What did Kayle rework accomplish ?

option paralysis·Apr 22, 2019·58 votes·16,965 views

I was so pumped for her rework, I thought I was gonna buy aether wing kayle skin and just spam her, but they didn't make anything better. Just worse and more annoying. Melee early lvls, you can't do anything, can't AA during ult like before and you just die early game. She's even less interactive in lane than the old Kayle. Even playing her is more boring than before. You literally just sit and cs. She's harder to balance, she has a fuckin 58-60% in rate in games going past 30 mins.+ Like the fuck. I don't enjoy playing a champ, where you feel like you're doing something only after lvl 11 or 20 mins+, basically boring yourself to death for 20 mins for that one ray of sunshine that you can right click enemy team when you get some items. I know she's a "late game champ", but other late game champs aren't boring and useless until then.

77 Comments

FloupiApr 22, 201923 votes

I just don't understand why riot thinks it's unhealthy to stat-check as a melee champ but keeps making stat-check ranged champs

Every champion should be able to FAIL something in their kit, otherwise you get that kind of low counterplay shit Jax MasterYi Tryndamere (melee stat-check) Kayle Vayne KogMaw (ranged stat-check) Kassadin Rengar (assassin stat-check) Sona Lulu (support stat-check)

Lil Homie bustaApr 22, 201910 votes

A champion's main source of power should always depend on playerskill and counterplay (e.g Urgot's ult, Xerath's ult, Yasuo's tornado, Aatrox's Q, etc). Those who failed to attend this design rule usually ends up being what people call 'statchecky' (Jax, Nasus, Master Yi), champions who give their enemy no agency at all besides 'hitting harder'.

DroxstarApr 22, 201916 votes

While I agree, that the first 17-20 Minutes are extremely boring as Kayle I don't think the rework is completely bad. She has a "weak early" but if don't abuse her, she + klepto are going to punish you for not killing her the moment she isn't under her turret. I like the new kayle but I think her lvl 6 and lvl 11 passive powers should be switched. The ranged gives you more trading potencial but your wave clear still sucks hard so you can get shoved in but actually defend yourself properly in lane.

CevradApr 22, 20195 votes

Klepto + Time Warp stops the weak early game.

RagnaveilApr 22, 20194 votes

You are also forgetting Biscuits.

Spicy RiceApr 23, 20192 votes

Goddamn I hate timewarp.

When combined with corrupting, it's basically red pot first item all over again.

Except in this case, they get it 3 times, and it regens every time they go to fountain

HollowMimicApr 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

While I agree, that the first 17-20 Minutes are extremely boring as Kayle I don't think the rework is completely bad. She has a "weak early" but if don't abuse her, she + klepto are going to punish you for not killing her the moment she isn't under her turret. I like the new kayle but I think her lvl 6 and lvl 11 passive powers should be switched. The ranged gives you more trading potencial but your wave clear still sucks hard so you can get shoved in but actually defend yourself properly in lane.

Thank you. Couldn't have asked for a better explanation to this obvious suggestion

VelasanApr 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

While I agree, that the first 17-20 Minutes are extremely boring as Kayle I don't think the rework is completely bad. She has a "weak early" but if don't abuse her, she + klepto are going to punish you for not killing her the moment she isn't under her turret. I like the new kayle but I think her lvl 6 and lvl 11 passive powers should be switched. The ranged gives you more trading potencial but your wave clear still sucks hard so you can get shoved in but actually defend yourself properly in lane.

Completely agree. Have her become ranged at level 6, but scale up into better wave clear and team fighting at the other ranks.

ThingamajigApr 22, 201910 votes

well the design space for kayle was to keep her late game monster power but give her clear weakness early game pre rework kayle had a massive win rate at 3+ items but also hard won most lanes due to her shoving power so riot just nerfed her to being unfun to play this kayle is actually fun to play the problem i think is her doing true damage late game this makes tanks paper against her and squishies fall over if she can click them for 1-2 seconds

The ult itself is a better ult than before because it silences her for 2 seconds but the true damage is just extremely powerful

JuiceBoxPApr 22, 20193 votes

{quoted}

well the design space for kayle was to keep her late game monster power but give her clear weakness early game

You know, most late game hypercarries have (shocker) really good late game. You know what they don't have? a bad early game.

riven can pretty much 1vs2 at level 3 and 1vs3 at level 6

ThingamajigApr 22, 20198 votes

[deleted]

JuiceBoxPApr 22, 201911 votes

Riven? not a late game hypercarry? Yeah you're probably right...

She's an Every-stage-of-the-game-hyper-carry

Yes, tell me senpai, how do you abuse riven's weaknesses? Her only weakness is the player behind the champion. If he's a mental r%%%%% you're probably gonna beat him, otherwise no

ThingamajigApr 22, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Riven? not a late game hypercarry? Yeah you're probably right...

She's an Every-stage-of-the-game-hyper-carry

you have no concept of what a hyper carry is

JuiceBoxPApr 22, 201915 votes

Hypercarry is someone who can pretty much 1vs5 late game Tryndamere Twitch Kayle Jax Vayne

ThingamajigApr 22, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Hypercarry is someone who can pretty much 1vs5 late game

no that is not what a hyper carry does only 3 of the champions you imaged are hyper carries

Z3SleeperApr 22, 20199 votes

Hypercarry by design intent and hypercarry in actuality are two different things.

In actuality, all of those (cept Tryn) are hypercarries, even if Riot doesn't intend them to be (which, btw, they were all designed to be in the first place, including Tryn).

Jax w/ 2 items + Spear. Vayne with Bork/Rage. Kayle at level 11+. Twitch with Runaans.

Essentially a hypercarry is someone who has high potential to solo carry a game. Riven fits in there.

ThingamajigApr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Hypercarry by design intent and hypercarry in actuality are two different things.

In actuality, all of those (cept Tryn) are hypercarries, even if Riot doesn't intend them to be (which, btw, they were all designed to be in the first place, including Tryn).

Jax w/ 2 items + Spear. Vayne with Bork/Rage. Kayle at level 11+. Twitch with Runaans.

Essentially a hypercarry is someone who has high potential to solo carry a game. Riven fits in there.

current balance of champions items and state of game doesn't determine whether a champion is a hyper carry

a hyper carry is a Massive dps potential but requires support or they blowup

Riven doesnt blow up Jax doesn't blow up

Ashe is a hyper carry with a support Jinx is a hyper carry with a support Yi is a hyper carry with a support Azir is a hyper carry with a front line Jax and Riven technically function as a front line Them being currently too strong doesn't mean they are hyper carries Tryndamere is a Hyper Carry as much as Nasus is

Essentially a hyper carry isn't that Because every champion has a potential to 1v5 Trundle with Triforce and steraks can essentially 1v5 if there is a sejuani in the enemy team does that mean that trundle is a hyper carry? hell no

Don't confuse power potential and a Hyper Carry

Devilangel6161Apr 22, 20195 votes

tristana is a hypercarry with minimal support, highest/second highest AA range at lvl 18, as steroid, crit marksman, resets tonnes of DPS. She is a true hyper carry. kog Maw is a hyper carry, he scales super hard into late game.

Z3SleeperApr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

current balance of champions items and state of game doesn't determine whether a champion is a hyper carry

That's exactly what determines a hypercarry.

You think Ashe would still be a hypercarry if she gets nerfed to oblivion and has a terrible meta item path? No. Hypercarry status is determined by whether or not a champion can hypercarry. Thus: "hypercarry".

{quoted}

Trundle with Triforce and steraks can essentially 1v5 if there is a sejuani in the enemy team does that mean that trundle is a hyper carry?

Yes. That would be the literal definition of Trundle being a hypercarry.

ThingamajigApr 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's exactly what determines a hypercarry.

You think Ashe would still be a hypercarry if she gets nerfed to oblivion and has a terrible meta item path? No. Hypercarry status is determined by whether or not a champion can hypercarry. Thus: "hypercarry".

Yes. That would be the literal definition of Trundle being a hypercarry.

your ignorance is giving me a headache

Z3SleeperApr 22, 20192 votes

As does your off-brand definition of a hypercarry.

To get you up to speed with everyone else's definition though, here's how we define a hypercarry (taken from a good old forum post 7 years ago):

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1997862

Hyper Carry: Pretty much 1v5'ing and winning single handedly

General consensus is that there are no "true hypercarries" in league but we simply call them hypercarries to denote them being even stronger than a hard carry.

Mind you back then we were locked hard into the "ADC will become an absolute monster late game" meta, thus all the comments pointing towards an ADC typically with a support/tank (which is typically how ADC hypercarrying works). But even then we still had things like Morde, Vlad and Ryze who were hypercarries all on their own.

Spicy RiceApr 23, 20191 votes

A hyper carry is a champ who can carry a game with minimal support, and who at 6 items, can basically steam roll an opposing team with 6 items.

SaezioApr 22, 20192 votes

Riven is not a hyper-carry, she is just stupidly broken OP at the moment.

In a late game 5v5 teamfight, riven can't do much, unless the enemy team forgot to ward their flanks or something. In which case a full ap malphite should be considered a late game hypercarry too. xD

Z3SleeperApr 22, 20191 votes

Ever watch AdrianRiven or Boxbox?

SaezioApr 22, 20192 votes

I am not saying riven is balanced, she is the strongest (sorry vayne you second) champion at the moment. That doesn't make her a hypercarry. At least it shouldn't. Now, the fact that she can instastack 5 conq + DD so she can survive teamfights in the late game doesn't say much other than she needs nerfs, and that tanks are almost extinct from today's LoL outside pro play.

Design-wise Riven is supposed to be falling off late game, hard.

P.S. does BRNA still play? Any idea?

Z3SleeperApr 22, 20191 votes

I actually don’t know who that is sorry haha

SaezioApr 22, 20192 votes

BestRivenNA

He used to be one of the top 2-3 rivens around NA back in season 2. But I don't watch much league videos anymore. Only stoned with a specific group of friends and usually its "Wood elo adventures" or something.

Ðeath XIIIApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Essentially a hypercarry is someone who has high potential to solo carry a game. Riven fits in there.

No, a hypercarry is somebody who takes items and uses them better than everybody else. As they get closer to full build their winrate dramatically starts to go up because them having 3-5 items is much better than another character having the same items. Just saying a champion is good at getting ahead and closing a game doesn't make them a hyper carry lol.

Z3SleeperApr 23, 20191 votes

Where is everyone getting these definitions from?

A hyper carry is someone who can "hyper" carry (extreme carry potential). That's it.

What you're thinking of is a hyper-scaling champion -- which is a champion with extreme scaling potential -- which typically also happen to be hyper carries, but they are not one and the same.

MoonscourgeApr 22, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Riven? not a late game hypercarry? Yeah you're probably right...

She's an Every-stage-of-the-game-hyper-carry

Yes, tell me senpai, how do you abuse riven's weaknesses? Her only weakness is the player behind the champion. If he's a mental r%%%%% you're probably gonna beat him, otherwise no

People who just exaggerate with every sentence are much less likely to be taken seriously ever after..

Minimac2000Apr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

except riven isn't a late game champion? and isn't a hyper carry?

and every hyper carry has a very abuseable early game the fact that they don't fall over because you looked at them in your silver game doesn't mean they are good early game (i actually wrote that before looking up your account) holy shit does anyone that isn't silver complain on these boards about balance

Guess you could say your posts are in Vayne bc she disproves everything you just said...

Abusable, sure by all of 1 adc, weak? Yeah, no.

ThingamajigApr 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Guess you could say your posts are in bc she disproves everything you just said...

Abusable, sure by all of 1 adc, weak? Yeah, no.

try in english now because i couldn't understand anything

Minimac2000Apr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

try in english now because i couldn't understand anything

Try learning English. Vayne is a pun on vain

macspamApr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

well the design space for kayle was to keep her late game monster power but give her clear weakness early game

sure, kayle was strong late game but she wasn't the "alpha" late game champ, her strength was balanced in early game as well because, as you say, her pushing power. She was more akin to tryndamere than nasus.

Getting to late game without your team inting in Solo Q is such a crap shoot, Playing champs that aren't hard-cucked early game is just more fun and easier to win. And it's not like old Kayle had a huge win rate either.

The only change I like is turning her Q into a skillshot, trading reliability for power.

ThingamajigApr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

sure, kayle was strong late game but she wasn't the "alpha" late game champ, her strength was balanced in early game as well because, as you say, her pushing power. She was more akin to tryndamere than nasus.

Getting to late game without your team inting in Solo Q is such a crap shoot, Playing champs that aren't hard-cucked early game is just more fun and easier to win. And it's not like old Kayle had a huge win rate either.

The only change I like is turning her Q into a skillshot, trading reliability for power.

the old kayle didn't have a huge win rate because she lost the majority of her games during mid game she had good early game and one of the best late games and a non existent mid game

macspamApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

the old kayle didn't have a huge win rate because she lost the majority of her games during mid game she had good early game and one of the best late games and a non existent mid game

I played a lot of Kayle, got mastery 7 with her, but never felt her late game was quite as OP as people made her out to be. Actually I stopped playing her at a certain point because I didn't feel like I was making as big an impact as I wanted to. Maybe it's because I wasn't that good at her. She was a somewhat hard champion to play, because she was immobile and built straight attack speed so you had to do a lot of clicking. I can't say how much of this is true for the new Kayle, since I've hardly played her, but given that Gunblade is the recommended first item now it seems like attack speed is being de-emphasized. Anyway, I never really felt like she was better than most any other marksman late game. Actually often times I felt like her enchanter qualities (heal and R) produced greater impact in team fights.

ThingamajigApr 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I played a lot of Kayle, got mastery 7 with her, but never felt her late game was quite as OP as people made her out to be. Actually I stopped playing her at a certain point because I didn't feel like I was making as big an impact as I wanted to. Maybe it's because I wasn't that good at her. She was a somewhat hard champion to play, because she was immobile and built straight attack speed so you had to do a lot of clicking. I can't say how much of this is true for the new Kayle, since I've hardly played her, but given that Gunblade is the recommended first item now it seems like attack speed is being de-emphasized. Anyway, I never really felt like she was better than most any other marksman late game. Actually often times I felt like her enchanter qualities (heal and R) produced greater impact in team fights.

That is because new kayle doesn't benefit as much from atk speed as before early levels Atk speed becomes a good stat on her after lvl 11 so before that gunblade gives her dueling ability

Old kayle was a monster at 3 items honestly when ever i played her i would get a random triple or more just because people don't expect to get instantly melted and my team is always : well that is late game kayle for you...

The champ was really strong if it was ahead or even by 3 items but was losing most of her games before getting those 3 items or still being relevant by the time she got them

ie she was terrible even though her laning was good and her late game was massive the most successful kayles ive seen being played completely tunnel visioned on 10cs/min even if they had to die for a wave 0/5 and still being the most valuable target to kill...

this kayle is similar but they transfered her early game power to mid game power and gave her a better q and e the ult is shit to use but i guess it has its moments

EphixusApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

when it comes to true damage you know champion or rework will be uber fkd up.

ThingamajigApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

when it comes to true damage you know champion or rework will be uber fkd up.

I hope next season they do a pass on true and % damages i dislike the design direction for every champion to have ways of dealing with every scenario Sylas and Neeko were good designs in this regard so i want them to continue in this path but the other champions and sources need to be looked at there is hardly a reason to play a tank unless you want an initiation champion and imo thats only 1/4th of what a tank provides to a team

EphixusApr 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I hope next season they do a pass on true and % damages i dislike the design direction for every champion to have ways of dealing with every scenario Sylas and Neeko were good designs in this regard so i want them to continue in this path but the other champions and sources need to be looked at there is hardly a reason to play a tank unless you want an initiation champion and imo thats only 1/4th of what a tank provides to a team

When my favourite top champ Irelia got reworked and I saw the abilities actually I liked it, but their reworks makes the balance complicated or they address issues wrong way.

ThingamajigApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

When my favourite top champ Irelia got reworked and I saw the abilities actually I liked it, but their reworks makes the balance complicated or they address issues wrong way.

well they wanted her to have ways of playing if her q got interrupted but as she is now she isn't getting punished for missing her q reset i mean only if you have distance and can punish immediately sure but if she misses her e and r she can still q you and beat your ass and have her q again in 5 seconds to reset from you

cd nerfs is what she needs so that if she messes up she can feel it and as far as im watching good irelias they just throw their abilities on cd and if they hit thats great if they miss they hardly care

Linna ExcelApr 22, 20197 votes

It accomplished riot's primary secret goal: rage on the forums. Even her new story pissed people off because riot made her insane.

Honestly though, I'm not sure what riot was aiming for in part because I don't think modern design philosophy is that great. It seems like riot is forgetting counterplay. Kayle can't counterplay others early and other champs can't counter-play her late. Now the live balance team is forced to pick up the design team's slack once again.

Ambitious MinnowApr 22, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILarZV0q,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-04-22T15:59:20.519+0000)

It accomplished riot's primary secret goal: rage on the forums. Even her new story pissed people off because riot made her insane.

Honestly though, I'm not sure what riot was aiming for in part because I don't think modern design philosophy is that great. It seems like riot is forgetting counterplay. Kayle can't counterplay others early and other champs can't counter-play her late. Now the live balance team is forced to pick up the design team's slack once again.

This. You should need to have done something right in order to be carrying early or late game, not just automatcially curb stomp because time of game. The worst part is how the Kayle auto mows down even baron minions? Was playing a game a couple days ago where we were just stomping the heck out of the other team, jg, every lane, no probs. We take baron, it's past 25 minutes, Kayle walks up to their turret and just auto's away all the buffed baron minions in moments, team can't press in, she has backup, * and can become invincible on top all other stuff???*, so we get backed off turret, can't take, team slowly falls apart from there and Kayle wins. Lamest game I've seen in forever.

DracocrashApr 22, 20196 votes

Change for the sake of change.

Maxim3366Apr 22, 20192 votes

Are you saying a shifting meta in a moba is not good?

DracocrashApr 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Are you saying a shifting meta in a moba is not good?

I never drew a conclusion, that's for you to decide.

KídáApr 22, 20194 votes

It made me stop playing kayle. She was my second most played champion and I loved to play her against Yasuo and that went to sh*t

Neptunia xoxoApr 22, 20194 votes

The rework just shows how god awful the feeling of playing against a hyper carry is. If you miss 1 CC on someone like Kayle or Yi or Yasuo or Vayne ect they will run over you and during mid / late game they can shred you instantly so you really don't have much time to react or to try and counter them with most champions / abilities... like if a Yi runs at someone with rageblade and ult up he will delete them or at least kill them within around 2 seconds giving you so much less time to be able to do anything about it like I had so many games where a Kayle can get 4 autos off within 1.3seconds and kill me even if we are both the same level and same amount of items.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that hyper carries rely on dodging CC in order to pop off which as we all know is a terrible design flaw since you can build things like Qss or these champions simply have too much damage allowing them to kill you before you can CC them or they have 'outplay' abilities like Yi Q or Yasuo W or Kayle R or Vayne Q with high movement speed and stealth and of course items like Qss.