

I would like to see something more on his W that helps with survivability by a TINY bit, but other than that i feel hes good.

Madsin251 votes

Maybe the fact he has the best base resists in the entire game will help with his survivability. Also he has regen like evelynn so yea.

His survivability is through the roof even with his fake "no hp passive".

IcyPepper2 votes

Yeah, I'm with you here. He probably should not get buffs to his survivability.

His passive is useful for weaving in and out of fights, like an assassin should. He gets rewarded for playing well, and will delightfully blow up if he overstays his welcome like an assassin should.

TheWizardM1 votes

I absolutely agree. He can be very powerful, but he has alot of counterplay. Any form of movement impair/knockback will prevent him from stunning people, and he's one of the two stealth champions that gives people a warning when he's nearby (the other is rengar, and Pyke's warning is generally more usefull as he doesn't oneshot people quite as quickly, and he take a bit longer to engage). So far I've noticed that Morgana is his worst supp counter, as she can prevent him from engaging with either engage (she can prevent charged q -> e with black shield, and e -> q press with dark binding) and place him in an awkward position while she does so, often guaranteeing a kill for her adc, as she will often get a Pyke to at least 50% hp, and her root is quite long. Generally, any support that has a strong movement impair or spell block combined with some sustain will do fine against Pyke (like Braum, Lux, Nami (if you can hit your stun)).

Blessed Death2 votes

Only played against him a few times, but I'm going to chime in and say that Leona feels like she's going to be his worst counter. She's got enough CC to counter engage and serve him up to the partnering ADC. Her Q just completely ruins his day. Her Q, followed by dmg from adc(plus the extra from her passive), her W shield explodey dmg and the E to stop him from getting away seemed like it was enough to get a kill quickly while still having enough juice to get the enemy adc as well with plenty of remaining health.

He's definitely screwed if he gets caught and melts really fast.

I plan on trying Nautilus the next time I can counter pick to see if he can have the same success. The AA root won't be as good as Leona's Q, but the root -> Naut's E may slow him down enough and may do enough damage to have the same effect.

Just my 2 cents, need them back though for RP.

AwakenedGenius1 votes

[deleted]

SettDownShutUp7 votes

first thing your gold so your opinion does not matter

Aaannd whatever you're saying I don't care anymore. Show respect to get respect.

Rank doesn't invalidate feedback, ever.

Budget Yami4 votes

I thought gold was good elo, Im a bronze 1... [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Wert the Wacky6 votes

{quoted}

first thing your gold so your opinion does not matter

2ndly he sucks, too long of cd on his hook other abilities are trash his stun is very hard to land his invisibility is pretty trash as support ult needs to be buffed - his execution is hard to actually use as execution because it does so little damage

Actually, you’re just trash.

Madsin254 votes

Dude if you think his stun is hard to land through STEALTH you are the one whos opinion doesn't matter.

Wert the Wacky1 votes

{quoted}

Dude if you think his stun is hard to land through STEALTH you are the one whos opinion doesn't matter.

His stealth ends as soon as he starts charging hook. Learn the champ before you screech about them.

HommeGoujon4 votes

other abilities are trash his **stun **is very hard to land

talking about stealth and stun (E), not stealth and hook. His E is not that hard to land.

Wert the Wacky3 votes

{quoted}

talking about stealth and stun (E), not stealth and hook. His E is not that hard to land.

Oh, no it’s not really, but there’s lots of warning that he’s in stealth. If you don’t see the sharks and think “hey maybe I should get somewhere safe” that’s your fault.

Sanl1 votes

[deleted]

Sanl1 votes

go ahead downvote me, i know every single person who downvotes is one of those lurches im talking about offended when they read the truth about themselves. I would actually feel bad if i ruined games as adc by going 0/4 on lane, wasting other 4 peoples time and effort and LP, how can you people live with yourselfes? how can you look into a mirror and not vomit?

TheZacStreetBoys4 votes

The fact that you're insulting every single person in low elo just for having an opinion does warrant downvotes, actually.

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