Daily reminder that Vayne does not have a weak early game

FalconPawwwwnch·Aug 29, 2015·196 votes·22,194 views

Considering she wins over 51% of her games that last between 0-25 minutes

Here's what actual weak early game champions look like:

http://champion.gg/champion/Poppy/Top Does nothing but increase as game goes on

http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top Starts at around 41%, keeps increasing as game goes on

http://champion.gg/champion/Karthus/Middle Lowest point is early game

Enough with your excuses already, this champions is broken as hell and needs to be toned down, she's picked in almost 40% of games and wins over 52% of them

Not to mention Vayne is the most picked champion in Korea, with the highest win rate out of all ADCs

http://www.op.gg/statistics/champion/

Keep defending this anomaly of a champ design tho

236 Comments

bradAug 29, 201590 votes

"DAILY" FUCKING REMINDER THAT IF YOU ARENT REMINDING PEOPLE EVERY DAY THEN YOUR "DAILY REMINDER" ISNT DAILY

Hyrum GraffAug 30, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi im bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IO0NQNEA,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-08-29T21:20:33.752+0000)

"DAILY" FUCKING REMINDER THAT IF YOU ARENT REMINDING PEOPLE EVERY DAY THEN YOUR "DAILY REMINDER" ISNT DAILY

it's kind of a throwback to old gd when people actually made daily threads.

TotalJerkAug 30, 201526 votes

No, it's a 4chanism. And that says enough about the type of people who make these threads.

ArkenStormAug 30, 20154 votes

Just because it doesn't make the "hot" page daily doesn't mean it's not posted daily

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 30, 201567 votes

Enough with your excuses already, this champions is broken as hell and needs to be toned down, she's picked in almost 40% of games and wins over 52% of them

I may have missed this discussion, but do you happen to have a link to a recent post where we make excuses about Vayne? I may just be out of the loop, but I don't really think anyone over here thinks she's not on the strong side of average.

FalconPawwwwnchAug 30, 201538 votes

The "you" was directed to the many people on this forum who claim she has a weak early game as her justification

I'm pretty sure you and I have been over this before, I know you and riot think she's on the strong side already

Kuroi86Aug 30, 20156 votes

While I don't think it's justification, her early game is/was weak prior to her counters being nerfed.

this champions is broken as hell and needs to be toned down

Also, I know you've been here long enough to know better. Poppy is broken, Vayne is just overpowered in the current meta and needs some minor nerfs or her counters buffed back a bit.

Mike17032Aug 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I may have missed this discussion, but do you happen to have a link to a recent post where we make excuses about Vayne? I may just be out of the loop, but I don't really think anyone over here thinks she's not on the strong side of average.

So is she on the strong side of average because she is OP, or because so many of the other ADCs average out to bad?

Right now playing most other champs in that role sure does suck.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 30, 201522 votes

Probably closer to the latter. I don't necessarily think ADCs are on average bad, but many have been nerfed, allowing Vayne to be inordinately represented in the position at the moment. It's possible (though not guaranteed) that we do small touches to Vayne before the world finals patch as a stopgap solution to her being the strongest, but I think after that point, it should probably be more about addressing things that have changed that have allowed Vayne to become so dominant. For as much as other variables have changed, Vayne has stayed relatively constant as far as her personal in-game numbers go.

RetillinAug 30, 20157 votes

Vayne is so dominant because: A: She has high mobility B: True damage C: Synergy with BotRK D: Her disengage with "E" E: Other ADCs that punish her weak game (Graves, ect...) have been nerfed

One of those things has to change. Riot seems to LOVE skill shots. So just make her E a skill shot with (I dont know) 1200 speed. Done. Then you can keep her core identity.

She is one of the champions people claim Riot has a bias to. And for good reason...

Azoth De WolfAug 30, 20151 votes

Her E isn't the problem. It's her damn true damage. I've had a Vayne do over a 1000 true damage from her silver bolts and all her other abilities did maybe 500 altogether.

Ariel the CruelAug 30, 20153 votes

A) You had a lot of health. B) You had a lot of armor.

Based on this, you were likely playing a tank. I'm guessing Sion? If so, these numbers aren't that crazy. Also, when you say "all her other abilities", you mean "condemn"? Because Tumble, Silver bolts, and her ult all modify her AA and don't do damage.

RottedApplesAug 30, 20152 votes

i would like to bring up the fact that most adc's have a good win percentage in games that are 0-25 mins. vayne is not very special here.

TaigongwangAug 30, 20158 votes

The main problem is that while Vayne is a hyper carry, she has a very safe laning phase with the combination of her Q and E. She can correct mistakes in lane with minimal cost, and continue on farming. Currently, very few ADC's and supports can keep the pressure on her constantly because of the minor cost she has associated with her Tumble and Condemn.

The minor problem is that she only needs one item to become relevant. Blade of the Ruined King. No matter how far behind she gets, once she gets that item, she starts killing people with ease. Even if the enemy ADC is 1.5K gold and two levels ahead, assuming equal skill, Vayne wins most of the time.

The laning phase can be addressed with ease. Blade of the Ruined King's synergy with her is MUCH more complex and would probably require some major tweaks on her W and stat scaling.

youngjake93Aug 30, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Probably closer to the latter. I don't necessarily think ADCs are on average bad, but many have been nerfed, allowing Vayne to be inordinately represented in the position at the moment. It's possible (though not guaranteed) that we do small touches to Vayne before the world finals patch as a stopgap solution to her being the strongest, but I think after that point, it should probably be more about addressing things that have changed that have allowed Vayne to become so dominant. For as much as other variables have changed, Vayne has stayed relatively constant as far as her personal in-game numbers go.

But BORK has been buffed.

WarWorkAug 30, 201515 votes

I don't understand how you nef champions SOMETIMES. Since Rek'sai was released, she has seen nothing but nerfs and even after her pick rates have fallen and she is still getting nerfed. Sejuani was a little strong and you appropriately nerfed her, the continued to nerf items she uses. Kass was picked a lot and you nerfed him into the ground and left him there for months. And now we have Vayne, a very strong champ who everybody seems to complain about, and you are so reluctant to nerf her. What makes you guys decide to nerf a champ or nah?

Lysdexic1Aug 30, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand how you nef champions SOMETIMES. Since Rek'sai was released, she has seen nothing but nerfs and even after her pick rates have fallen and she is still getting nerfed. Sejuani was a little strong and you appropriately nerfed her, the continued to nerf items she uses. Kass was picked a lot and you nerfed him into the ground and left him there for months. And now we have Vayne, a very strong champ who everybody seems to complain about, and you are so reluctant to nerf her. What makes you guys decide to nerf a champ or nah?

The problem is, everyone complains about whichever champion is strongest at a given time. The world was clamoring for Kassadin nerfs when he was on top, Rek'sai nerfs when she dominated the jungle, and Sej buffs when she was just the unstoppable juggernaut wrecking face. Everyone complains about them every time and then as you did, complain to Riot about not nerfing them the very instant you want them nerfed. Half of the time it isn't the specific champion that is overpowered, but the current circumstances letting them flourish. Right now we see a lot of tanks and the juggernauts, so someone with %hp shred is bound to be considered strong. This is ALSO why people start complaining about specific champions after they're seen played in the LCS. The LCS picks up champions that can counter the current meta, leading to them creating a lot of these "overpowered" champion crazes. Let Riot do what THEY feel is best for this, because they have seen all of this before.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 30, 20158 votes

A variety of factors come into play, but we should be more consistent. And if we feel like we are, we should be more transparent. I'm not currently a member of the balance team specifically, so often the best I feel I can do as far as communicating with players on the forums goes is answering questions I know the answer to or have specifically asked about. This is why when it comes to things that are closer to my specific team (Champion Updates), I feel like I can give more concrete responses.

CasterGilgameshAug 30, 20152 votes

wait wat...so updates have a different team? how does that even work do the balance teams just focus on the numbers aspect of the kit and you focus on the actual game play and function?

OrangesilkAug 31, 20152 votes

Which is why monstruosities like the Garen/Skarner/Morde/Fiora reworks are allowed to run rampant destroying all semblance of game balance. They are wonderful concepts, the champion update team is awesome. But they are awfully balanced, because we all know and hate Riots balance team.

CasterGilgameshAug 31, 20152 votes

i really dislike riots balance team since they make everything weaker instead of stronger.when new concepts and new mechanics are introduced instead of making the other ways of playing stronger they just make the new thing weaker

Ariel the CruelSep 2, 20153 votes

That's actually intentional. Morello (or was it Ryze?) talked about this WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back when. They prefer to nerf rather then buff to minimize power creep. Compare overall power in league to mobility. Riot's response to mobility has been to provide more mobility, which has resulted in an exponential mobility sprint. This has resulted in older champions that are simply incapable of keeping with with modern champions because they were designed to handle lower levels of overall mobility. When you look at overall power though, the nerf cycle has allowed old champions (hi pre-rework Ashe) to remain relevant in modern teams even if they are no longer "strong". If Riot were to perscribe to a buff cycle, we would have more champions more often that are jsut flat-out bad or useless by modern standards.

VantoothAug 30, 20155 votes

If you acknowledge she's on the strong side of things, any plan on tuning her down one way or another?

DurzakaAug 29, 201511 votes

Her early game IS weak. The problem is there is literally no one bot lane who can take advantage of it anymore. So she can wait till 6, get her ult, get a kill, and suddenly she snowballs out of control.

She hasnt been buffed at all recently. The problem is all of the really strong lane bullies that kept Vayne in check bot lane have been systematically nerfed over the last year or so.

AtheosisXAug 29, 201527 votes

If there is no one who can take advantage of it it's not weak. Weakness and strength in this game is a relative concept.

GigahappytownAug 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Her early game IS weak. The problem is there is literally no one bot lane who can take advantage of it anymore. So she can wait till 6, get her ult, get a kill, and suddenly she snowballs out of control.

She hasnt been buffed at all recently. The problem is all of the really strong lane bullies that kept Vayne in check bot lane have been systematically nerfed over the last year or so.

no its not she just plays safe and outscales you xd she is the easiest marksman because you have to be retarded to die in lane as her and is completely right click reliant with no form of skillshots or difficult to use abilitys

DurzakaAug 29, 20158 votes

Playing safe does not mean she is strong in lane.

Literally anyone in the game can play safe in lane.

The problem is literally no ADC that exists that can punish a Vayne trying to play safe anymore.

The Yetii RiderAug 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Her early game IS weak. The problem is there is literally no one bot lane who can take advantage of it anymore. So she can wait till 6, get her ult, get a kill, and suddenly she snowballs out of control.

She hasnt been buffed at all recently. The problem is all of the really strong lane bullies that kept Vayne in check bot lane have been systematically nerfed over the last year or so.

"Hasn't been buffed at all recently"

No, just a few patches ago Riot buffs Blade of the Ruined King. People who say Vayne hasn't been changed haven't been reading the patch notes.

DurzakaAug 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Hasn't been buffed at all recently"

No, just a few patches ago Riot buffs Blade of the Ruined King. People who say Vayne hasn't been changed haven't been reading the patch notes.

V5.10:

Ranged increased to 550 from 450.

V5.8:

New recipe: Recurve Bow item.png Recurve Bow + Bilgewater Cutlass item.png Bilgewater Cutlass + 700 Gold = 3200 Gold
    Old recipe: Dagger item.png Dagger + Dagger item.png Dagger + Bilgewater Cutlass item.png Bilgewater Cutlass + 900 Gold = 3200 Gold 
Passive's on-hit effect now benefits from life steal.
Passive minimum damage cap increased to 10 from 3.

That is the extent of BotRKs change log over the last year.

But please, do tell me how it got so buffed.

The buff youre thinking of happened well over a year ago now. And Vayne clearly wasnt a problem then.

junglerboy16Aug 30, 20158 votes

The on-hit benefiting from lifesteal is to put it lightly, HUGE. That drastically improves her dueling power since she can sustain that much better in a fight. this isn't the biggest buff on it's own, but it is strong enough to start pushing her over the top.

The build path change was also a major buff since there is no point now where forcing her to back from lane is detrimental to her build. before if you forced her out of lane and she didn't have 900 gold for the BotRK recipe, she would come back and be totally screwed for the next several minutes, which often had game long implications for her snowballing and general power curve. Now, no matter when you force her back, she is almost 100% guaranteed to be able to build at least another component of her BotRK along the way since no individual purchase to get the item exceeds 700, and Recurve bow is a decent stand alone item now.

Lastly, the range on the active is a pretty huge buff for Vayne since it means it is even harder to fight her either trying to escape or stick to her. They also buffed the range of cutlass, so it has this safety and sticking power even earlier as well.

These buffs combined with the overall strength of the item to begin with and its rather broken synergy with her kit are what pushed her over the edge in the past few months.

alfavhunterAug 29, 201511 votes

Let's also not forget that BotRK made her "early" game much stronger than before the item was introduced

She can now complete one item and be relavent, before that item was made she needed 3-4

junglerboy16Aug 30, 201511 votes

Vayne isn't broken as hell, item 3153 is broken as hell and breaks her.

Nerf BotRK and you kill two birds with one stone, Vayne loses her OP item, and Devourer junglers get toned back from their crazy 2 item powerspike (because we all know that the only devourer junglers that are actually broken are just the ones that use BotRK for the double % HP damage).

SlampieceHawkeAug 30, 20152 votes

This right here. I've pointed this out over and over again, yet it seems like no one catches onto it. Vayne hasn't even received any changes at all, only botrk has. Sated isn't OP, or rather it is OP because it synergizes so well with that stupidly OP botrk. Every sated user rushes botrk. Hydra weapons synergize nowhere near as much. item 3153 needs a nerf. I'm not saying to nerf it into the grave, but maybe start out w/ maybe a 6% health bonus. The problem with botrk is so obvious it's not even funny. Sated jg's are strong and Vayne is strong. Connect the freaking dots already people. Get behind the cause. Come together and demand item 3153 nerfs be a consideration. Seek justice! Unite!

SerlthreeAug 30, 20153 votes

This^ The only problem is ww can easily compansate with hydra+wits end+ stinger

The Yetii RiderAug 29, 201510 votes

Riot buffed Lucian and will buff Draven next patch and they're looking at MF after Worlds.

The Draven buffs are mostly minor but they will have the effect of inflating his pick rate as people try him out. Then he goes against Vayne, beats her, Vayne's win rate drops and people think she's falling out of favor.

Bam, meta stabilized with insignificant buffs and no nerfs.

Silents429Aug 29, 20151 votes

And then everyone thinks Draven is broken and overpowered.

The cycle continues.

SulghunterAug 29, 20152 votes

At least with Draven, he basically signals where he's going to go, making skillshot cc easier to land.

junglerboy16Aug 30, 20154 votes

Imagine if the gave Kalista a little indicator for where her hop was going to land, that would make me enjoy this game SOOO much more...

Count ZubatAug 29, 20157 votes

Twitch is weak adc early game. Kog is weak adc early game. But Vayne? Sure, she might not have the best killing potential early on, but besides that, she is one of the safest adcs with low cd dash and self peel. Vayne just needs to farm for BotrK, from then on, if Vayne player knows what to do, it's GG.

NimbaAug 29, 20153 votes

52% win rate needs to be toned down?

alfavhunterAug 29, 201530 votes

{quoted}

52% win rate needs to be toned down?

With the lvl of pick rate from noobs playing her still being successful, yes

Her early game was, I repeat, WAS weak compared to other ADC, but those ADC have been nerfed, ez used to trash her in lane due to her mana issues restricting her from spamming her abilities, not any more I see vaynes spamming tumble in lane to CS now, let alone harass and evade/engage

They could easily tone her down for early game by changing how expensive tumble is or toning down her early mana regen then buffing her growth stat on it

Vayne used to have sustain issues for hp and mana, now with LS her hp sustain is fine, and with mana being as it is for her she has no more mana issues compared to say S2-3

On top of how easy her sustain has become the other ADC that would trash her early have been nerfed, more options for supports have also changed the play field for vayne, a braum can let vayne fight without being hit back, a Nami can heal her and buff her damage, give her slows, and CC

While alistar could do this he is much more mana intensive in his heal than Nami and it heals for less, soraka has also seen changes as well as Janna (both sustain/disengage supports have become noticeably better through changes to their kits and other supports)

Overall bot lane has changed A LOT compared to what it was 2 seasons ago, for both ADC and supports

NimbaAug 29, 20153 votes

"On top of how easy her sustain has become the other ADC that would trash her early have been nerfed"

If other adcs that could bully her were buffed, would there be a 52% win rate? If new Vaynes had something to go against other than Sivir who Vayne dumpsters or Jinx who Vayne also dumpsters, would there even be an issue?

I Main SwainAug 29, 201515 votes

#BRINGBACK Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven

RysophageAug 30, 20154 votes

lol u think vayne dumpters jinx ur a bad jinx

SaixosAug 29, 20152 votes

With the lvl of pick rate from noobs playing her still being successful, yes

Look at the playerbase experience distribution chart. Over 50% of Vayne players have over 50 games of experience with her, and over 75% have over 15 games of experience. Riot views a 52% winrate at 30 games played to be balanced for a champion. Vayne doesn't have lots of noobs picking her, she has a massive playerbase of experienced players.

I Main SwainAug 29, 20154 votes

just because she has a lot of experienced players picking her doesnt mean she doesnt have many noobs picking her. when i first played her, i had absolutely no clue what i was doing. didn't know what to max, didnt know what to build (wound up maxing my silver bolts). i still got pretty dang fed despite how little i knew.

btw, 15 games isnt enough to say you're very experienced with them. just enough to say you arent noob