Reduce the time needed for sion to detonate his shield

Ecodeath·Feb 19, 2016·109 votes·3,331 views

So some time ago when sion was a strong jungler his w was nerfed so he couldnt clear as fast. Then they gutted cinderhulk and the rest of the kit and made him what he is today- one of the weakest junglers and top laners.

I am hoping riot can reduce the duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. This will help sion actually be able to use the ability without it being broken in that short time frame (jungle camps break it, not just champs). Thanks riot!

[zombie-nunu-hearts]

edit: bonus vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPdvMMe41I

57 Comments

BeatzBoyFTWFeb 20, 20169 votes

This nerf is the one thing why I hate the new Shen's Spotlight a little.

"Shen's two levels under Sion & still crushes the fight"

Yea, cz you made Sion in a really shit tier right now.

ARequestOfDeathFeb 20, 20167 votes

OR MAYBE IT WAS A BOT

Malicious MetalFeb 19, 20168 votes

Or make it scale on W's rank? 3, 2.75, 2.5, 2.25, 2

AVL PrinceFeb 20, 20167 votes

I don't think that would really help. Lategame popping the shield isn't nearly as much of a problem because the value increases so dramatically with level. It's also easier to time because it's harder for the enemy to poke it off you when you're not trying to like, farm.

It needs to be reduced to 2 seconds level one, and from there other changes/nerfs should be implemented accordingly.

Right now the skill simply feels bad to use.

Ale non è maleFeb 20, 20161 votes

Or just you could swap the shield and damage values? Make him even more tanky but doing less damage if he can detonate his shield?

TotalJerkFeb 20, 20161 votes

He's already at a point where too much of his power is loaded into ability ranks. I gave the suggestion before to revert the W nerfs, decrease the damage, but give him bonus damage that scales with how long he charges W. Ultimately it ends up with W doing less damage than before at 2 seconds, but more past about 3 or 4 seconds.

EvilMerodachFeb 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEXHjeAh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-19T23:05:43.754+0000)

Or make it scale on W's rank? 3, 2.75, 2.5, 2.25, 2

That wouldn't really help with his early jungle clears, or laning phase. And has it's own set of awkward problems. Like learning/knowing how long you have to kill the shield before he can hit you with it. Having it continually change throughout a game would make playing against him much harder for low elo players. Also adds more feast/famine to his laning. It already gets more hp% and flat damage per rank, adding in a quicker discharge would make it even harder to trade with him if he manages to get a level or 2 up on his opponent and can afford to throw an extra point or 2 into it. And if he gets a level or 2 behind, then he has worse shield% ratios along with worse natural health gains for the % to work off of, worse damage, and worse time to discharge in a trade.

Olath QuortekFeb 19, 20167 votes

Sion is in a good spot. He is debatably the healthiest champion in the game as far as Strength vs. Weakness and Power vs. Counterplay goes. To be perfectly honest, 2 seconds isn't long enough; it's too easy. They don't think they should revert the nerf and I agree.

He is a strong Jungler. Yes camps will break your shield if you just throw it up with no plan to keep it up but there are a number of things you can do to prevent that:

You can simply activate your shield early as you walk to a camp. Activating it at 1:36 pretty much guarantees that you can take 1 hit from the camp and then detonate it before it breaks and this applies to every other camp you take (sometimes it's worth waiting a couple seconds before you start a camp if it gets your shield off.)

Your Q stuns for more than 2 seconds at full charge; activating your shield as it charges works well for getting it off.

At the very least you can kite back a bit, which combined with an E is very effective.

Now all of this basically stops being a problem as soon as you get some health built and put a second point into W (which I suggest doing at lvl 4 before you start maxing Q); Pretty easy after first and second clear.

JVP15Feb 20, 201622 votes

It all depends on your definition of "healthy." If you mean that he isn't overwhelmingly strong or overwhelmingly weak, you would be right. This doesn't take into account the fact that there are overwhelmingly stronger champions that will wreck Sion's day. It is kind of a power creep type thing. The truly balanced champions are weak because the imbalanced ones are dominating the meta and are much stronger than the truly balanced champions, so you need to imbalance a champion for it to be balanced with the other imbalanced champions, if that makes any sense.

MhihnjFeb 20, 20165 votes

nope, it doesn't but i will upvote you anyway

Starfish HFeb 20, 20162 votes

That's why you don't see Nautilus JG anymore.

SKT T1 Maddog98Feb 20, 20161 votes

Ya it's pretty rare for me to find someone other than myself going Jungles Nautilus. But he's my main so I can throw him in any role(I only go ADC Nautilus if I'm playing with friends)

Olath QuortekFeb 21, 20162 votes

Yes. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. That is exactly what I mean by healthy. He is extremely balanced. I honestly don't care about any "overwhelmingly stronger champions that will wreck Sion's day" because I know that I can beat those champions. Sion is healthy enough to beat anyone while healthy enough to lose to anyone. Is that not what healthy is?

Point being: This isn't DOTA last time I checked... imbalanced champions should be brought to balance and not the other way around, if that makes any sense. ;)

SpoofghoulFeb 20, 20163 votes

lets see poppy does same damage with q

does she need to wait 3 fucking seconds before q deals dmg

MelledoneusFeb 20, 20163 votes

Poppy's Q doesn't knock people up for up to 2 seconds in an AoE.

SpoofghoulFeb 20, 20162 votes

yea cos sions shield clearly knocks people up

talking about knockups i think poppy's is the biggest no?

MelledoneusFeb 20, 20162 votes

You do realize they're two completely different champions with different roles, right?

Poppy is meant to separate and disrupt teams with her W and ult, and her E lets her further disrupt champions, especially squishies.

Sion is meant to charge head first into the team, lock them down, be a wall of meat, and shred armor.

Similar, but not the same. Let me show you what you are doing.

"Why doesn't 's Q give movement speed like Viktor 's Q, and why does his shield only block MAGIC damage? Does Kassadin need to be useless against AD mid laners with a magic shield? So unfair!"

SpoofghoulFeb 20, 20162 votes

you can stop trolling now i merely pointed out that 1 champion has the same damage low cooldown without a 3 second charge up its even got a slow tacked on sion has the dmg shielding both got utility bot deal dmg 1 has no 3 second wait time requisite

im not talking about the rest of their champion kits, and no sion isnt someone who just charges in, he can do this but he is better at zonecontroll and use his ulte to re engage after a disengage not just charge in thats dumb

MelledoneusFeb 20, 20162 votes

im not talking about the rest of their champion kits

I refuted your argument by stating that Sion's Q knocks people up. You're the one who brought up Poppy's shield, not me. Poppy's Q is her bread and butter harass ability that is used during high speed combat. Sion is a large, lumbering wall of death that is slow and telegraphed. But with proper play, he can become pretty darn scary. That's the difference between a 3 foot tall yordle with a hammer and a gigantic 10 foot tall titan who wades through armies of men like it's knee-deep water. Thematically, it makes sense. Gameplay wise, it also makes sense.

he can do this but he is better at zonecontroll and use his ulte to re engage after a disengage not just charge in thats dumb

Then tell me why his ultimate rewards him for charging for longer:

Unstoppable Onslaught's damage and Stun icon stun duration increase over the first few seconds of the charge, capping at 200% damage and 1.75 seconds, respectively.

Yeah, don't tell me how to play Sion. I know perfectly well his ultimate is versatile, so don't try to use that for an argument about a completely different part of his kit.

i merely pointed out that 1 champion has the same damage low cooldown without a 3 second charge up

You yourself just stated that Sion is better at zone control. Poppy's Q just deals damage, and has an abysmal range, to top it off. All it does is slow, too. Sion's Q can stun for a whopping 2 seconds, has a large zone, deals incredible damage when charged up, and can be cast early when he wishes. Not to mention that Sion can use it to zone, to slow down chases, to punish opponents, to follow up on his ultimate, etc. You're basically comparing Karthus's Q to Swain's W. Both deal the same damage to a single enemy, but one of them is much, MUCH stronger because of its utility and number of uses.

So, to put it in your own words:

you can stop trolling now

TridemFeb 21, 20161 votes

Anyone else just upvoted the other guy because you felt sorry for his ingorance?

Olath QuortekFeb 21, 20161 votes

Poppy Q has it's advantages and disadvantages and Sion Q has it's advantages and disadvantages. I prefer Sion either way... :D

MarshbouyFeb 20, 20161 votes

i disagree with this so much, nothing like using your shield then q, shield pops, q gets canceled by a yas tornado, your ult was blow to try and engage but people just walked out of the way. the rest of the teamfight is you just sitting there :/

Olath QuortekFeb 21, 20161 votes

So what are you going to do to about it? The key to playing Sion effectively is anticipating and adjusting to enemies. For example: if you find yourself with nothing to do in a teamfight try to position for your next Q.

Eevee In A JarFeb 20, 20161 votes

Debatably thje healthiest? I'd like to know what that means in your definition. I feel like healthiest is Lee Sin because he has ALWAYS been relevant every season. Sion is pretty weak right now. For sure you can play him and if you can get to his late, he will still be strong af but to get to his late will take a loooong time and the current meta is unforgiving to Sion players.

Olath QuortekFeb 21, 20161 votes

Yes, debatably the healthiest. Strength vs. Weakness. Power vs. Counterplay. He is strong and powerful but he is hard to play because of all his weaknesses and counterplay. Healthy.

Lee Sin on the other hand is dangerously close to being extremely unhealthy and the fact that he is "ALWAYS" relevant implies as much. Lee has a lot of power and a lot of Lee-way (heh).

Eevee In A JarFeb 23, 20161 votes

Yeah but I dont know if that constitutes as being healthy. Sion isn't being played often anymore except for those Sion fans and mains. That doesn't sound healthy to me. I agree though Sion was recently in a meta where he could be countered and lose lane horribly but still come back late game like nothing but again he's got a broken kit then; he's either too strong or too weak which is the opposite of a healthy champ.

Olath QuortekFeb 23, 20161 votes

Carrots are healthy bro... Why don't you see everyone walking around eating carrots? Nobody wants healthy because they want unhealthy; sweet, salty, OP. Sion is healthy and hard and you need to want to play him to enjoy playing him and that is ok. I am a Sion main and I love him for what he is; he does not need to change or be buffed because he is healthy as what he is. Yes, his kit was broken before, they nerfed him, and now he is healthy, not weak.

Eevee In A JarFeb 26, 20161 votes

Of course you're happy. He went from being played every other game to being an uncommon pick. And I don't know. Nowadays I see more people walk around with a bag of carrots than a cheeseburger and I live in NJ.

Olath QuortekMar 11, 20161 votes

Hey bro... I've been away for a while so I apologize for not responding for so long.

I am happy but honestly I pretty much never played him pre-rework and I didn't even pick him up until after they nerfed his E to get rid of his oppressive top laning and maybe a week before they nerfed his shield to 3 seconds almost exclusively in the jungle. All of that is to say that I never played him when he was op in his op position when he was popular and the nerf to his shield didn't cripple me at all. I am happy with him as he is because that's how he was when I started playing him and decided that I really enjoyed him because he is healthy and powerful and challenging and fun to play imo.

There are people besides me that like and eat carrots? O.o NJ sounds like a strange place to live...

SquidsmastahFeb 21, 20162 votes

Your Q stuns for more than 2 seconds at full charge; activating your shield as it charges works well for getting it off.

Yeah, if the person doesn't simply walk out of the radius by then.

Olath QuortekFeb 21, 20161 votes

First of all read the entire post please; I am specifically talking about using it on jungle creeps at this point and if you let them walk out of your radius it's your own fault! :P

Secondly... well... no duh? I mean obviously people don't want to stand in your Q... what do you expect? So the question is what are you going to do about it? How are you going to adjust? Slow them with your E or a Randuin's? Cast it in front of them so they are forced to walk into it or stay in a hopefully worse situation? I can tell you right now that you can't expect to get fully charged Qs off very often, even half charged is hard. Get over it and swing early if you need to. Adjust to how the enemy is playing. Landing good Qs is hard but I find them extremely rewarding.

If your just gunna cry like a baby without actually trying then go play an easier champion. Sorry... XD

DengedenFeb 20, 20162 votes

Sion is and was a top laner too, Cinderhulk never affected him there. An early shield pop would make him even more of a lane bully

Weasel KenseiFeb 20, 20164 votes

Sion can bully a bit, but honestly hes fairly vulnerable himself early game. Hes punished for having a health stacking passive by having some of the lowest starting HP of any real top laner.

Sion 543 – 1784 Sivir 516 – 1910 Caitlyn 524 – 1884 How about this: Illaoi 586 – 2201 She has good damage and built in sustain, Sion has the HP of a squishy, and a joke of a shield. Man, 1 less second on his shield pop would mean that maybe he can dent sustain champs... OMG, NOOOOO SO OP!

Sion will of course build HP, but his low starting HP and low HP growth mean hes vulnerable to lane bullies himself in many ways. Sion pretty much has to outplay other bullies and win trades or hes screwed. If he gets jungle camped, or zoned off farm, he will never be a super tank cause he coudlnt farm to get HP.

He beats Gnar by 3 minimum starting HP, and half of Gnars kit is basically a kite mage.

543 HP really isnt much, several champs with D.Blade beat that easy.

He is practically fragile when the match starts, and his shield definitely is. One less second wont be... well it certainly wouldnt do for him what Riot did for Xin, a buff to the top of the charts in win% because.... he was doing fine before, why not make him broken as hell OP...

Sion isnt bad, but he really isnt in the same class as several other above average champs right now.

DengedenFeb 20, 20161 votes

... Illaoi has no CC, her skill shots are just as unreliable, if not more and her defensive ability (her heal) is tied to said unreliable abilities.

Quite frankly, that base health discrepancy is pretty unimportant, top lane has no kill pressure 90% of the time and in a fight, your resistance items (and their utility) will decide it. I mean, have you ever seen someone build Mog's lately? It gives the most HP, doesn't it?

Rinky DinkyFeb 21, 20162 votes

Tryndamere Riven Darius Garen Rengar Irelia Vladimir Chogath TahmKench Kennen Hecarim Graves Kayle Pantheon Olaf

All of these champions, and I left about 5 - 10 others out, will all in you muiltiple times throughout the laning phase.

Quite a few of them will trade with you whenever skills are off cd

DengedenFeb 21, 20161 votes

I said kill pressure, not all-in pressure.

Rinky DinkyFeb 22, 20161 votes

Humor me.

What do you think the end goal of an all in is?

Don't say to kill the enemy laner. That contradict's your earlier statement.

Don't say to gain an hp or mana advantage over the lane opponent either, because that won't work. Doesn't matter how low their hp is if you don't have kill pressure.

Don't say to prevent the enemy from gaining CS. They might lose the all in, but they wont die! Meaning they can farm freely! No kill pressure!

Do you see the issue?

DengedenFeb 22, 20161 votes

... using that logic, every champion has kill pressure over other(s) because you could always walk into the enemy tower and die because of it. Level 1 Fizz would have huge kill pressure because he'd win trades with W.

I'm working under the assumption that you try your best to avoid damage and if you do, yes there's little to no kill pressure top lane. This also means that you B if can't turtle it out after a lost trade.

Rinky DinkyFeb 22, 20161 votes

...

I'm not gonna debate this any longer. Discussion is going no where.

I would think this be common sense tbh.

DengedenFeb 22, 20161 votes

I see. Well I would be curious how my analogy failed and how exactly bursting down someone who specifically itemizes against such an occurrence is commonplace ... but whatevs, I guess.

Weasel KenseiFeb 21, 20161 votes

Illaoi has no CC... well, Id argue that if you cant win a trade with her, or you really need her to stop damaging you via vessel... Then FORCING you to WALK way out of its range is the equivalent of a really slow knock back, should you have tentacles spawning, all the dodging of those Id also consider the equivalent of CC. Her skill shot is no more unreliable than any other skillshot, and last time I checked, skill shots still land... based on skill.

Top lane has "no kill pressure" is one of the most... I dont want to sound like Im calling you names, but Riven, Jax, Fiora are all top laners. Rinky Dinky has some champs for you in their post. You think Ira and Vlad are just going to casually farm and not try to kill you? Are the delusions from medication, or do you repeat your fantasies out loud over and over?

I was going to comment on how much you miss the point with your Mogs reference, but that you even wrote down no kill pressure top lane just means there is no point, you have formed an opinion, and no amount of logic will penetrate. For fun, Il touch on it.

If Sion builds item 3083 he will need an additional 366 HP to have its passive work, if hes being zoned off farm, he will have trouble stacking his passive to get those HP, if hes being zoned off farm, he will have trouble buying the items for the HP. If he is being zoned off farm, then more than likely his opponent is getting further ahead and will still win fights if he finally does get it.

Aside from all that, Illaoi was just an example, there are other sustain top laners, and they have more HP than Sion too.

DengedenFeb 21, 20161 votes

First off, there's a difference between Nid spears and Xerath pulse. You can sidestep the former quite often and you have to either guess or run away from the latter. Illaoi falls more under Nid spear category. #notallskillshots You try to insinuate lack of knowledge on my part and then call Illaoi's test of spirit CC? In lane, maybe, in teamfights, hell no, like I said, tentacles don't offer reliable damage.

Erm, let me put it this way, is it easy to burst down someone who builds health/armor/magic res? It's possible but more often than not, that happens because the person building tanky seriously overstepped their bounds. With TP, cheap utility boots and lots of sustain from tank masteries, 1v1 kills are rare to non-existent on an equal skill level.

MY POINT wasn't that Sion can build Mogs. MY POINT was that nobody builds Mogs anymore because healthstacking isn't a good tanking strategy.

Kitsuki05Feb 20, 20162 votes

Play Sion mid, be pleasantly surprised

Hyrum GraffFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Play Sion mid, be pleasantly surprised

Wait I thought I was the only one who did that.

Sion summoner 4 summoner 14 item 3748 item 3078 item 3053 item 3047 item 3102 item 3742

Or if you really want the lulz,

Sion summoner 4 summoner 14 item 3748 item 3078 item 3053 item 3158 item 3083 item 3147

A max speed, lvl 16 ult + AA with the first 3 items alone does on the order of 2000 damage.

SpoofghoulFeb 20, 20162 votes

the audiovisual clues still suggest it should be able to detonate at 2 seconds

but in reality its 3 seconds

AWKWARD

Monkey D LuffyFeb 21, 20162 votes

Why the crap do people keep asking for sion buffs

Rinky DinkyFeb 21, 20162 votes

They dont play the champ.

It's that simple

Jungle Lux GodFeb 21, 20162 votes

Sion wasn't nerfed because he was a strong jungler. He was nerfed because he was a strong top laner.

This also doesn't include the fact that the detonation timer for Sion's W didn't hurt Sion's ability to jungle at all. You just needed to activate the W 1 second before you used it before the change. Changing the timer to 2 seconds from 3 doesn't help Sion's jungle at all, but does help his top lane.