It's hilarious how Malzahar and Brand as Mages don't need ap to work as Supports

Ahristocats·Jan 13, 2017·125 votes·7,500 views

Yet need a shit ton of AP to make half of their kit working

balance in all things

edit: to all people asking YES Sona is garbage right now at least where i play which means Diamond 1

She can't work in very high elo while she works in low elo, in LCS she had 37% win rate while in regular plays she had 58% win rate https://youtu.be/81Tdk4P8L1E?t=201 her kit makes her imbalanced in regular play if riot makes her viable in high elo

188 Comments

RalanrJan 13, 201740 votes

That's why AP scaling utility on a class that doesn't even have many AP items to build is dumb.

Granted I can't remember if their utility even scales with AP.

AhristocatsJan 13, 20178 votes

Sona bonus damage on allies, bonus ms on allies, damage reduction on passive and slow on her passive all scale with AP which is 1/2 of her kit her other 1/2 is stun on ulti+heal/shield on W that can scale with %bonus healing/shielding from items/keystones

AP utility scaling is a terrible idea because supports don't build AP

they build utility items like item 3107 item 3190 the only AP items i can think of that support Sona can be able to purchase are item 3092 item 3504 item 3174 item 3050

but even then, you can't acheive a high amount of AP THAT'S THE PROBLEM, diminuendo for instance has 25%(+4% each 100 AP) damage reduction, with 150 AP it becomes 31% which is still garbage

5000000000000000Jan 13, 201710 votes

We need a different stat for all utility spells to scale off of.

flibitydooJan 14, 20173 votes

technically CDR is the big core stat for most supports

more CDR= more casts of whatever stun you have

and CDR is very abundant in support itemization. Sometimes you have to cut item choices cause it might put you over the CDR cap.

5000000000000000Jan 14, 20172 votes

Yes, but it just means you can use it more often, not make it more powerful.

flibitydooJan 14, 20173 votes

quite the contrary

one of the weakest champions on release- in that they were completely ignored by most of the community was this guy Ivern . Most people classed him as garbage and was "the champ you picked to signal inting".

Then he got some buffs (including the new jungle rework), and people started building a ton of CDR on him (instead of the normal runic echoes, people actually don't even complete the jungle item, they instead go straight into athenes/redemption). I think by about 15 or 20 minutes or so you could get 45 cdr. suddenly this champion is broken because he can keep you snared every 5 seconds for 2 seconds meaning you get 3 seconds of freedom of movement. If you have mobility skills- you can't cast them while rooted so those skills are functionally silenced/unusable for 2 seconds every 5 seconds. Also if there's a bruiser/melee guy on your team they get a free gap closer.

Even in non-all-in situations, the most popular skill order for Blitzcrank is not what his official champion spotlight recommends (max E,Q,W so you can use your E multiple times per fight) but instead max his Q>E>W, so you can throw out hooks much more often, so even if you miss in the laning phase- you can try again faster.

The thing about support skills, is that on they are quite powerful- looking at it from a utility perspective. And being able to spam them more doesn't make each individual cast stronger, but still adds threat to a support champion, a lot more than other champions get from cdr.

5000000000000000Jan 14, 20173 votes

I'm not saying CDR is useless on supports. CDR is definitely, right now, the best stat on supports so they can spam their utility spells more (or have it up more often as a zoning tool). But CDR still doesn't make the snare duration longer or heals stronger. CC over time would be longer, and heal per second would be higher, but it doesn't make each cast stronger. And having a cap means that once they hit 40% (or 45%), they can't increase their utility other than by buying items with actives.

Best analogy I think would be the difference between buying more AD and buying more attack speed (and crit) on ADCs to maximize DPS. You need to attack more often to maximize your DPS, but you'll eventually hit the AS cap, and you also want more damage per attack. There are times where burst of utility can be more useful than having more CDR, but supports don't have the option to itemize into that. It's like ADCs only being allowed to buy attack speed, but no AD or crit. They will still buy attack speed (and likely overcap it in the process) because that's the strongest stat on them, but it's not really that good.

SpecterVonBarenJan 14, 20172 votes

Please don't talk crap, Ivern was strong on release, it's the fact that he was a support that made everyone say he was trash. Me as a support player saw how strong he was and I was able to use him very well because I knew what I had to do to do his job.

SpecterVonBarenJan 14, 20172 votes

The issue with this thinking is that a lot of classes like CDR but this is on top of getting more defenses or more offense.

SogrethJan 14, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I6ge2900,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:00:06.229+0000) but even then, you can't acheive a high amount of AP THAT'S THE PROBLEM, diminuendo for instance has 25%(+4% each 100 AP) damage reduction, with 150 AP it becomes 31% which is still garbage

31% damage reduction is still pretty damn good. Chain that with Exhaust, and you can shut down anyone.

Her damage reduction isn't the problem

Fondling GemsJan 14, 20173 votes

The problem is that she has the potential to do so much more. For reference it is possible to hit 100% Dmg reduction on Sona. There are videos of it. The issue is that for a support who's utility scales off of AP she doesn't build AP and when she does she uses it to do damage, not for the purpose of healing/shielding/protecting.

AhristocatsJan 14, 20172 votes

it lasts 3 seconds, and you need to have 3 stacks ready when your enemy will burst the problem is when you play Sona right now in this meta 31% damage reduction will do nothing

like syndra can 2000 damage your carry in mid game who has 1300 hp if you reduce it by 31% it will be 1200 damage, that's still dangerous for your adc

BastionKrossJan 13, 201729 votes

I remember back in preseason 4 when a bunch of mage supports got AP scalings on their utility.

Then gradually most of those supports lost or had those scalings toned down, because it was a horrible idea. Lulu still has hers, but she escaped bot lane and became a solo laner much to the confusion of everyone (at that time, if a support tried to go to a solo lane they were quickly punished with harsh nerfs).

Sona still has hers, but she's also the joke the balance team tells one another to make each other laugh.

Nami might still have hers.... oh yeah, she's still got a slight one left on her E slow. Nothing major there, I imagine it would be removed if she ever got any serious work done.

Bottom line - Making support's utility scale up to where it was originally when no other class had to was needlessly handicapping. On top of that, making the scalings work off of a damage stat that supports can't easily build was double stupid. If that hadn't been the same time the three gold gen items we still use today rolled off the PBE, the support role might have been extremely scarce of willing players and that would have fucked up queue for everyone.

Thank god we dodged that bullet. Now excuse me while I go get auto filled.

AnidanJan 13, 20177 votes

Doesn't Kayle still gain additional movespeed on her heal based on her AP? I just find that one kind of funny.

Gosh DarnJan 14, 20176 votes

It at least makes sense in her case, she's a solo laner (or even jungler) that can accumulate gold to buy a lot of AP.

Tik115Jan 14, 20176 votes

Sona's rework became a disaster, they took her niche, what you would pick her for, Her buffing up her team with weak stats but buffing multiples at the same time and ruined it (And if you do the math at the most the Q gave 1 amp tome and 2 Longswords worth of stats (1.1k gold of stats) the W gave a measily 380 gold per person and the E gave less then 250, on a champion which unless built AP would turn into a flash ult bot come mid game/ make the team be 4v5 or at best a 5 v 5 with a far behind mage, and given champions can get similar kinds of free stats (Yas's double crit, Caits headshot damage, Darius passive armour pen, Jhins 4th shot) it was silly to remove them) by making her a weaker Nami with less survivability and no escapes, Seriously Nami has 2 CC where Sona has 1, Nami has a passive which gives movespeed, Sona have an aura which lasts 3 seconds and a "Meh" range, Nami heals better then Sonas heal and shield combined and Sonas Q ONE bonus damage on his loses to Namis 3 on her E with some powerful poke on her W to boot

The thing is making the Utility scale wasn't a bad idea at the time, though hitting their damage was a mistake (Remember Janna Mid? that wasn't a troll once upon a time) because when players look at the team comp they want often times they'll find the champions that do the most damage and maybe a few extra things, thus AP mages waltz down from mid, use their utility, because its enough to match a utility supports, and shove out Traditional supports with superior damage which will outlast any traditional support (Except Nami and Bard but they were overbuffed) and CC which matches most of the support roster (Blitz, Thresh, Leonna, Naut are the only supports which have more then 1 hard CC that isn't their ult, meanwhile every other support has at least 1 hard CC which a mage can match + their superior damage)

But at this point Utility scaling supports was a mistake as was the mistake of hitting their damage, as you said the Support champions are the ONLY champions which are not allowed to go to any other lane now (Pre-rework Soraka mid was a big problem though I'll admit) meanwhile, Brand, Zyra, Annie, Malz, 4 mid lane mages which even had reworks of various amounts in the mage update go bot lane, Hell they even said "Fuck it" and rebranded (heh) Brand and Zyra to have their primary role as support, Meanwhile, Mid Janna? Nerf! Top lane Lulu? Nerf!

The best idea at this point would be to turn all Traditional supports into Utility mages/tanks/brusiers, allow them to go to other lanes solo, I mean if other lanes can bring their champs down bot and do well then supports should be able to as well

DessemJan 14, 20172 votes

You can still bring Karma Mid.

Tik115Jan 14, 20173 votes

Yes but remember Karma as a champion had/has been overbuffed since 6.6, she was basically the go to support since way back then, In addition she has the base stats and scaling of a mid laner mage compared to other supports which also allows her to go to other lanes

Chamuel85Jan 13, 201725 votes

Idk if you know what 'one shotting' is when you think Zyra's combo without plants hitting 100 times is a 'one shot'. Look, Caitlyn one shot that Maokai in only 120 hits! ONE SHOT CITY CAIT OP. lol

Did the math. Full combo (no plants) on Zyra is 876 dmg with 70AP at lvl 18

StephenizgodJan 13, 201712 votes

Haha you create a lot of "balance" posts about different things... like i saw 3 on the front page.

Anyways Sona's damage is free, requires 0 skill. Not saying she as a champion requires no skill, just that when she does a lot of damage it is low counterplay other than "don't be near her" which as we all know is not good game design. She shouldn't be allowed to build a lot of AP, in fact she shouldn't be because she will fall off late game and it takes too long to get enough AP to actually do anything UNLESS you are already fed. Lulu is an abomination when she can deal damage.

Now Zyra is just broken... her damage is ridiculous, it costs nothing, is easy to do, and has very low counterplay. Dodge her Q? good job but now 2 plants are shooting you from half way across the lane dealing about 50% of your HP instantly... Its disgusting... if she is meant to deal that much damage then you need to cut down the reliability in which she can do it. You think that random seed thing makes her situational? wrong she only needs 1 plant to deal a decent amount of damage for free. The range of her plants should be cut down and the rate she can spawn them should be fixed as well as mana costs should be raised.

but just because Zyra is broken, doesn't mean Sona and Lulu need any serious work.

AhristocatsJan 13, 20176 votes

{quoted}

but just because Zyra is broken, doesn't mean Sona and Lulu need any serious work.

i created a fucking ton of threads asking for this Sona just won't get her rework or vgu or whatever

i know that she lacks of counterplay i know that she lacks of skill but Meddler is busy to nerf Darius somehow,

DracocrashJan 13, 20176 votes

Sona lacks counterplay?

Why so. To get her full poke off, she needs to be in auto attack range, and can be cucked really easily if she oversteps, because how amazingly tanky she is.(SARCASM ALERT)

AhristocatsJan 13, 201719 votes

part of the reason Sona is garbage right now is that she can't trade

if she wants to trade like you said she will get destroyed if Riot revert her W back to what it was, or buff her base tankiness she's going to destroy adcs

see a pathern? that's the lack of counterplay because Her Q is binary in her kit

what's more, her Basic Q (the bolts) deals 40 damage at level one, 160 at level five it's just garbage, and it can't be allowed to be good because it's not a skillshot or anything, just 850 range spell you press and you get damage

her Q just needs a massive rework/or work i'm surprised it stayed like that for 7 years

VenomarJan 13, 20172 votes

Sona is garbage because she has the third highest win rate?

I like how you compartmentalized your argument on her Q too.

40 base damage 10 for bonus ap scaling 24 for empowered Allied auto 70 for allied auto (using Cait)

That's 74 damage case by her Q

With power chord it's 121 counting her auto and staccato

With power chord and empowered allied auto its 215

With an auto reset on Power chord and allied attack its 265 damage

At lvl one...

Surely garbage

chipndip1Jan 14, 20175 votes

Don't use champion.gg. Their stats don't update right.

Sona fluctuates between 49 and nearly 51 percent in Diamond. Right now she's 49% on a 3.8% win rate in Diamond play.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sona/diamond

LuxannaVeritasJan 14, 20172 votes

Considering that op.gg also has Sona at a top 5 win rate, I think we can trust champion.gg on this one.

Baron of BreadJan 14, 20172 votes

I would rather use champion.gg since they at least tell me things like the population size, how they accumulate data and what the population is. leagueofgraphs tells me nothing other than the number of games they have analyzed of League over the course of probably one day (they don't make it clear).

Also, 49 or 50% win rate is fine, I don't think any champion would need a buff at that point.

StephenizgodJan 13, 20175 votes

Her poke is automatic, it doesn't require any skill by itself, she clicks a button and it does damage for her then she auto's, boom tons of damage. You mention her weakness to overstepping, that is put in place because of how low counterplay her damage is. It is also why she feels pretty weak most of the time, she has high damage and utility it is just hard to pull off because she can easily be punished.

Remove some of the low counterplay and she can be buffed to be more useful.

chipndip1Jan 14, 20173 votes

When Sona's counter-play is "I have to fight at ranges that make no sense for an enchanter to be in", therein lies the problem. Her counter-play shouldn't be that to begin with, and it is that because there's no counter-play to being AA'd for a chunk of health, so her counter-play is the same as a marksman's: being in range to be ran over by your shit when they use their shit.

StephenizgodJan 13, 20173 votes

I think Sona's identity is screwed up right now and its causing this odd game health issue with her.

ShaolinToiletJan 13, 20176 votes

Zyra isn't even broken. Shes pretty balanced right now.

StephenizgodJan 13, 20174 votes

lol

ShaolinToiletJan 13, 20175 votes

You're free to prove me wrong with statistics

AnidanJan 13, 20171 votes

"Don't be near them" is the only real way to avoid damage from anyone that isn't Vel'koz. How is that bad game design? You avoid a melee champion's damage by avoiding being in melee range, and if you're in melee range you take damage. I don't... what? If you're in range of a ranged champion you can take damage through auto-attacks if nothing else. Good luck avoiding that. Is that still bad game design? What about the fact that you can infinitely kite that aforementioned melee champion? That's probably not looking too great in his eyes by making him wholly useless. Or perhaps you mean abilities specifically, right? Well, then you have to start adding up over half the roster for that list of "bad design."

Troll for TrumpJan 13, 20175 votes

Have you ever laned vs Pantheon as a melee champ?

"Don't go near them" isn't counterplay

chipndip1Jan 14, 20172 votes

Sona DOES need serious work so she can be less brain dead to play.

Lulu needs work so she isn't a balancing nightmare and actually functions as a support.

Enchanters in general need an update atm.

StephenizgodJan 14, 20172 votes

but just because Zyra is broken, doesn't mean Sona and Lulu need any serious work

The argument that because Zyra is busted, must mean Sona and Lulu need work was what I was referring to. I worded it poorly though, so my bad. I know this doesn't relate to your comment, but in other comments I do state that she needs work.

chipndip1Jan 14, 20173 votes

I get you.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 13, 20179 votes

Lulu is fine with Enchanter items, like Janna.

Xela SyabJan 14, 20178 votes

I really think they need to make utility supports scale with mana regen since most of their items are mana regen.

YoungFarmerJan 13, 20177 votes

Brand clicked R. Rip.

Cosmic WarperJan 13, 20176 votes

How do these posts even get upvoted.... i understand that zyra is overtuned, but in no way can she oneshot an adc with 70 AP...

Mira Arya EntheJan 13, 20175 votes

Exactly, 'support' mages are overriding supports in low tiers due to carry potential and lane harass. I miss my old Malz also, he was more fun and better balanced. Not commonly played. And couldn't support.

XeruonJan 13, 20175 votes

I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point but the reason mage supports are better in lower elos are because it's so hard to carry with actual supports.

Done25Jan 14, 20175 votes

Riot needs to not balance Enchanters/Wardens against having low gold income. They should increase the amount of gold generation from Coin/Relic/Thief to reward supports for playing well and rebalance their kits to account for the scaling.

This allows Enchanters/Wardens to have late game fantasies. Take Nami for example, her kit comes with immensely powerful utility scaling, but she never gets to use any of it due to her low gold income and a lack of potent AP items that she can use. Not to mention the way her build must first overcome the slump of: Buying Talisman of Ascension, Ruby Sightstone, Redemption, and Locket not because she wants the stats they give, but because of how massively overtuned the actives are. Throw in some boots and she has already used up 5 of her 6 item slots, the 6th of which will probably go to red wards.

Meanwhile, the Viktor in mid lane has gotten their Morellonomicon, Lichbane, and a Deathcap as well as a level advantage and is well on his way to his end game fantasty while the Nami is dead in the water with 0 AP.

woodvsmurphJan 14, 20174 votes

Morgana

PsybicilinJan 13, 20171 votes

I think the problem with sona and lulu is their lack of hard CC and the range of their harass. I believe buffing Sona's E slow would make her a better support when the jungler ganks pre-6.

DracocrashJan 13, 20177 votes

lulu has hard cc tho

Point and click while were at it.

Its basically a fear.

SpecterVonBarenJan 14, 20172 votes

She has TWO in fact, her ult knocks up enemies around her target.

DracocrashJan 15, 20172 votes

true, but I didn't mention it because it is a relatively high cd ability, just like sona's ultimate