Ekko Completly Broke Riot's Philosophy

doublelift fg·May 29, 2015·120 votes·8,359 views

-no stun longer than 2 sec at least on a basic spells: Ekko's W -yasuo shield could absorb 690: he has 330+0.8 AP ratio it means he can reach 690 with 450 ap -veigar's R used to deal too much damage: Ekko's ulti damage: 500+1.3 AP -skarner used to permaslow it was toxic: meanwhile Ekko has his passive slowing for 3 sec, 2 sec slow with his Q and AA reset to apply his passive Did you smoke on the number? 150 shield on his w lvl 1, 330+0.8 500+1.3 damage

He also shows how you are bad at design, tons of mobility,durability,cc,utility like release yasuo.

147 Comments

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 201583 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VLBdyX8R,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-29T15:53:31.758+0000)

-no stun longer than 2 sec at least on a basic spells: Ekko's W

Veigar's E. And Veigar was recently reworked, so if that was part of their philosophy, it wouldn't have stuck around.

-yasuo shield could absorb 690: he has 330+0.8 AP ratio it means he can reach 690 with 450 ap

Which design philosophy does this break, exactly? Yasuo's old shield nerf happened because he could regenerate it within 2 seconds without using his ultimate.

-veigar's R used to deal too much damage: Ekko's ulti damage: 500+1.3 AP

Veigar's ultimate doesn't have awkward-as-hell targeting, and it also gains damage from his target's stats.

-skarner used to permaslow it was toxic: meanwhile Ekko has his passive slowing for 3 sec, 2 sec slow with his Q and AA reset to apply his passive

Ekko's passive has a static cooldown before it can affect the same target twice, much like Jarvan's passive or Udyr's Bear Stance.

Did you smoke on the number? 150 shield on his w lvl 1, 330+0.8 500+1.3 damage

This shield has a massively telegraphed delay, it takes him 3 seconds to actually get the shield. He couldn't use it to react to Karthus' ultimate, let alone normal team-fight damage.

He also shows how you are bad at design, tons of mobility,durability,cc,utility like release yasuo.

I'll agree that he's overtuned, but none of your points stick. Try again, this time using actual game design and balance arguments.

doublelift fgMay 29, 201510 votes

veigar E is much impossible to hit with unlike ekko's W, where you can tp back to the location yasuo old nerf happened because the shield was so damn high and he was pretty much unkillable, ekko can go to 800/900 hp shield did you even played ekko? you know where you're going to go the raduis is so damn high you just have to back off than TP when someone is near your shadow and combo him with Q+lichban congrat you dealt more damage than zed in 1.5 sec TO THE WHOLE TEAM even if it isn't a permaslow, his W+Q+Passive will prevent you from running from more than 7 seconds and don't let me tell you why it is aproblem

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 201544 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VLBdyX8R,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-29T17:02:54.226+0000)

veigar E is much impossible to hit with unlike ekko's W, where you can tp back to the location

Veigar's E has a 0.5-second delay. Ekko's W has a 3-second delay. Do the math.

yasuo old nerf happened because the shield was so damn high and he was pretty much unkillable, ekko can go to 800/900 hp shield

Because the shield was damn high, and because he could get 100% flow with 4 dashes back when his W granted bonus Flow.

Those issues combined were the reasons for that shield nerf.

did you even played ekko? you know where you're going to go the radius is so damn high you just have to back off than TP when someone is near your shadow and combo him with Q+lichban congrat you dealt more damage than zed in 1.5 sec TO THE WHOLE TEAM

If the whole team is stupid enough to walk right into Ekko's W sphere, maybe you should stop borrowing data from Cardboard V

even if it isn't a permaslow, his W+Q+Passive will prevent you from running from more than 7 seconds and don't let me tell you why it is a problem

You're supposed to explain the problem if you want anyone to take your argument seriously.

In any event, yes, Ekko can stick to a target. He was specifically built to do that. But what if his target fights back?

doublelift fgMay 29, 20155 votes

veigar E has 0.75 delay combined with 0.5 sec cast time, ekko can just cast the area on him go back and then tp to stun +shield+ 1500 damage

his target fights back? how do you fight back a dude who blink/dash/has % health damage,lichbane? did you see the spotlight or not?

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 201540 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VLBdyX8R,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-29T17:42:04.297+0000)

veigar E has 0.75 delay combined with 0.5 sec cast time, ekko can just cast the area on him go back and then tp to stun +shield+ 1500 damage

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. 0.25 casting delay, 0.5 second delay on the wall. A total 0.75 seconds delay.

And, yes, Ekko can telegraph a massive AoE and blink back into it. Again, if the team is dumb enough to walk straight into the AoE when they can see the damn thing, they're bad and deserve what they get.

his target fights back? how do you fight back a dude who blink/dash/has % health damage,lichbane? did you see the spotlight or not?

How do you fight back? Simple. You fight back.

I don't care. I saw the spotlight. I know how Ekko works. And that means I can use that to work around his strengths, and fight against him. Because I'm not fucking stupid.

The SoulforgedMay 29, 20152 votes

With Ekko's e, anything inside the bubble gets the stun. With Veigar stun, you have to move your champion through the stun wall to get them stunned.

DurzakaMay 29, 201511 votes

You nailed all the points and saved me the effort of responding to OP. +1.

Agreed on all points.

SEKAIMay 29, 201523 votes

Gypsylord's other creations besides Ekko include,

Vi, Jinx and Gnar.

So yer I guess you can say we get what we expected, although not really in a positive sense however.

Mikal PikalMay 29, 201518 votes

What is wrong with those champs you listed! Fun champs are fun. Ekko is fun. He may be OP now but that can be fixed. People really get too bent out of shape barely 24 hours after a champs release.

Zenthon PrimeMay 29, 201512 votes

Vi is fine, people are just salty because she was "OP" (debatable) for a month due to every champion that was good vs her sucking.
Jinx is overloaded as hell, but isn't overly cheap so she's pretty much ok.
Gnar is completely fine, the only reason people mention him was a brief period where Gnarvin was the most OP combo in the game. Also he's a lane bully so people hate him by default.
Ekko is mostly fine, honestly, it's just that he is indeed slightly overtuned right now (1.3 AP ratio? The hell?) and MURDERS a lot of ~~freelo~~ popular champs like LB because of the nature of his kit. He's super weak to heavy poke from what I've seen.

LoL BucketMay 29, 20152 votes

I feel like that's the point. At least, it's what I got from Sekai's post. Every one of those champs has been a bit OP on release. Except for Gnar; I'm told he was super OP on release or..shortly after? I don't know; I haven't played since before he existed.

Zenthon PrimeMay 29, 20152 votes

He was bad on release and mediocre for a few months after and then became SUPER OP. Well, not really, he was just the only thing aside from Zed/Lee people had to complain about, it's not like he was preseason Warwick or anything stupid like that. I don't remember Vi or Jinx's releases, as I was gone during that year.

Usually what I get from the Gypsylord card is that someone is claiming that X champion is really overloaded and overtuned (Ekko is definitely the former and somewhat the latter, but I don't see him as a cause of power creep in the same way Yasuo or Kalista was).

ChaoticPineconeMay 30, 20152 votes

Jinx was always pretty strong and still the most picked ADC.

Vi wasnt popular upon release, since people didnt like her charge mechanic on the Q. once people realized how strong she can dual and her early ganking power (they already knew her ganks at 6 were strong) she got super popular.

LordGeovanniMay 30, 20152 votes

gnar wasnt op? gnar and jinx was op at beginning jinx was soo op and gnars w was op too.

Aych PiiMay 29, 20159 votes

How dare someone routinely design champions that are fun, not oppressive, and long-term competitively viable?

Ariel the CruelMay 29, 20155 votes

Gypsylord's champs have a tendency to be OP. Number tweaks are sufficient to fix them.

As opposed to ... Say... CertainlyT, who's champs have toxic kits and can't be fixed by simple number tweaks.

PolarTroopMay 29, 201514 votes

Riot even stated awhile back before RekSai 's release that they were attempting to release champions on the underpowered side. I guess they overlooked Ekko when that was stated.

Mikal PikalMay 29, 201512 votes

They release Bard that way and everyone hates him, still thinks he sucks, and make jokes about him. I'm assuming this impacted his sales and overall use. Riot learned their lesson from this community's response. Better to release OP champs and nerf them later.

Ariel the CruelMay 29, 20154 votes

I'm assuming this impacted his sales and overall use.

It was less a financial problem and more a data problem. Nobody could use him. Or those that could, would always get kicked from team builder or have the queue dodged.

With him not seeing any play, they couldn't get any data on him. Heck, even release Yorik had more play time than Bard got.

EternalDarknezMay 29, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mikal Pikal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VLBdyX8R,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-05-29T17:49:28.142+0000)

They release Bard that way and everyone hates him, still thinks he sucks, and make jokes about him. I'm assuming this impacted his sales and overall use. Riot learned their lesson from this community's response. Better to release OP champs and nerf them later.

probably because he is just a trash champion, nothing in his kit is new and its "watered down" versions of other people abilities...minus his ult which imo sucks balls and fks you more times than it helps

honestly with a pbe server, champs shouldnt get to live servers op to begin with...honestly whats the point of having it if your either A=not getting information from it/ B=fixing and tuning things? (have yet to fight ekko but honestly after the releases ive seen, the only thing i doubt is he is not op lol...take almost any champ release except bard as an example)

the ideas around this game be it balance, fixing things etc is all right, in the idea sense, but riots implementation is horrible somehow (do i mention stuff like the oh zed is op he gets in and out to ez, one rounds people, can poke from range AND farm under turret? we saw it as a problem so we.....lowered his attack speed per level by 0.020 or w/e...) ^^^^^ only put that because my last post asking why i joined 2 games and couldnt move ty riot...., got deleted for and i quote "Players making baseless complaints or contesting private matters that isn't relevant to an active discussion" keep in mind...i was the op, it was about 3 lines long and saying i couldnt move in both games....but i guess i should of gave them a still screenshot to show im not moving? because it didnt sink in i couldnt move in the first game that lasted 10min (only because it was a 2v6, i was one of the 2 and i couldnt move) then the next game that was 20mins long and i couldnt move without at least 10s delay......

that enough facts riot? do i gotta write paragraphs to explain something as simple as not being able to move just so you wont take threads off the top stating the obvious? (btw gj on keeping the number of lag threads down, i was watching the new section and found others forums getting deleted pretty quick)

first step in solving any problem is admitting you have one, first way to making problems worse is trying to cover them up

ChaoticPineconeMay 30, 20152 votes

the problem with bard is his kit, not is strength. You can buff the crap out of Bard and he will still be considered trash.

There are very specific scenarios where Bard might be better than some other supports, but those are few and in between. He can ult a tower to towerdive, but that requries the enemy champion not standing in the ult too. The only real utility his ult provides is blocking off a choke in a chase. in most other situations, it delays the inevitable.

Zair UmbrasMay 29, 20151 votes

Ekko was supposed to be underpowered and with his kit, his damage is a bit overwhelming, but he still feels clunky and his W is more of a zoning tool than an actual stun unless people choose to step in it. Kind of annoying. His E also has a clunky as hell teleporting sequence and prior to AS, his AA's are almost Kalista bad, so they gave him over the top damage without letting him feel fluid. I guess they wanted a second Akali?

Ariel the CruelMay 29, 20153 votes

Personally, I'd like to see them nerf his ratios a bit and buff his defense stats a bit. For an assassin that isn't supposed to burst people, he's pretty damn busty. (before "LB burst is faster" guy shows up: We know. So is Talon's. Their trade-marked half-second assassinations aren't the issue being presented..)

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20158 votes

he is good design

doublelift fgMay 29, 20155 votes

as good as lee sin and yasuo

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20153 votes

yes they are interesting uniq champs you think annie is godo design? you think garen is godo design? you think a scholl kids drawing is better design then picasso? is unique complex design bad design and simpel and common design good? they have to make champs like this. this is what leuge are hedding. you cant make simpel designs since they already is done. he is uniq there is nothing wrong with his design. he make sens. power is one thing. but don't tell the his design is bad

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20157 votes

Annie is slightly on the bad side. Garen isn't bad, but he isn't good. skipping Picasso question. Stay on Drugs and don't do school. Unique and complex is fine. Common is fine. The problem is when EITHER of them is severely overtuned. It's fine for Ekko to have so much stuffed into his kit, but he needs to make reasonable trades for them. otherwise, he's poor design, broken, and also suffocating other champions out of the game.

The thing is, they can make complex champions without making them ridiculously overloaded. Look at Zed, for example. One of the higher skill caps in the game, and yet he does it without having 9 effects shoved into his kit. In fact, almost all of his skill cap comes from only 2 abilities, his shadows. Orianna: pretty much the mage counterpart to zed in every aspect, working off of a double positioning mechanic. Simple design, massive skill cap. The fact that Riot has to shove so much into their new champions to make them feel complex and interesting is just lazy. I'd rather see a champion come out with new mechanics to increase complexity.

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20152 votes

"I'd rather see a champion come out with new mechanics to increase complexity."

is that exactly not what ekko is

lazy for making a new and fresh champ like ekko. you just have wrong

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20156 votes

Not really. His passive is another Vayne copy, his Q is another boomerang Skillshot, and his E is just a segmented dash. His W is the closest thing to unique, and that's just because "Powerful ability with a massive delay." it's basically Veigar's stun with a shield, that does something even if it misses. His ult is clearly inspired by Zed's, Riot didn't try to hide that at all. Except, they took away Zed's shadow management and replaced it with the time clone, which does... nothing really. It's just an indicator. The entirity of your thought process with Ekko's ult is going to be: A) Am I dying? If yes, Ult. If no, do nothing. Or B) Is someone standing next to my clone? If yes, Ult. If no, do nothing. They shoved three effects into his ult, and yet it's extremely binary... Overstuffed =/= complex

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20152 votes

cuase vayne was the first three hit and proc ability passive? with your logic we can say that zings q, karma q, syndra q, cassia q, soraka q is the same shit. you way of reasoning is not honorable. you could with your logic argue that there is no different between a pizza and uranus cause they both consist of the same kind of matter when you go to the smallest level if its 1-D strings or what it is.

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20154 votes

It's just a comparison, and it honestly doesn't matter what his abilities resemble. you're deflecting the argument, the point was whether or not he brought anything in terms of mechanics. -Three hit trigger passive -boomerang skillshot -delayed AoE stun-shield, moderately interesting, but to be honest a more reliable but weaker stun would have been more interesting to play as or against. -segmented Dash.

delayed Blink + heal + AoE damage.

none of those brought much in terms of mechanics. the only new mechanic is his time clone, and it's too binary to produce interesting gameplay. the only thing Ekko does to interact with it is what I listed above. The only thing the opponent does about it is just stay away.

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20151 votes

like you know anything about anything bronze

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20153 votes

Thanks for that extremely well thought out argument.

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20152 votes

maybe that, but its definitely that most true thing ever said in boards

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20151 votes

No, I'm pretty sure the most true thing ever said on boards was "People only come here to complain"

jDVL20eCYsMay 29, 20151 votes

i agree, stop qq about ekko

LoL BucketMay 29, 20153 votes

Not to say I agree with anything that feeder-chan said, but...saying someone's argument is invalid because they're in bronze isn't actually ad hominem in this context.

It isn't a GOOD argument, mind you. It's just north of gibberish. But..not ad hominem. It's an attack on the target's intelligence and/or knowledge of the subject matter, not their character.

I KNOW YOU CARE.

Aych PiiMay 29, 20152 votes

If you break everything down to its base parts, there are no unique mechanics left in the game. The uniqueness comes from the combination of mechanics.

Aych PiiMay 29, 20151 votes

His Q is a boomerang skillshot, just copied from all those other champions with boomerang skillshots.

wait...

Sivir ? I guess that kinda counts, but it's still a rarely used mechanic with a cool twist (the slowing field on contact with an enemy champion, plus the fact that it applies his passive). And his ult is inspired by Zed? That is just about the most horseshit thing I've heard all day. His ult is a unique way of translating his time travel abilities into the game, I like it a lot. It really requires a lot of clever play and complex thought to use it against competent opponents, since they won't just walk into it and you don't want to be using it to heal yourself only, that's a waste of all that damage potential.

Okay hold on, I still can't get past that Zed comparison. just because he teleports to (doesn't even switch places with!) a clone, it's instantly a Zed rip off? You might as well say it's obviously inspired by fiddlesticks because it's a short range teleport tied to a large amount of damage. Think these things over...

His E is also really unique. It gives him a short range dash to allow him to go over walls, followed by a slightly longer range targeted blink. It's a new approach to champion mobility that gives him great offensive engage potential as well as a reasonable amount of escape, without making his escape as strong as his engage.

ValthanMay 29, 20154 votes

Ahri Gnar Sivir Draven and Talon all have skillshot abilities that deal damage on the way out and back in again.

Aych PiiMay 29, 20152 votes

I'll give you Ahri. Draven's is a global ultimate that hardly functions as a boomerang, Talon's is a cone, and Gnar's only damages once. The only reason it goes back to him is for the cooldown refresh mechanic.

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20153 votes

Eh, I'm sorry, but the point of the argument wasn't that I was upset his abilities resembled other champions. I'm not bothered by similarities to other champions, the only thing here that's honestly bothering me is "EKKO OR FEED's" belief that simple champions are 'bad/unhealthy' for the game. I'm just trying to humble him a bit without doing something like calling him biased or saying his opinions are 'horseshit,' because that's rude and not very productive.

The reason why I'm comparing Ekko and Zed's ult's is because in Ekko's Champion reveal, Riot said:

Getting players to feel smart, on the other hand, is a trickier beast. Here’s a contrast: Zed players are skillful when they position correctly, engage on their targets and land all their abilities. Zed players are smart when they lead enemies on a wild goose chase and then teleport back to a shadow they left behind at just the right moment.

I don't blame you for not seeing it. Ekko's ult isn't an exact copy, or a rip off. (I never said it was...) It's more like... A spiritual successor, or a brain child or something. The idea was to copy Zed or Leblanc's ability to use one ability both offensively and defensively, by moving into or out of the enemy team and then they worked from there to build the rest of it and make it unique. Comparatively, Fiddlestick's can't use his ult defensively.

And eh... His E feels like they just glued two dashes together to me...No offence, I just don't see it.

DrukyulMay 29, 20154 votes

His ult is clearly inspired by Zed's

If by Zed you mean Weaver

Rinky DinkyMay 29, 20157 votes

Riot already said that philosophy is outdated.

In fact, they said that a while ago, around the start of season 4.

My beef with Ekko is they said that Diana was bad because she's too close to being a bruiser and an assassin, so they kept her weak. (This was recent, like 2-3 months ago

But now we got ekko, whom has the utility and cc of a tank/support, but is also an assassin.

Edit: I am aware Diana is no longer as weak as before

WeiseAzirMay 29, 20153 votes

Diana why play her anymore?? item 3070

HexSketchMay 29, 20151 votes

dianas rework will be great :)

DrunkenGopherMay 29, 20152 votes

LOL, what rework? To my knowledge, Riot has never made any statements about a rework for Diana in the future thus far.

AtheliousMay 30, 20153 votes

Are you really surprised? Champions tend to be over tuned at release well, except bard lol.

BorblandMay 30, 20153 votes

Ekko's skills are fine, his skillset isnt too toxic, just the numbers have to go down a little, he can burst anything right now, but since most his skills needs the enemy to position badly, he can be countered more easilly then some point and click assassins like Kata or Lb.