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Not helping a losing lane to try to help other lanes fallacy

DarkinPrime··6 votes·1,925 views

I am not saying its the junglers job to help win a lane.

Though it is funny that junglers always assume the laner should help them in the river or when they are in the enemy jungle.

I am saying that people lose lanes. You will have bad players. Even the best players in the world lose lanes. Its a fact of the game.

The question is, when you see an enemy champion snowballing hard in a lane and you decide to ignore it.....

....you are pitting what is a 100% certainty (fed enemy champion) vs a maybe....MAYBE you will help the other lanes do well. And also consider, if your top lane is losing hard...why on earth do you think you will be able to effect the other lanes to compensate given the fact that THEIR jungler will easily be there too, since he doesn have to worry about the fed lane?

Now, it may be prudent to not help a certain lane, but at some point you need to decide, realistically, how good your odds are at helping the other lanes and if MAYBE its worth it to to stop the bleeding in an lane early, to try to make sure the game lasts loner especailly if the losting teammate is a late game scaling champion.

I don't give a fuck about my match history. I have no idea what I'm doing with Karthus still, but I have made this argument before maining other champions at top when I enjoyed a 60% win rate in other seasons. So, all you like to do is ignore the topic and find something to use to attack me, please don't waste my time and try to learn not be so myopic and petty.

25 Comments

Done259 votes

Ganking a losing lane is a very good way to handle the enemy laner(s) multiple kills.

DarkinPrime1 votes

Its also a great way to prevent as snowball.

FOR JUSTICE7 votes

its only worth if im equally as fed as your laner and i could use the shutdown, else he just gets a double and now he's even further ahead while im counterjungled/an objective is lost.

you also have to consider how the jungler match ganks, by ganking another lane he "matches" the enemy's fed players (himself + ganked laner, vs enemy jungler + their fed laner)

THATS why you dont risk the losing lane, you lose pressure thats far better used elsewhere, and thus the risk you're taking just isnt worth what your getting out of it. at the very most, you just lower the deficit for the laner who will still most probably going to be behind his laner unless you gank again.

Deliberate Inter4 votes

Junglers should pursue the highest value in regards to winning the game, period.

TSM Polarbear2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IWhrbmt3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-26T22:58:28.596+0000)

Junglers should pursue the highest value in regards to winning the game, period.

exactly

Deliberate Inter2 votes

In solo queue specifically, that usually has nothing to do with ganking a losing lane.

TSM Polarbear1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IWhrbmt3,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T23:48:14.463+0000)

In solo queue specifically, that usually has nothing to do with ganking a losing lane.

Champions are tools to win the game so you invest and use the shit out of the tools that will get the job done even if the tool is locking up you can still make it work with a little WD40 because its made well.

Not the cheap chinese tool that falls apart and if unfixable and possibly has a factory defect its needs to be recalled and is not worth your time.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

There can be and in solo queue often is better equity elsewhere. Investing in anything beneficial is "good" but not when the cost of opportunity is greater.

TSM Polarbear1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IWhrbmt3,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T00:30:29.922+0000)

There can be and in solo queue often is better equity elsewhere. Investing in anything beneficial is "good" but not when the cost of opportunity is greater.

Not sure what you mean exactly, I mean you can Help a lane that has the opportunity to be useful the longer the game goes on but in general those champs scale anyway so no opportunity is lost.

If your a lane bully and you lose like if a renekton went 0-3 his opportunity is out the window and he isn't going to scale at all.

but it just depends on a lot more then this kind of stuff there a ton of variables.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

There are a ton of variables and as someone who understands them better than most people outside of the best 20% of pro analysts you usually cut your losing lanes in solo queue. ;)

TSM Polarbear1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IWhrbmt3,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T01:14:18.825+0000)

There are a ton of variables and as someone who understands them better than most people outside of the best 20% of pro analysts you usually cut your losing lanes in solo queue. ;)

I agree cutting off your losing lane is a better decision.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

Yes, it often is

The thigh guy3 votes

Problem being if you feed someone to the point where they can 2v1 us then I physically cannot do anything. If I go up there, it’s handjng them 300 gold +what ever bounty I gained by existing.

DarkinPrime1 votes

Not when they are hanging around with 1/4 of their health. Why are you people imaginging some idiotic scenario, like I want them to gank my lane in a losing situation. You arent understanding the point of my post,

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Not when they are hanging around with 1/4 of their health. Why are you people imaginging some idiotic scenario, like I want them to gank my lane in a losing situation. You arent understanding the point of my post,

Except you are assuming the enemy is stupid enough to have around on 1/4 health. -.-

DarkinPrime1 votes

BUT HE WAS.

Moonscourge3 votes

If you're 2 kills down and 1 level below the enemy you can bet your ass I rather gank somewhere else. One guy losing even harder to a single guy on the enemy team is easier to recover from than having another person die to them, give them another 300+ gold and lose map presence.

TSM Polarbear1 votes

It depends on the match up and if there's a winning factor for me to help you or secondary any kill pressure at all,

For instance if i have a jax or tryndamere who is 0-3 i might go help him because we still have good chance of getting him back into the game because of their champions being useful if its waveclear or pressure later in the game.

But if i have a leblanc or zed that is 0-3 within 10 mins i would most likely ignore the lane because they lost as an early game champion and even if they come back into the game they are going to be very limited in helping us win the game so i would rather help my bot lane or top and it would make more sense for them to decide to roam and get picks to get back into the game rather then me go mid as a jungle and try to do something now this isn't for all instances maybe sometimes people just get unlucky and die in early skirmishes but they are really good players and just need a little help but for the most part in low elo that's what i do pretty much asses your win condition.

I think a big issue is players have a hard time accepting when a lane is a loss.

DarkinPrime1 votes

And I think that Junglers declare a lane a loss far too easily.

Verxint1 votes

If the laner who is behind can get the enemy into an exposed position, then it's worth ganking. You do not try to force a play on a losing lane.

And for what its worth, junglers who think lanes with no priority should help them in invades are just as stupid.

TSM Polarbear2 votes

{quoted}

If the laner who is behind can get the enemy into an exposed position, then it's worth ganking. You do not try to force a play on a losing lane.

And for what its worth, junglers who think lanes with no priority should help them in invades are just as stupid.

No just because your fed opponent exposes himself to ganks doesn't make ganking him a better decision it depends on a lot not just if he is gankable.

Also most of the time it isn't your laner getting the fed enemy into a position its the fed enemy being fed and knowing he can do whatever the fuck he wants and can probably 2v1..and is taunting the enemy to waste time top.

Your top laner is useless and now their top laner wants to become more of a problem and take more resources from your team by having the enemy jungle come top to waste time increasing his teams odds of winning all over the map so you go top to help now his bot/mid/jungle take dragon and counter jungle you and now you just took a big hit as a jungler in hopes that you get somthing top when there is more of a guarantee on dragon or your bot jungle and higher chance of success killing a non one sided lane.

So its not about that guy sucks im not ganking him its just a success rate thing you go for things that are more of a guaranteed and avoid high variable situations this is why champion picks come into play too because kill pressure and CC increases your odds of having a successful gank like if im zac im ganking a yasuo all day because it has a very low chance of failing even if yas feeds and is bad all we do is press R.

Verxint1 votes

Okay correction, it can be worth ganking. It depends on how greedy they are, what the matchup is, how strong you are, etc. My point was more that if you're just dying to basic spells in the middle of your lane, there's no way in hell I'll help you. If the guy is repeatedly taking tower shots and you're actually giving him a hard time killing you, there's a chance I can find a moment to nab an easy kill.

What I was mostly emphasizing is that you never force a gank on the fed enemy laner by yourself. You can't just walk up to them when they have their resources up and expect it to work like it would if the lane was even.

DarkinPrime1 votes

When the enemy is staying right up at your turret with low health...its gankable.

Light Burner1 votes

Are you that salty dude? You make another post of the same topic after we discussed this one on your previous post and you were proven wrong.

Iota Theta1 votes

why on earth do you think you will be able to effect the other lanes to compensate given the fact that THEIR jungler will easily be there too, since he doesn have to worry about the fed lane?

This is actually an interesting reason against your point. Since the enemy jungler doesn’t need to focus on their now winning lane, sure you could go there and make it a 2v1, possibly lose, possibly win. In the meantime, you are sacrificing presence and objective control elsewhere. So while you try for a chance to dig your teammate out of the hole they’re in, the enemy jungler will take drakes, take herald, counterjungle, or try and snowball other lanes and take towers. If he does either of the first 2, his whole team starts to snowball. If he counterjungles, he starves your jungler. If he does the last, you just took one losing lane and earned another losing lane or even all three. You want to try and tip the scales elsewhere, prevent him from snowballing his entire team because you focused on a lost area.

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