Instead of Urgot rework Dash, maybe his E could have force his legs to rotate?

xxxMadLionxxx·Jul 8, 2017·20 votes·1,479 views

Some ppl are on the fence about Urgot dash. I can see why riot gave it to him. It's like a mini version of his old ult but a skill shot instead of targeted. So he is not really gaining anything he did not already have with the rework. But a skill shot dash adds some free mobility while a targeted dash required a target.

In any case, I just wanted to mention that instead of a dash, his E could have been used to force his legs to rotate by X degrees.

What do you think?

36 Comments

hhaavviikkJul 8, 201722 votes

rotating his legs sounds like an incredibly boring ability

kile147Jul 9, 20171 votes

It does on its own, but it could be a two part ability. First cast rotates legs, second cast fires all available legs at once, putting all legs used this way on a 1 sec cooldown.

Teridax68Jul 8, 20178 votes

I too have mixed feelings about Urgot's dash. As you said, it's technically something he already has in his current kit in the form of his ult, and it also serves as a better activator for his hind legs, but it still looks awkward on him, and I think giving a pretty decent dash to a juggernaut who already has range is risky. I would've rather his W boosted his movespeed, instead of slowing him and giving him slow resistance, and his E did something else instead unrelated to mobility. I'm not the biggest fan of having him rotate his legs, because I think there's value in keeping their position static, as it forces Urgot to move himself around his opponents.

With that said, though, this all comes from surface-level observation of a kit that hasn't even appeared on PBE yet. With time and testing, it could very well be that Urgot will work perfectly fine with a dash. Overall, his kit also looks very tight and extremely well thought-out, so it's likely his dash was also done with a lot of consideration.

GelsominoKillerJul 8, 20173 votes

I think the dash is necessary, even if I strongly dislike its animation.

Urgot needs something to make use of his back legs; as an Hecarim player I assure you that surpassing somebody with bare movement speed is no easy task.

I know that a dash+fling might put him further from a true Juggernaut identity, but that is merely a classification issue.

Teridax68Jul 8, 20172 votes

I think it's more of a kit load issue than a classification issue: when Graves was reworked to be exceptionally durable while still remaining bursty and mobile, he became a balance problem, because he ended up doing more than most of the competition at the same time. Similarly, compared to other juggernauts, Urgot's new kit already has more range, but also more burst mobility and even above-average CC, while still remaining quite tanky and having plenty of damage. Effectively, there doesn't appear to be a stark tradeoff to the advantages he has over other champions in his niche.

To some extent, I think it's good to see a juggernaut with more reach, as I think many juggernaut designs and reworks made the champions too binary relative to kiting, but I'm also wary of giving gapclosers to champions who are meant to be among the least mobile in the game. If it ends up becoming a thing on every new release or major rework (and, to a degree, it has been for quite some time), it's an implicit admission that the state of mobility in the game means those champions need a dash or blink in order to be functional, even if it doesn't mesh at all with their theme or look, as is the case here for Urgot.

V The Support VJul 8, 20172 votes

You are correct. That CC is Godly. Stark trade off is the passive. It's a trap. Support Urgot anyone?

GelsominoKillerJul 9, 20171 votes

To be honest I don't consider Graves' kit to be flawed in any way. For sure he has been overtuned for a while, but i think the rework was brilliant, and True Grit completely necessary and justified.

That said, Urgot may have more range, but he lacks the big "Juggernaut CC". I don't see Urgot's dash to be different from Darius pull from a design standpoint. You have also to consider that a champion you think shouldn't have mobility has a self-slow instead. A Juggernaut which kites itslef makes no sense!

In genera though I share your sentiment on mobility creep.

Teridax68Jul 9, 20171 votes

I think Graves's rework was excellent as well, and I agree that he deserves to be a tanky marksman ("shotgun brawler" is his core theme), but I also think keeping his burst on top of that was a mistake, in part because of the issues you usually get by giving burst to a durable champion, but also because it ended up giving him too many strengths, and led to him being difficult to balance and feeling unfair to play against for a long time. With less instant damage output, he'd be more or less perfect, imo.

As for Urgot's CC, I think he actually has above-average crowd control relative to other juggernauts: keep in mind that Darius's pull and slow are also above-average, and more typical examples include Garen (only has a silence), Illaoi (only has a slow) and Nasus (only has a slow, even if it's extremely powerful), with Mordekaiser (has no innate CC) as the most extreme example of juggernaut design in that respect. Relative to that, Urgot's two slows and one flip (not counting his ult's pull/suppression because it only happens to execute a target) are above-average, which is fitting for a champion whose original kit has some pretty good utility. I agree that the self-slow is a big downside, but I don't think that entirely makes up for the repositioning/gapclosing power he has with E, particularly since he has full control over both.

GelsominoKillerJul 9, 20171 votes

Good point. I'd rather have Graves be tankier and less bursty to reinforce his "up close and personal" fantasy.

As for Urgot, I must note that Darius is coincidentally one of the few Juggernauts that work. Nasus and illoai might be considered fine too, but they both have evident power in other parts of their kits. Again, I believe that "extra mobility" Urgot has is to allow him to make full use of his passive. In a team fight he will be required to move around his opponents constantly, so a reposition spell makes a lot of sense. No other Juggernaut must deliver such amount of mobility to be successful, so in my opinion Urgot should have extra tools.

Teridax68Jul 9, 20171 votes

I feel the main reason Darius works isn't so much due to his CC as it is due to his reach with E: juggernauts like Garen, Illaoi and Mordekaiser suffer heavily against ranged opponents because they simply don't have any real options against them, and in some harsher cases, e.g. Ashe, Kalista, Lucian, etc., it's quite possible for their target to constantly keep them outside of melee range while mowing them down. By contrast, Darius gets to pull his targets in and deal a substantial chunk of damage, so even if they can kite him after, he still has a means of engaging them. Urgot I suspect will have a similar advantage with his ranged attacks, and on top of that also has a few more ranged tools to pin enemies down from a distance, namely his Q and R.

I also agree that his E is designed to fully enable his passive, but I think that's a slightly different conversation from the one being made here: yes, in terms of internal consistency, Urgot's E is great, because his passive coupled with his slow speed means he would very much benefit from a tool that would expose an enemy to his hind legs, but in terms of features Urgot has over his competitors, it means he also has a versatile gapcloser (which will serve him for many more purposes than just using his back legs, as seen in his combat clip) in addition to above-average range and above-average CC. As long as he has some decent amount of damage and durability, even if it's below-par for a juggernaut, it still looks like he'll have more features than his rivals.

GelsominoKillerJul 9, 20171 votes

I fully understand your reasoning, still I believe that one must evaluate the champion kit without too much consideration on classification.

Your assumption is that Urgot is a Juggernaut, and as such he must have a defined set of strengths and weaknesses typical of the class. The class, however, is composed of a wide variety of champions that fulfill different niches: Urgot isn't going to have Darius' bully performance or llloai crazy 2v1 potential. He's obviously designed to have impactful sustained damage as long as he can avoid the kiting, manage his self slow and position correctly during the fight... Which is not easy. A dash and a relevant CC will help his reliability, just like his range. Urgot would not be able to function in the intended way without range.

Anyway discussing with you I have come to the conclusion that a free dash might generate the issues that you're exposing. As a solution I'd better see on his kit a targeted dash that can still be interrupted by body blocking and terrain. This would reinforce his Juggernaut roots and contain mobility creep.

Teridax68Jul 9, 20171 votes

While classification is definitely not meant to be a rigid, limiting framework, it's still a useful tool for establishing comparisons among champions who compete for certain niches and roles. I've been mainly talking about Urgot as a juggernaut, even though he's technically a juggernaut-marksman hybrid, because it's nonetheless a valid point of reference to start comparing, particularly since he's likely to be picked mainly as a top laner and possibly jungler (it's also easier than to judge him as a marksman, as marksmen generally have a lot of strengths and less well-defined weaknesses, even when it comes to personal durability).

In this respect, the two questions to make sure a champion is in the right place are "what does this champion bring to the table that similar champions lack?" and "what does this champion lack relative to their competition?". Question 1 is easily answered on Urgot, because as a juggernaut-marksman hybrid he has above-average range, in addition to above-average CC. On top of this, though, he is the only juggernaut with a free-targeted dash besides Shyvana, so effectively there is a lot to him that surpasses other champions in his niche in terms of just base effects.

Question 2, on the other hand, is less easy to answer: Urgot does seem much more focused on single targets than other juggernauts, who generally (but not always) have a lot of easy AoE, but then again his innate is built to give him AoE damage. He does have a self-slow, but then again he also has a dash. He might be less tanky than other juggernauts, but he's still durable, so if it's meant to be an intended weakness, it's not one that's as firm as his strengths. In practice, there might be things that other juggernauts can do that he just can't, but just by comparing him to similar champions, and without having to apply classification too hard, he definitely is at risk of having too many strengths and not enough weaknesses.

As for toning down the power of his dash, a targeted dash could be an option, though personally I'd be favor of changing his W so that, instead of self-slowing, it would boost Urgot's movement speed when strafing a locked-on target (and only strafing): it would give him an easier time to maneuver around his opponent, without necessarily letting him clear too much distance too quickly. As for his E, he'd need something else, and a possible alternative could be to just have him stab his legs at people for damage at close range. This is all spitballing on a kit that's been in the works for months and just got revealed to the public without yet making it to testing, though, so only time will tell how Urgot will turn out.

Chembaron YamadaJul 9, 20171 votes

You can't really tell about his trade-offs as long as we didn't see any numbers. Yes, he is classified as a Juggernaut. That does not mean that his damage or tankiness is on the same level as other Juggernauts.

For example: His only built in sustain (if you want to consider it as such) is his shield on W. We don't know its numbers yet (base value, scalings, cd, etc.). It is absolutely possible that he will be less tanky than other Juggernauts like Darius or Illaoi. Same applies to his damage.

And while he is ranged, Riot made a good job still giving him the Juggernaut weakness of being kitable. Because as far as we can tell, most of his damage comes from his passive, which requires him to circle around his enemy. He will have a hard time applying that damage on highly mobile targets.

Teridax68Jul 9, 20171 votes

I think numbers are a bit of a red herring here, because even if Urgot ends up being balanced around not being the tankiest or most damaging juggernaut around, he is still designed to take and deal a lot of damage. Historically, balancing overloaded champions around nerfed numbers has never worked all that well, because those champions still remained generalists and tend to either become far too present when they're good, or drop off the map when they're not, simply because they either bring a bit of everything and enough power to always upstage someone else, or always have a better alternative for everything they do.

I agree that his passive makes his damage more difficult to land, but difficulty in itself is a weakness that progressively erodes with mastery of the champion, and so cannot be a defining weakness to any kit. Kiteability is also a weakness common to all juggernauts, and Urgot lessens that to some extent by being ranged. Again, I could very well be wrong, and Urgot's strength-weakness profile might end up being sufficiently solid for him to be a solid competitive pick without treading on the toes of his competition, but from looking at his kit now he really does have a bit of everything.

Asayake 5150glowJul 8, 20173 votes

Also Urgot is a juggernaut, why does he have a dash as well as range 0_o

JoesJul 8, 20171 votes

Gnar

Asayake 5150glowJul 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Gnar is hardly a juggernaut in his ranged form, and even less of one in melee. He's a marksman in ranged and a diver in melee.

Big LincolnJul 8, 20173 votes

i think urgot E would be better suited just having the fling, tbh

CrabPeopleReformJul 8, 20172 votes

stop being a lee sin his dash is fine cause it is slow and low range you must be really close to him in order to get pulled back stop playing ahri ty

Synnx7Jul 8, 20171 votes

Riot ran out of ideas so its a VI ult, 80% shortened and a Singed E.

PePsiLemoNNJul 8, 201715 votes

You can describe every ability in the game that way lol

TeCoolMageJul 8, 20179 votes

Exactly:

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Darius's ult and put it on Annie, bigger range, no extra passive damage

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Ezreal's Q, put it on his W, damages champions in an AOE only, gives free attack speed but no on hits

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Ashe's W, put it on Vladimir, and made it into a charged circle

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Xerath's Q but made it a projectile on varus

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Zigg's W and gave it to Soraka's E but made it impossible to reactivate, gave silence and a root, and can't affect towers

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Soraka's R but made it for the enemy on karthus

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Ashe's ult but instead of a global projectile with a stun it's a point and click ability that does double damage to recently stunned targets or those slowed by ult, and put it on Anivia's E... okay I'm stretching it now

DanjengJul 8, 20171 votes

Riot ran out of ideas so they took Brand's Q

and put it on Ryze, it's literally the same ability. and put it on Dr. Mundo, except that it slows too and costs health. and put it on Ezreal, except that it applies on-hit effects. and put it on Ahri, except that it charms. and put it on Morgana, except that it roots. and put it on Rek'Sai, except that it marks. and put it on Vel'Koz, except that it splits and slows. and put it on All star, but it's a skillshot every time he says "star".

IcyPepperJul 8, 20171 votes

Annie's ultimate is just Ekko's W on a higher cooldown, less delay, combined with Malzahar's voidlings.

Chembaron YamadaJul 9, 20171 votes

Both skills you listed are targeted, not skillshots. If you really want to make this argument, you should have used Galio E and Singed E.

But since you can make this statement about pretty much every skill in this game, it's pointless.

TeCoolMageJul 8, 20171 votes

I would've preferred a melee hook or chain to throw someone over him but that would turn him into pudge and thresh at the same time

warpenguin555Jul 8, 20171 votes

Or they could make it a short range targeted dash. Darius, Garen, and Illaoi all have those

Lintu PuckJul 8, 20171 votes

wait, since when do Darius and Garen have Targeted Dashes?

warpenguin555Jul 8, 20171 votes

Garen has one on his Q and Darius on his ult. Very short

sobi999Jul 8, 20171 votes

Skill shot dash is wayyy better in literally all circumstances than targeted dash. If you are a good player the difference between a skill shot and targeted dash gets less and less but the fact that skill shot dash has many more uses does not change.

RenownedWheat42Jul 8, 20171 votes

If ALL the ability did was allow his legs to rotate, he'd lose a lot of power and need it to be made up elsewhere.

He already loses damage if he doesn't get to fire off his back knees, and giving an ability that literally just rotates him is not only boring, it's just a "Push to keep up with other champs' autos" button. And that's ABSURD.

Mouse534Jul 9, 20171 votes

I don't like it because it tosses something he has in his kit already, a switch mobility move. Right now its a blink, slow channel ability, but the new rework turns it into a short range, slow dash. It takes his old ult and makes it a minor ability. By the looks of the video it does extremely little damage, and seems to be the last thing to lvl. The range also seems to be really short (compared to the range that gragas has for his belly slam in the same video), it feels insignificant to argue that it should not be in his kit since it is already in his current kit.

Rotating the legs would reduce interactivity, as it would become reliable, guaranteed additional triggers of his passive. Right now it is a skillshot (subject to missing), low damage (excluding the passive proc), high-ish cooldown (ten seconds between use), and if missed places you in a worse position (pushed position). Hate to say it, but no thank you; changing it reduces the interactivity, and removes any chance of skill (both parties) beside press e to hit target with passive.

They are also adding another grounded ability in the game this patch (Singed), and thornmail buffs which will trigger for each of the w procs not including if his passive triggers (probably will, but only once like graves). If we count the number of autos in the w, it is 9 shots per channel (every 3 bullets triggers dmg on target). That means thornmail will probably trigger 10 times (I only counted passive once for simplicity sake), and reduce his overall damage, and proc grieve wounds.

VoraciousXJul 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't like it because it tosses something he has in his kit already, a switch mobility move. Right now its a blink, slow channel ability, but the new rework turns it into a short range, slow dash. It takes his old ult and makes it a minor ability. By the looks of the video it does extremely little damage, and seems to be the last thing to lvl. The range also seems to be really short (compared to the range that gragas has for his belly slam in the same video), it feels insignificant to argue that it should not be in his kit since it is already in his current kit.

Rotating the legs would reduce interactivity, as it would become reliable, guaranteed additional triggers of his passive. Right now it is a skillshot (subject to missing), low damage (excluding the passive proc), high-ish cooldown (ten seconds between use), and if missed places you in a worse position (pushed position). Hate to say it, but no thank you; changing it reduces the interactivity, and removes any chance of skill (both parties) beside press e to hit target with passive.

They are also adding another grounded ability in the game this patch (Singed), and thornmail buffs which will trigger for each of the w procs not including if his passive triggers (probably will, but only once like graves). If we count the number of autos in the w, it is 9 shots per channel (every 3 bullets triggers dmg on target). That means thornmail will probably trigger 10 times (I only counted passive once for simplicity sake), and reduce his overall damage, and proc grieve wounds.

Um....It's not MEANT FOR DAMAGE. It's meant to either A. use it to deliver someone to your team or B. use after you've fired your legs on one side to hit him with the legs on your other side. His passive does a LOT of damage as you can see in the reveal videos.

As for the thornmail changes. Thornmail will be a ton weaker than live, and will not count damage TAKEN from enemy champions. Instead it'll do a flat amount of damage based on how much armor you have(ALSO 15% less than live). Considering Urgot seems to do tons of damage with his passive, if you were to fight a thornmail champion you'd likely still be able to destroy him quite easily. As for his E placing him in an unfavorable position, he's a juggernaut so you're likely to be building black cleaver and other tanky items. He should likely be fine for a bit. I mean you could see he had a lot of HP in the video.

The main thing I'm glad for though about this rework is they give more counterplay to his whole lock on mechanic and he likely can't Q spam you to death from miles away.