Why cant aatrox move during his q

Towboat421·Jun 29, 2018·43 votes·18,087 views

I know he can dash but im talking about regular movement it feels terrible on its own, why not make it like camilles W? Im better landing knock ups on sion then this crap.

44 Comments

Clayblob2Jun 29, 201826 votes

That's how I thought it was on release, boooy was I shurly mistaken. I was like

"Shure, cool... Ok Riot I guess I'll accept this rework. But then I was like wait wut??? Why can't he move with his q?

Chembaron YamadaJun 29, 201821 votes

They answered that in the AMA. When you are hitting with the outer area, his Q deals massive damage. Giving him the ability to move during the animation would make this skill too reliable and too easy to hit. So if they want to let him move during it, then they have to reduce the damage it deals massively.

Which would contradict his juggernaut design as well. Modern juggernauts tend to have tons of damage, but usually tied to an unreliable mechanic. Illaoi slow hitting tentacles Urgot shotgunknees forcing you to walk around the enemy Yorick preparation time to get his ghouls, having to hit E to send them

Same for Aatrox, his Q is unreliable to hit, you have to work for it, but if you make it work, then the reward is great.

MarshbouyJun 29, 20184 votes

He's not a juggernaut though. He has a dash and a good amount of CC.

Chembaron YamadaJun 29, 201813 votes

That argument was already held when they released Urgot's rework. People argued that he can't be a juggernaut, since he is ranged and has a dash.

Answer from Riot: just because a champion has tools that their subclass usually doesn't have does not mean they are not part of the subclass. What's really important for the juggernaut class is that their damage output feels kitable.

Yes, Urgot has range, hard CC and a dash. But the biggest part of his damage is put in his shotgunknees, which require you to walk around your enemy to proc them. He slows himself with his W, so yes, Urgot actually feels very kitable with his kit despite these parts.

Now ask yourself: does Aatrox feel kitable for you? Do you get the feeling you can avoid alot of his damage potential by proper movement? Because I surely as hell do, he is definitely a juggernaut for me.

My Waifu VanillaJun 30, 20186 votes

Also Urgot being Ranged is arguably a weakness and not a strength since he loses out on so many "melee" benefits like better Mallet, better Grasp, better conqueror, and Sterak's in its entirety. Urgot is only TRULY ranged in laning phase where he can poke a bit (even though he is STILL primarily poking with Q which is about the range as Illaoi Q iirc). Any point after that he basically HAS to be a melee champion since he gets too close.

In that regard he is the exact opposite as Gangplank who only has to "kind of" be melee in lane, but reaps ALL the rewards of being melee AND then proceeds to basically never enter melee range after early laning phase is over since he is a ranged burst mage disguised as a melee champion.

Blade WolfJun 30, 20182 votes

so yes, Urgot actually feels very kitable with his kit despite these parts.

I agree, especially because his "dash" is hardly a dash at all. The long windup animation means that once everyone gets t2 boots E'ing somewhere is actually not much faster than just right clicking. It's really more just like a cc skillshot that you can generally only hit as followup to his Q slow etc. and it just happens to move Urgot a short distance.

Velzard of KozJun 29, 20184 votes

Urgot has much larger dash, literal throw back and two slows.

TwitchInMyPantsJun 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They answered that in the AMA. When you are hitting with the outer area, his Q deals massive damage. Giving him the ability to move during the animation would make this skill too reliable and too easy to hit. So if they want to let him move during it, then they have to reduce the damage it deals massively.

Which would contradict his juggernaut design as well. Modern juggernauts tend to have tons of damage, but usually tied to an unreliable mechanic. slow hitting tentacles shotgunknees forcing you to walk around the enemy preparation time to get his ghouls, having to hit E to send them

Same for Aatrox, his Q is unreliable to hit, you have to work for it, but if you make it work, then the reward is great.

That's making an assumption that he's a juggernaut

He has to build AD to get good damage and he doesn't get reasonably tanky. Illaoi feels more sustained and durable, Sion feels more durable and has higher burst, ect. He feels like he's occupying the position of something like a Riven with this new kit where he needs to build lots of AD but he has the unreliability of a juggernaut and isn't rewarded with durability.

Chembaron YamadaJun 29, 20183 votes

Except it isn't an assumption at all, since Riot stated that Aatrox rework is shifting him into the juggernaut subclass.

Hell, it even gets directly stated on his reveal page.

Allies who shield and sustain him for more swings of The Darkin Blade will be rewarded with a frontline juggernaut who can take as much damage as he deals.

TwitchInMyPantsJun 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except it isn't an assumption at all, since Riot stated that Aatrox rework is shifting him into the juggernaut subclass.

Hell, it even gets directly stated on his reveal page.

It's an assumption that one heal passive is going to be enough to be substantial survivability. It's an assumption that simply having a bit more damage from Qs is enough for him to have strong damage threat. He lacks what every juggernaut has and he doesn't have the mobility to really be a diver or fighter either.

Chembaron YamadaJun 29, 20182 votes

His survivability doesn't just come from his healing passive from E, but also from his revive on his ultimate.

And the damage on his Q is actually fairly strong in my opinion. Hitting the 3Q combo deals damage equal to 450 + 450% AD.

TerozuJun 30, 20181 votes

Wait so why is Illaoi a juggernaut? She only has one heal passive.

NaturesMayhemJun 30, 20182 votes

Makes sense, but my issues with this is that all these champions have reliable kits though. Illaoi has slow hitting tentacles, but that only matters for poke. She has perfectly reliable poke with her Q and E. When she actually uses her tentacles, in teamfights when she ults, their speed is of no issue as the enemy team is going to have to disengage or get nuked.

Yorick has plenty of kill potential with his kit ignoring the ghouls. The ghouls just serve as an extended way to harass, which is fine as it's unlikely someone is going to initiate a trade in lane since he's so strong.

You're right about Urgot though, legs are unreliable, but his kit works well enough without them that you can just forget they're a feature as they're a passive.

Aatrox is different though, his Q is a main ability and his main source of damage besides auto attacks. Having such a ability being unreliable and so difficult to use effectively is bad. The only way you're landing of the 2nd part of the Q where it deals the most damage is if you use your W properly, and that only gets you 1 hit out of possibly 3. His kit just feels too easy to work around, similar to how Ornn was on release. Everything centered around his Q, but it took too long to pop-up, so enemies just walked away. That's how Aatrox is, he doesn't have the ability to take advantage of his main features.

My Waifu VanillaJun 30, 20182 votes

The fact that Illaoi can potentially do next to zero damage since ALL of her damage is skillshots is not a "reliable" kit. Her E IS a skillshot and where most of her damage comes from and it is only an actual useful ability if you can capitalize on when you actually hit it. Pull someone and there is no tentacle? Landing the ability didn't matter. It is a bit better when you start grouping and people can help you out, BUT you STILL have to hit the ability and unlike other skillshot reliant champions just hitting E still doesn't guarantee a WHOLE lot since there are still conditions to be met unlike someone like Lux or Xerath who have little conditions after they hit their CC based skillshot.

3TWarriorJun 30, 20181 votes

on the other hand, she is a GODLY objective taker because a team would be committing suicide to engage against her while her ultimate is up and she benefits from closed objectives such as dragon and baron

Blade WolfJun 30, 20181 votes

Ooo I never thought of it that way. Darius Q is another unreliable thing that makes trades feast if you land the outer edge and famine if you don't. Huh. That was pretty smart though qualifying with "modern juggernauts", since Garen is just. . . lol

RouwhorstJun 30, 20183 votes

All juggernauts become strong when fighting close up. Their abilities also get easier to hit; their reliability goes up. They generally want to be really close to someone. Admitted, Darius has his Q but that thing has such a short range that you can W into Q really quickly, but after that he want's to be close again. Sion is a little iffy with his Q, but he is not even classified as a juggernaut. Urgot could try to kite his opponent, but he is really comfortable being in his enemies face.

Aatrox has to stand quite a bit back to land his Q properly. He doesn't really gain an advantage of getting near. Rather, he gains a disadvantage. You could say that he is a sort of a mid-range juggernaut. Such thing could perhaps work... under the right conditions or perhaps back in the olden days. But now, with mobility and dashes everywhere, where gap closing is not that much of a problem anymore and his mid-range zone being too small makes said zone too easily bypassed.

He also has this weird mechanic where his effective range decreases with each Q cast, so only his 3th Q ~~benefits from~~ requires being close. Perhaps if Aatrox engages (or his team), he can do this. But if the enemy engages on him, he can't really respond to that as he is still in his medium range "form".

rayzoJun 30, 20181 votes

Wouldn't you think it would be better to make it more consistently landable but deal less damage? That sounds more balanced and less RNG in my opinion.

Chembaron YamadaJun 30, 20181 votes

If you make more constantly landable, then he wouldn't be a juggernaut anymore and it would feel kinda BS, tbh. This ability is able to give you 3 knockups in sequence, this is one single ability.

His disruptive power would be hella annoying if you let him hit his sweet spot easily. You could do it, but then you should heavily reduce the damage and take away the first 2 knockups and just let him knockup on his third Q.

rayzoJun 30, 20181 votes

I just played against an Aatrox and his Q charges seem ridiculously easy to dodge. Not to mention I was playing Galio who doesn't have the best mobility in the game.

Also, if you did that knockup change it would LITERALLY just be a riven q with longer range.

Chembaron YamadaJun 30, 20181 votes

Sorry, but that's how i see it. A triple knock up that is reliable to hit would feel unfair in my opinion. If they would make him able to move during casting it, they have to take alot of power away from it.

HayaishiJun 29, 201818 votes

It's a poorly designed ability.

TheCodeisCupCakeJun 29, 20185 votes

Its so stupid tbh. Aatrox new matchups are, you are either a toplaner who can all in him or kill him, or your either shit like Nasus and you lose. Most of the champion pool beats Aatrox because his first 2 Q's are useless once you get close. But if you play Garen or Nasus etc, he will destroy you if he hits you with outer Q's.

BLACK REALM GODJun 29, 20183 votes

i think the logic behind it is that you need to stand still in order to cleave the ground with great force. either that or they wanted to differentiate his Q combo from the Q combo of other fighters by requiring you to actually consider positioning.

or maybe they just forgot.

FreevageeterJun 29, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ip3LI6yQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-29T16:39:07.760+0000)

i think the logic behind it is that you need to stand still in order to cleave the ground with great force. either that or they wanted to differentiate his Q combo from the Q combo of other fighters by requiring you to actually consider positioning.

or maybe they just forgot.

This game isn't revolved around "Logic". Riven's blade is chipped, but out of nowhere when she ults, it's a fully built sword. This type of "logic" applies to 95% of the champions league has to offer.

BLACK REALM GODJun 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This game isn't revolved around "Logic". Riven's blade is chipped, but out of nowhere when she ults, it's a fully built sword. This type of "logic" applies to 95% of the champions league has to offer.

broken logic is still logic.

rtbf225618241Jun 29, 20182 votes

Riven's sword follows her own internal logic. It temporarily reassembles via magic obviously. It's not like it turns into a bubble pistol that puts people to sleep in a 3000 radius.

Pika FoxJun 29, 20183 votes

Because its designed around you being immobile while casting it. It has high damage and 3 CC procs, you arent supposed to be able to effortlessly land it.

MadVikingJun 29, 20183 votes

It's funny how he gets reworked and his main damage ability is so garbo.

VelvetCrotchJun 29, 20182 votes

Maybe cause it has a massiv hitbox.

DragonSheaJun 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I know he can dash but im talking about regular movement it feels terrible on its own, why not make it like camilles W? Im better landing knock ups on sion then this crap.

If he can move at reduced MS then I'd say it's fine. Maybe even have it return to 100% at X rank or level.

My Waifu VanillaJun 30, 20181 votes

That would STILL break him. If he can move AT ALL consistently with his Q it is a guarenteed 450+450% AD on anyone without a dash out. Even if he moved at HALF speed he would still probably hit all 3 off of any hit confirm on Q1. Moving at half speed means he STILL has time to move before you do since you are knocked up and he can move to the point you CAN'T dodge Q2 without dashing and then he can ALSO then guarantee Q3. Even if he DOES read you wrong on his half speed movement he still has his E to fix any mistake he could have made and you get hit anyway but this time you just take more damage as well.

The only way they would remotely allow him to move AT ALL during the Q is if they gut the damage or remove the knock up and both of them would leave him in a worse spot than he is now since lowering the damage on Q just deletes him from the game since that's ALL of his damage and removing the knock up doesn't really fix the problem since it makes him even more feast or famine and even worse against anyone that can actually dodge his Qs since even without the knock up he is still arguably going to hit all 3 against someone incredibly immobile like most tanks.

AHeroNamedHawkeJun 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ip3LI6yQ,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-06-30T03:13:32.705+0000)

That would STILL break him. If he can move AT ALL consistently with his Q it is a guarenteed 450+450% AD on anyone without a dash out. Even if he moved at HALF speed he would still probably hit all 3 off of any hit confirm on Q1. Moving at half speed means he STILL has time to move before you do since you are knocked up and he can move to the point you CAN'T dodge Q2 without dashing and then he can ALSO then guarantee Q3. Even if he DOES read you wrong on his half speed movement he still has his E to fix any mistake he could have made and you get hit anyway but this time you just take more damage as well.

The only way they would remotely allow him to move AT ALL during the Q is if they gut the damage or remove the knock up and both of them would leave him in a worse spot than he is now since lowering the damage on Q just deletes him from the game since that's ALL of his damage and removing the knock up doesn't really fix the problem since it makes him even more feast or famine and even worse against anyone that can actually dodge his Qs since even without the knock up he is still arguably going to hit all 3 against someone incredibly immobile like most tanks.

That number is extremely misleading, simply due to the fact he can't properly weave autos between abilities without missing all the knockups.

Riven doing the same thing (much faster and with built in movement) technically deals 285 + 600% AD with her Q alone, and its far less restrictive for roughly the same reward. His Q doesn't do nearly enough to justify how horribly slow and limited it is right now.

My Waifu VanillaJun 30, 20181 votes

What? How is the number misleading? That is how much damage 3 sweet spots does. And being able to move while casting Q would make it near impossible to dodge them without a dash since their hitboxes are massive and he can also STILL dash if you walk/juke it. Riven also doesn't get a knock up and heal for 21.25% of all the damage she does. They are two different champions I don't see a reason to compare them so hard.

Also adding more damage on Q won't solve his issues. It will just make it even more polarizing of hitting them or not. If anything they should lower the cast time with rank/champion level similar to Lucian Q and he might see a bit more success, but as it stands he IS a high skill floor champion and thus SHOULD do about as good as a high skill floor champion.

AHeroNamedHawkeJun 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ip3LI6yQ,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-30T08:01:30.837+0000)

What? How is the number misleading? That is how much damage 3 sweet spots does. And being able to move while casting Q would make it near impossible to dodge them without a dash since their hitboxes are massive and he can also STILL dash if you walk/juke it. Riven also doesn't get a knock up and heal for 21.25% of all the damage she does. They are two different champions I don't see a reason to compare them so hard.

Also adding more damage on Q won't solve his issues. It will just make it even more polarizing of hitting them or not. If anything they should lower the cast time with rank/champion level similar to Lucian Q and he might see a bit more success, but as it stands he IS a high skill floor champion and thus SHOULD do about as good as a high skill floor champion.

...Riven does get a knockup, and the comparison is just their Qs. Many champs function in a similar fashion, even though their abilities deal less damage theyre enabled to autoattack multiple times throughout a trade.

Aatrox doesnt autoattack, so despite his seemingly large Q numbers it doesnt matter much. Oh, and Im fairly confident his healing is reduced by AoE anyway, so he still isnt matching Darius sustain as a jugg or whatever.

Mighty MorteinJun 30, 20182 votes

I get it's supposed to have a "heavier feel" since they didn't want us to mistake it for a Riven Q lul, but don't you think Aatrox is a little more skilled? Why is some war-loving Darkin so damn clunky when it translates to his kit?

PrinceOfStormsJun 30, 20182 votes

He could in initial development, but it turned out that was extremely busted, so they could either reduce the damage or root him during the cast. Riot went with the latter.

Besides, you're supposed to use E to reposition during Q.

MasterDCloneJun 29, 20181 votes

its to add value to his e and reword the people who master the champion.

Bouncemaster ZacJun 30, 20181 votes

Because it would be hilariously broken if he could. Being able to consistently land 3 knockups on a single basic ability is insane. He needs to be clunky in order not to be op.

DragonSheaJun 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ip3LI6yQ,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-06-30T05:14:24.396+0000)

Because it would be hilariously broken if he could. Being able to consistently land 3 knockups on a single basic ability is insane. He needs to be clunky in order not to be op.

Aatrox doesn't need to be super clunky. what he needs is make him have a smooth Q casting sequence. Another good QoL for Aatrox would be to gain a free empowered E increase his dash range if he lands a hit on the sweet spot in order to better get in range for his next Q. Or else just increase his Knock up duration to give him more time to get in for another Q knock up.

CansemaJun 30, 20181 votes

Request you post video of yourself doing 3 things

-kicking while advancing forward ... -Swinging a sword in the manner that Aatrox is swinging the sword while you are trying to walk forward. -hope forward while swinging a sword in the manner of Aatrox.

2 of the 3 will feel natural.. the other one .. not so much..

"Realism"

Towboat421Jun 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Request you post video of yourself doing 3 things

-kicking while advancing forward ... -Swinging a sword in the manner that Aatrox is swinging the sword while you are trying to walk forward. -hope forward while swinging a sword in the manner of Aatrox.

2 of the 3 will feel natural.. the other one .. not so much..

"Realism"

Riven shouldnt exist by your logic