Generalist defense creates broken offense

Moody P··8 votes·5,119 views

Tanks, enchanters, and some fighters having all-encompassing defensive measures is a big contributor to current damage creep, but I'm mostly going to be talking about tanks. Because they block and reduce all damage they force interactions with them into a stat check and this effect is felt the hardest in 1 on 1 laning encounters - usually against fighters. We see this happen again and again with tanks: Nautilus top back in S5/S6, Ornn top, Sion, Shen, Poppy, etc. force the lane into an interaction of "get through my shield or you lose the trade by default." Sejuani also does this, though she is at least vulnerable to being poked back and denied her steroid. This is also part of why tank metas are so insufferable; when tanks are in a position to get fed, they can completely take over the entire game because nobody can handle their high, generic durability. Damage reduction has the same issue, which is why Alistar is generally a recurring problem for being able to outright ignore all incoming damage except for true - I doubt it's coincidence that we now have more true damage. (Though to be fair damage reduction is more often found on fighters.)

Because of this interaction they tend to have disproportionately strong lanes into fighters they're not supposed to be actively out-trading and beating given their natural ability to out-scale. As a response, there's been an ongoing arms race between damage and durability that is currently heavily weighted toward the former. The solution to this eternal powering up between the two isn't to also buff defense further, but to revise it away from generalist "counter all damage" designs and focusing tank survivability into being especially durable against specific things. Through this, generic solutions like giving everyone absurd amounts of armor pen or just outright ignoring defense entirely (Conqueror) can be safely taken out of the game once they're no longer a necessity for fighters to exist.

There are some tanks who do not have this issue and instead have specialized defenses. Malphite has the issue to a smaller degree by being heavily incentivized to prioritize armor, making his shield (and himself) more vulnerable to magic damage, though in his rework he should likely lose the shield altogether. Galio's magic shield doesn't protect him against physical assault at all, and his damage reduction is halved against physical damage. Amumu passively reduces AA damage on his E as well as reducing its cooldown when he's right clicked -- as well as disarming on his ult, a combination that leaves him vulnerable to casters. Things like this are much better for the game, IMO - which is why 2 of them currently struggle to justify their place, because any other tank can either just pop out massive shields, hefty heals, or just gaining tons of resists, and because the game has amped damage and tank-killing in response to that, Amumu and Malphite have found themselves on the short end of the stick.

Related tangent is that IMO tank designs are gimped in this regard by Riot's strange refusal to give tanks interesting buffs and debuffs. Ornn was close to this with Brittle but the purpose of the debuff is ruined by the fact that he can proc it himself and that it's mostly just there as a conditional damage burst. Tanks who could bolster allies in specific ways or who had defenses that worked to target different means of damage (for example, countering AD spells vs AD rightclicks vs on-hit rightclicks) would immediately have ways to justify themselves being picked beyond simply being "a good tank," which helps curb the current soloQ issue of "if you didn't pick Sion why did you pick a tank at all?" Not every tank should do these things, obviously, but the current tank design of being good almost entirely for lock-down and generic bulkiness and not much else leads to a very repetitive process of only picking whichever tank has the best or most reliable CC and tankiness. (Sion in SoloQ and Sejuani in pro play for solo tanks, Alistar for support)

21 Comments

D357R0Y3R4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-30T11:12:45.067+0000)

(Alistar for support)

Alistar was always designed to be a good tank against everyone His ult was designed that way because before supports had no gold, so he could only tank for few seconds with his ult

Taric was not designed to be a generalist, however since adcs were meta back in the days he was a balance problem because of his armor aura

I think nowdays, if they brought back taric's armor aura on his W he wouldn't be an issue because people can just play karthus botlane or some shit

But Riot game doesn't want any defensive buff to come back they removed sona's armor/mr buff, soraka's armor buff, j4's armor buff ect...

Bobloser35551 votes

He is not a good tank against everyone cause his Ulti doesnt work vs true damage.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

it generally doesn't matter, most champions can deal up to 20% true damage out of their total damage output even someone like vayne has 88% of her damage being physical and 12% being true damage

and I said it doesn't matter because Alistar will not face 5 champions who deal massive true damage

Bobloser35551 votes

On champion.gg it says Vayne deals 24% true damage, problem is she melts everyone doesn't matter what they build. IMO Alisters ulti should protect from true damage too.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

Poppy should never be a tank. Riot needs to start balancing her as a briuiser.

Moody P1 votes

Why's that?

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-30T13:12:16.325+0000)

Why's that?

because she's supposed to be a bruiser.

Death by Glamour2 votes

3 forms of CC and % hp damage begs to differ

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-30T14:31:37.834+0000)

3 forms of CC and % hp damage begs to differ

i couldn't care less about what's in her kit. Poppy is supposed to be a bruiser. Might aswell call darius a tank as he has 2 forms of CC. He has CC just as good as poppy aside from her stun which is incredibly situational.

just because tank ekko became meta didn't mean he was supposed to be a tank.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-30T13:36:31.383+0000)

because she's supposed to be a bruiser.

dafq is a bruiser though?

Juggernaut? Diver? Skirmisher?

In my eyes she is a damn tank that runs people down with base damages and in some rare cases, AD cheese build.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

all 3 of those are bruisers. Skirmishers being the squishiest of em and juggs being the tankiest. the fact riot needs a "specialist" group shows their class naming is far to specific.

considering poppy should be building Triforce into tank mostly i'd say she falls into the juggernaut slot. That is ofcourse if riot did what's right and balanced her around being a bruiser, like she was pre rework. which is why her rework is almost perfect. almost.

Y'all can downvote me all you want, atleast i won't be the one that sold out poppy's identity. something y'all love crying about when talking about galio (and i don't blame you).

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-30T23:29:50.708+0000)

all 3 of those are bruisers. Skirmishers being the squishiest of em and juggs being the tankiest. the fact riot needs a "specialist" group shows their class naming is far to specific.

considering poppy should be building Triforce into tank mostly i'd say she falls into the juggernaut slot. That is ofcourse if riot did what's right and balanced her around being a bruiser, like she was pre rework. which is why her rework is almost perfect. almost.

Y'all can downvote me all you want, atleast i won't be the one that sold out poppy's identity. something y'all love crying about when talking about galio (and i don't blame you).

Sold out identity?

IMO both their identities pre rework were shit though.....

And triforce poppy is a AD cheese build meant to dunk squishies, especially given that her max HP damage scales of pure AD which makes....well a pure AD item better for DPS.

Bobloser35551 votes

Thats a big wall of text I dont know what you are saying, only read like the first section.

La Bello1 votes

I agree. Im glad someone finally noticed this. Its actually what makes shielding and HP stack tanks the best type of tanks Sion Chogath DrMundo ESPECIALLY with the onset of True damage nonsense. Resist heavy tanks will shit the bed against true damage but "Overshield" tanks will do fine as their defensive measures lie in the shield and not the resist stack. Tanks need to actually have niche's and direction as to what they're supposed to tank. Maokai and Galio were supposed to be anti spell-casters. Malphite and Rammus were supposed to be anti AD. Overtime designs have just gotten muddled and now its like Rammus ball curl can give 250 Magic Resist, Galio can reduce PHYSICAL damage just as easily as he reduces magic damage and Maokai really doesn't care if you are dealing magic damage or not anyway. the niches of these champions got bastardized and just made all encompassing so people can pick their favorite champion into ANY comp and not have to care about smart drafting or counterpicking. This was no accident I think neither. I think there might be financial reasons to make every champion in the game pickable whenever as opposed to wavering viability based on enemy comp. Something to do with Blindpick and encouraging "one tricking" maybe? (are one-tricks more likely to buy skins than none one-tricks?)

anyways yeah.they need to go down the line and give back champions a damage type direction instead of just letting them be effective into every damage type simultaneously with next to no real weakness. It shouldnt be all that hard to do.

Just off the top of my head some quick changes riot could do

Garen - Demacian steel is supposed to be anti-MAGIC armor. Not everything armor. Remove the free Armor and Armor Reduction he gets from active. Courage active should be purely to shave off incoming Spells and the CC that comes along with them. Not shave off literally everything thrown at him. I cannot stand how ball-of stats and powercreeped Garen's W spell has become.

Poppy - Instead of the whole little "doubled resist perpetually when low" feature how about just giving her like a short 4~6sec window when under 40% HP where burst specifically doesn't work on her? Any spell/attack that would deal over 100 damage gets reduced down to 100 exactly instead or something? Idk. I just hate the static "become a statball when low" design current Poppy steadfast has. also add some VFX to it when the passive procs so people know not to toss nukes at her.

Rammus - remove the magic resist SCALING off of Ball curl. Instead add some more Armor scaling to his Tremors to compensate. you should NEVER be picking a fucking Rammus into multple mages yet in nowadays LoL thats something completely possible thanks to that stupid MR scaling mechanic on ball curl.

Galio Remove the Physical dmg Reduction on W entirely . Increase the 8% per 100MR to 10%per 100MR.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=La Bello,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-30T16:44:24.116+0000)

Garen - Demacian steel is supposed to be anti-MAGIC armor. Not everything armor.

the armor itself would be the physical armor in this case, you dingus. its still a suit of steel armor.

lets not start a discussion about lore vs. gameplay anyways.

Remove the free Armor and Armor Reduction he gets from active

i assume you meant the damage reduction.

every juggernaut (this is what garen is, and not a tank) has a mechanic in his kit that scales up his health. for darius its the % missing health heal on his q. for garen its the 24 second cooldown active of his w.

Moody P1 votes

that reminds me i meant to make a suggestion that garen should trade some W duration for shaving off the CD

i think it would play into his supposed niche of hit-run juggernaut to be able to have W up more often so he can make more use of its tenacity to escape a fight and then come back

La Bello1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-30T17:14:05.167+0000)

the armor itself would be the physical armor in this case, you dingus. its still a suit of steel armor.

lets not start a discussion about lore vs. gameplay anyways.

i assume you meant the damage reduction.

every juggernaut (this is what garen is, and not a tank) has a mechanic in his kit that scales up his health. for darius its the % missing health heal on his q. for garen its the 24 second cooldown active of his w.

tons of people in the game are wearing suits of armor but dont get 70% phys damage reduction arbitrarily. the special thing about Garens armor compared to most is that its made in Demacia which is said to be super effective against magic and dark magic ("Mordekaiser made not of this in his lore short IIRC").

also I understand nearly every~~ juggernaut~~ MELEE CHAMPION IN GENERAL . has a defensive ability that keeps them protected in a pinch.

removing the Physical part of this and just giving Garen normal Armor per level scaling would be fine. Also there is the whole free warmogs passive thing he's got going on.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=La Bello,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgOAiAQL,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2018-12-30T19:55:38.946+0000)

Also there is the whole free warmogs passive thing he's got going on.

do you see anyone buying warmogs these days? thats because that passive isnt actually good.

just like garens passive, its kindof there but everything else is more useful and more important first.

Moody P1 votes

Galio's problem is that his mechanics completely hard-counter melee aggressors even if his stats work better into mages. Removing his phys dmg reduction doesn't change much in the grand scheme because he'd still hard deny any diver or assassin with his W, E and R.

Garen's W really hasn't been power creeped that much; recent buffs were more of a revert to ancient nerfs, and even then only partially since he used to have tenacity for the entire duration. I agree the general defense thing is kind of stale, but given Garen's very simple kit (lack of range, poor target access) it's currently a necessity unless Riot changes their mind and gives the "training wheels champ" some proper work.

i wouldn't mind copying juggernaut's spin from dota2 and giving garen magic immunity while it's going off :^)

chipndip11 votes

Here's my issue: Riot has been trying to reduce generalist defensive steroids and mechanics by either gearing them towards specific types of threats (Poppy's W, Galio's W and passive MR shield as examples) or by windowing them (Poppy's passive, Shen's W, Garen's W, Irelia's W...honestly a ton of defensive mechanics are clear examples of this). Idk what else you can ask for when they're already trying to do what you want them to do. You can't just say "Up and remove all shields" because that'd just make defending others or yourself significantly harder to accomplish without making everything generically more tanky, which would be the exact definition of "Generalist defenses". If you make it so that defensive mechanics are super niche, it'll be too hard to blind pick defensive champs, which would then skew balance in favor of offensive champs.

Now am I saying shields are super fine? No, they are definitely really shit to deal with. However, the post should focus more on shield game play rather than bashing...tanks...for being...generalists. They've really come a long way from when the claim was blatantly true.

Moody P2 votes

It's not just shields. Most champions who gain resists, for example, don't gain just one of the stats, they gain both. This is still generalist defense. It's not bad occasionally to put this on a champion who is otherwise very niche, but there's really champion in LoL who qualifies as being "very niche."

Galio's only not-generalist defense is his shield, really. Almost everything about him mechanically is basically universal; in fact, mechanically speaking, he's a harder counter to melee aggressors than mages on account of his W E and R, despite being advertised as the anti-mage Warden when in reality he "counters" mages by being a tank who can poke back. But we're talking about the defense, so... yeah, Galio's W is at least not generalist, because he survives better against magic damage.

Windowed defense isn't not-generalist. Garen's W protects him equally from all incoming damage except for true damage, this is true of all defensive damage reduction spells, same for Irelia and Warwick. Shen's W is niche because it only protects from auto attacks, not because it's windowed.

Generically more tanky is only in regards to HP; higher armor or MR on their own are not generalist, the problem arises with the fact that most champions will stack both or, if they gain it as a steroid, will.. gain both. Gaining one or being pushed towards having a lot of only one is fine.

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