Did Riot Acknowledged that tank Meta is the best by far?

doublelift fg·Apr 17, 2015·45 votes·4,292 views

most tremendous diversity ever, even yorick is back.

134 Comments

disregardableApr 17, 20155 votes

And Soraka, Tristana, Zilean, Syndra, Katarina, Akali, Khazix, and Rengar all got nerfed out of the meta. Let's be clear, diversity was not increased, it was shifted.

doublelift fgApr 17, 201511 votes

soraka was never present since her middlane nerf, zilean was never present too since his passive nerf

disregardableApr 17, 20154 votes

Zilean's pick rate was low, but his win rate was high. He was extremely strong before his stupid nerfwork. Not sure what you're referring to by "Soraka's mid lane nerf". She was very strong until patch 4.21, otherwise known as the end of season 4/beginning of season 5, where she was gutted.

Voluug13Apr 17, 20152 votes

This. The nerfshot rework shoved Zilean out of Midlane and into a support role he is barely decent with perfect play.

It was done mainly because his low range point and click harass was a problem fo Zed.

Baron of BreadApr 17, 20159 votes

Actually, that 700 range point-and-click nuking was a problem for everyone, especially bot laners. If you got anywhere near Zilean he would double bomb you and you would walk out of there getting chunked just so you could farm. There was nothing you could do unless you were Leona and he didn't just speed up and dodge your Zenith Blade.

He was a great example of what Riot deems no counterplay.

Voluug13Apr 18, 20154 votes

The problem with your argument is that Zilean flat out doesnt work with the gold budget of a support. Not only he needs several items to function without going OoM after a little while, but earlygame he goes OoM the moment he tries to hard poke the enemy. Sustain supports laugh at him. They can heal/shield the bombs with more mana efficiency that Zilean can bomb them, and then Zilean goes OoM. As a support he needed the typical support items plus tear and chalice. Even then he had no hard CC and subpar utility compared to every other support like Leona, Sona, Soraka and even Taric. Support Morgana basically out mana'es him with Black Shield, specially early.

He cant go top because he cant deal with toplane with those mana costs.

No, the real reason he was reworked is that he was screwing hypermobile assasins in midlane. Xerath, Lux and Ziggs laugh at Zilean Mid while he tries to get close to Q them. Also, Chronoshift was basically ''Fuck U Zed'', The Ult.

If at any moment he was OP or broken in Bot lane, that certainly didnt reflect in his pickrate and winrate.

Baron of BreadApr 18, 20152 votes

It's not that he was OP. I wasn't trying to say that, and if you thought I was then my bad.

I was saying he was broken. He was a walking zone of damage; if you got near him you were guaranteed to get a bomb on you if he had mana. The amount of point-and-click damage from a decent range that he brought and could use frequently was a bad design. He had a broken design, in that the bomb damage had to be balanced on the tip of a pin. Any small disturbance could make it ridiculous or terrible, and by extension Zilean would become very strong or very weak.

Yes, his ult is a big middle finger to assassins (Zed more than others). But, if you look closely, his ult is still mostly the same. They changed what they thought the problem was, which was the "you got near me so you take a lot of damage" aspect of his play.

Oh, and I think you underestimated his effectiveness on a support's budget. Especially since he also had a 600 range auto attack so if he ran out of mana before you ran out of health he could still safely auto you.

Voluug13Apr 18, 20151 votes

Wow, so Zilean paid the price for being a counterpick and having counterpicks.

What is this game now, seriously.

Baron of BreadApr 18, 20152 votes

If he was paying for being a counterpick and having counterpicks, then why would they leave everything in his kit that lets him do that? He can still be a terrible nuisance to Zed, just drop a bomb on down and Zed can't get close without taking tons of damage. You still can just save anyone he tries to kill with your ult.

The difference is that now Zilean doesn't just feel terrible to lane against (especially in bot lane). You feel like there is something you can do about him now that he isn't just a ridiculous damage zone. He can still zone you away with his bombs, but you can avoid them and their AoE instead of just hiding under your turret and hoping he doesn't put one on you.

UPfreelyApr 18, 20157 votes

just item 3140 item 3222 item 3157 his bombs it works for zed, why not him. anyone else find it amusing a couple zed counters are magic resist items? /eyeroll

DemiluniSApr 18, 20153 votes

are you going to waste an item active to remove something that Zilean gonna apply on you 3 seconds later? And as far as I remember, you don't get those items until later into the game, and late game his damage falls of anyway

UPfreelyApr 18, 20152 votes

i wasn't being entirely serious, zed's ult can have a lower cd than all of those items, its just as problematic. i know zilean can be frustrating to play against but he also has the caveat of being one of the squishiest champions in the game and his range doesn't exactly provide much safety.

AbyssphereApr 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEyAziav,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-17T15:59:07.325+0000)

Zilean's pick rate was low, but his win rate was high. He was extremely strong before his stupid nerfwork. Not sure what you're referring to by "Soraka's mid lane nerf". She was very strong until patch 4.21, otherwise known as the end of season 4/beginning of season 5, where she was gutted.

His win rate wasn't high at all. When his passive got nerfed his win rate sank right down to the low 40s and it never improved. It's actually higher now than it's been at any point since his passive was gutted.

disregardableApr 21, 20151 votes

This is completely false. I knew that because I've been rebelling against Zilean's nerf-work since it hit PBE, but until just now I didn't know any websites with stats older than 2 months ago. Lucky me, I found one.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/zilean

Winrate history for the past year:

May 2014-March 2015: Hovering between 49%-51% March 2015: Nerfwork hits live, winrate drops to below 40% April 2015: After CD buffs, winrate rises to 46.5%.

Over all: Nerfed from healthy win rate for over a year to losing significantly more than average.

SnugglePuggle94Apr 17, 201522 votes

If you think Kat was nerfed out of the meta since the last two patches, think again. It was just a small nerf to her health. She is still the main ban in every draft game I am in.

Mikal PikalApr 17, 201518 votes

In my opinion kat is weaker in this meta since her biggest weakness is tankiness and CC, which is now very prevalent. She is still good though and certainty wasn't "nerfed out of the meta."

Meep ManApr 17, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEyAziav,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-17T15:54:26.511+0000)

And Soraka, Tristana, Zilean, Syndra, Katarina, Akali, Khazix, and Rengar all got nerfed out of the meta. Let's be clear, diversity was not increased, it was shifted.

Yeah, ok, the only one of those that died out was Kha'Zix and he was gone a while ago. Syndra is still here, just not "Yeah I saw her in LCS 5 times this week". Everyone else is still here.

ajwfApr 17, 20156 votes

Indirectly, Soraka got forced out due to her Heals being insignificant to tanks. Not that she was used much prior to the "You must be support" rework, but her heals don't scale tremendously well since it's a 60% ap ratio on a super squishy with no ability to get funds like other mages.

Akali was largely nerfed, too. Luden's Echo doesn't seem to be as helpful as DFG was for her.

As for Zilean... I'm still not sure if that rework was worth anything to him. Like, the AOE stun is cool and all, but his bombs don't do enough poke for a support who has been relegated to do nothing but support. I'd rather poke with something that required only ONE skillshot to hit to work, not two.

aaronconlinApr 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEyAziav,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-17T15:54:26.511+0000)

And Zilean, Khazix, and Rengar all got nerfed out of the meta. Let's be clear, diversity was not increased, it was shifted.

Fixed

junglerboy16Apr 17, 20152 votes

Rengar is still a priority pick over in the LPL, and is what would be considered balanced, if a little snowbally and team reliant.

Voluug13Apr 18, 20151 votes

Even then, Zilean wasnt shoved out of the meta because of tank meta, he was shoved out of the meta because his nerfshot rework destroyed his midlane viability for a very unreliable and unfulfilling support role he is subpar at. The nerfwork only had the bad luck of happening at the same time.

Basically the only thing they did was add a unreliable, ridiculously impractical stun tht in League of Mobility is terribad, at the cost of Q power and reliability and lategame permahaste/slow.

DemiluniSApr 18, 20152 votes

Basically the only thing they did was adding couterplay

FTFY

Voluug13Apr 18, 20151 votes

Zilean counterplay is the same as Zed's: Counterpick and counterbuild.

Guess which one got the crippling nerfwork.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20154 votes

lmao I see Tristana/Rengar frequently and Kat is pick or ban in high gold. She might not be able to faceroll E/R every time in fights but still assassinates ADCs, mages, supports and other assassins easily.

Now Kha, Soraka, Zilean and Akali truly are overnerfed.

disregardableApr 18, 20151 votes

I haven't seen Rengar or Trist in weeks. Kat is still picked, there's just no reason to pick her.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20151 votes

how about being able to assassinate the entire backline of your team in less than 3 seconds if you even make a tiny mistake in positioning and incredible snowballing?

disregardableApr 18, 20151 votes

lol what backline? Pretty much every game I've played the tanky champions charge in regardless of my existence, and they slaughter the enemy team/get slaughtered regardless of my existence.

A Caitlyn on my team got a Quadra kill today, and I was genuinely surprised.

Voluug13Apr 18, 20153 votes

The backline that consist of the Midlaner and ADC, and possibly support.

The tank meta only makes junglers and maybe some toplaners tanky.

The difference is that you now cant press ER to get an easy penta the moment they blew their CC. You have to actually think when and where jump.

BluePolarizerApr 20, 20151 votes

yeah, the horrors of getting mere triples on a good play rather than a penta.

DemiluniSApr 18, 20152 votes

the only reason you don't see soraka every game, is because morellonomicon exist. And in theory, soraka should rise again, since it takes longer to kill someone in a fight, so she can heal more during the fight. Zilean is absolutely fine too

Creamy SeamanApr 17, 20155 votes

The meta SHIFTED more squishies aren't playable anymore.

Voluug13Apr 17, 201532 votes

Actually, it isnt ''squishies'' its squishy killers.

squishy supports, adcs, squishy midlaners with tank killing capabilities like Cass and Velkoz are being seen more and more.

Its a wonderful meta this one. Less flashy assasins, more strategic picks.

Baron of BreadApr 17, 201511 votes

They should keep those squishy killers around to protect the tanks from the tank shredders. Then we get to have our League of Legends rock-paper-scissors!

junglerboy16Apr 17, 201511 votes

Well, they actually are still around in that role, they just show up less because they aren't freelo "pick me to auto-win" champions anymore. They still serve their role of assassinating squishies, now they just don't assassinate everyone.

JevelFaithfulApr 18, 20157 votes

So we got back to what the game should be?

grLKQ9ma0oApr 19, 20151 votes

"Strategy"...

You mean "Use your insane tank items to chase down people and brute force them to death while diving turrets and not caring"?

You mean "Building no damage, yet dealing shit tons of damage, meaning no tradeoffs"?

Voluug13Apr 19, 20151 votes

Says the Nidalee main.

No wonder you are so salty, they cut away your jungle freelo.

grLKQ9ma0oApr 20, 20151 votes

I played a lot more Nidalee top than I did jungle before the 5.3 changes that allowed her passive to root jungle monsters. I have about the same amount of Nidalee top and mid games as I do jungle.

But I'm glad you looked up all my match history. That's pretty cool of you.

I seriously don't think it takes strategy to take a Sejuani or Amumu and just running up into the team, hitting all your buttons and watching as they can't get away from you and can't kill you and just slowly burn to death.

At least with the assassin meta you had to be careful with the champions you jump in with. My MAIN champion is Kha'zix, mostly because I find him to be really engaging to play. I can't just jump in without making the decision about whether or not I would be able to get out, and if I miscalculated, I would pay for it.

Now, though, this calculation just isn't there, because I can't actually do any meaningful damage to anyone. Does it matter that a Gragas with cinderhulk is in isolation? No, because despite the fact that I have a 1000 damage isolation Q, his itemization allows him to have 200 armor and 4000 health, so it would take me at least 6 Qs to kill him, in which time his cinderhulk and high base damage deals more damage.

I can try using strategy with my champion to beat yours, but regardless of what my itemization is, I can't actually stop them when there isn't strong enough counter-itemization.

Joe DreddApr 17, 20154 votes

tank meta cancer

doublelift fgApr 17, 201536 votes

sry leblanc players but now you can't 100-0 everybody

DemiluniSApr 18, 20158 votes

Leblanc's role always was to kill squshies, and I don't even care if there are more tanks, you still have to kill the squshies

aaronconlinApr 17, 201522 votes

You can't 100-0 anyone by face rolling anymore? the horror

Kariu RenaApr 18, 20152 votes

tank 100-0 people with full tank build and gromp smite rofl more counteplay such fun w0w

aaronconlinApr 18, 20152 votes

item 3153 item 3035 Life steal and magic resist. If you're focusing the tank with your auto attacks and letting them kill you with Gromp buff, you're doing it wrong.