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Proposed Lulu Changes

ChaddyFantome··4 votes·539 views

Okay, Im tired of this. I don';t care if it means a rework, i just wanna play Lulu in ranked again.

Bratty wining aside, I am willing to admit parts of lulu's kit and design are a bit obnoxious (tho I think at her core, she should be obnoxious in design), but their are elements that are kinda braindead and frustrating.

For starters, Instant point and click Damage that then is followed by Q, people find this annoying, and i also feel there is much wasted potential here, as the play pattern isn't super engaging for either player. Not outright bad per se, but definitely could use more work. As for lulu players, I'm sure we would like something a little bit more engaging and satisfying than simply looking for opportunities to click E on someone during laning phase, and there is nothing more annoying than accidentally pressing E on enemies instead of shielding Allies, or even a minion.

So instead of just crying about it, here are some changes I've thought of.

Passive.

  • Pix Bolts damage lowered.
  • Bolts now apply a stacking Debuff (Pixie Dust) . At 9 stacks, Lulu's next damaging spell against them to deal bonus damage and Shrink enemy champions for 1.5 seconds, lowering champion size and reducing their damage and resistances by X amount based on target level for the duration.

Cannot be used on the same enemy more than once within 5 seconds.

**Q - Glitterlance **

  • Now simply does less damage to minions instead of less damage to subsequent targets from the first.
  • Hitting Enemies with 9 stacks of Pixie Dust, Shrinks them.

W - Whimsy ( Ally cast ) Unchanged

(Enemy Cast) Polymorph duration now scales from 1 second to 1.5 seconds instead of 1.25 to 2.25.

  • Now interacts with Shrinking Debuff. Each debuff extend sthe duration of the other debuff when applied on top of eachother.
  • Polymorphed Enemies can cast summoner spells while Trasmogulated.

E - Help Pix.

  • Now a AoE skillshot similar to Orianna's ball.
  • No longer can be cast directly on enemies.
  • Now acts like Azir Soldier when at target location (or alternatively, acts as as Swain's Q).
  • Can be snap casted on ally similar to Bard' W.
  • Tags allies and enemies that walk on top of Pix, Shielding and following as well as assisting an ally, but damages, follows and revealed an enemy.

R - Wild Growth

  • No longer provides AoE Slow on cast.
  • Allied Champions with Pix on them get an AoE slow.
  • AP scaling lowered
  • Added a small health scaling.
  • Bonus Health buff lowered.
  • Now scales based on targets max HP.

Context

Lulu is a champion about Buffing Allies and disabling enemies. Additionally, she is also about choosing whether to do A or B in the given scenario.

This should be her strength and niche over every other support, moreso than peel Janna, sustain Soraka , mobility Rakan, etc.

These changes are made to not only make Lulu's current play pattern of "just polymorph whoever dives your ADC and Ulti them" less potent, but also makes her play pattern more interesting with some quality of life changes, as well as shifting some of her power from other areas more to buffs and debuffs specifically.

  1. Passive was changed because I personally never liked how Lulu's passive's only real strength is it provides damage. Didn't make much sense to me. Now has a reason to wanna hit people with pix Bolts beyond just damage, both herself and with an ally helping her.

  2. Q change is mostly just the change it should of had to begin with. This makes Lulu less favorable in other lanes without gutting her, but also makes her less potent their via the weaker wave clear without making her poke a joke. Since this is Lulu's only reliable damaging spell, this is her only way to proc her Shrink debuff, so their is counterplay here.

  3. Some power from W polymorh was shifted into her new Shrink passive and given an interaction to make it more trade off based and with more thinking and risk/reward in using the spell itself as opposed to just whether to cast it on an ally or enemy. Enemies now have the chance to at least flash away while polymorphed and the flat duration was lowered, making it less of an "oh shit" reactionary button. Getting the most out of the spell will now require more set up, as one would have to first Shrink a target to extend the Shrink Debuffs duration using Polymorh, similar to Malzahar 's Space Aids getting extended with his Q.

  4. Changes to E make it so she can't just Click E for free instant damage in lane anymore, but in exchange, she has more of A Zoning tool for Q's and Pix bolts. Because Pix can be placed and then picked up by allies, this also opens up a bunch of avenues for play making potential for Lulu and her team, while also giving a form of counterplay for the enemy, as they can deny the shield by taking the (small) pix Damage and having him tag them instead. Ofc, lulu always has the option to simply use E on the ally directly when possible. Pix also now has a travel time (much faster than Orianna's Ball i must stress), (think Katarina E.) to make it more clear what lulu is contributing to the fight and the team.

  5. R Changes were to take away more general power from her. Even though her Ultimate ISN'T a heal, (it doesn't even interact with https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/03/Windspeaker%27s_Blessing_mastery_2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20151103094744 ), some people argue that it can act as a Pseudo heal. This change makes it so it is less effective on champions not stacking Health, and thus means it is Less of a heal option. In exchange, it now Buffs tanky health stackers with even more bonus Heath, making using it to protect an ally more of a sacrifice than using it on the allied tank to buff them. The AoE slow was made more conditional because I feel it is kinda tacked on power. Making it so the slow only appears when the Ultied target is Shielded by lulu E i feel makes it use more deliberate, and lowers her Ults potency as just a single powerful auto peel option.

I strongly feel these changes will push Lulu into a more niche direction, without outright taking away her ability to do things she can do now, simply making it to where she has to work more to achieve similar results than currently when doing things such as peel, which should be Janna's niche.

Thoughts? I'd really appreciate feedback on this.

Especially from you CancerousLuLu

6 Comments

ZephyrDrake3 votes

so you want her shield to be this inconsistent thing that relies way too much on allies and enemies for it to be useful in the slightest? unless the shield is stupidly high this is a terrible idea. You always want to be able to shield your teammates without risking them being stupid and just moving out of the way. It's already bad enough with skills behave similarly and have your teammates run away from you/your skillshot... also why is her ult scale off the targets AP? and why does it now have a random HP scaling? those are two things that Lulu does no care about, no matter if you are support or mid or top or any type of Lulu.

This won't do anything for Lulu that is good in any way. You have some random bonus damage after a random # of stacks is applied, some random shrinking mechanic that could be decent or just plain stupidly broken depending on numbers and then you have an unreliable shield along with very questionable scalings added to her ult

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I think they had a "Bard heal pad" in mind, where it's possible to cast it directly on allies. Other than that, I agree about the shrink and ult scaling.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

so you want her shield to be this inconsistent thing that relies way too much on allies and enemies for it to be useful in the slightest? unless the shield is stupidly high this is a terrible idea. You always want to be able to shield your teammates without risking them being stupid and just moving out of the way. It's already bad enough with skills behave similarly and have your teammates run away from you/your skillshot...

No, it snaps to allies like Bard Heal. Allies simply have the option to Pix up Pix if you leave him out for them. You would still be shielding allies effectively the same as live when using it with this change, You would just also have the option to say, place him under tower so your LeeSin can pix up a shield during a dive without you having to go into tower range yourself for example.

also why is her ult scale off the targets AP?

Sorry, that was a typo. I mean Max HP.

and why does it now have a random HP scaling? Those are two things that Lulu does no care about, no matter if you are support or mid or top or any type of Lulu.

I figured the HP scaling would make it so it compensates for the overall flat power it had before the change, as it would get scaling off of the HP items support Lulu gets. item 2045 item 3107 etc. This would also make it less OP for Solo Lane Lulu. It would also open up lulu's itemisation just a tad more, to items like Knight's Vow or Righteous Glory. (even if they aren't super good on her or anything. It also just makes sense logistically because of how the spell works and what it does.

This won't do anything for Lulu that is good in any way. You have some random bonus damage after a random # of stacks is applied, some random shrinking mechanic that could be decent or just plain stupidly broken depending on numbers .

Soo,, you admit that the only problem would be numbers then? I don't see the issue here.

and then you have an unreliable shield along with very questionable scalings added to her ult

Already addressed this.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

bump?

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I don't really like the shrink gimmick. I feel it creates more problems than it solves. Currently, Lulu can shut down a diver or marksman for a couple of seconds with W, but beyond that there's a window where she can't do that. If Pixie Dust is applied via Pix's bolts and you put Pix on a marksman, that is going to stack super fast (3 autos nothing for a Cait, Kog, Jinx ,etc), and you've basically got a convoluted way of doing the same thing as Polymorph, only worse because it decreases any resistances the target stacked up against that marksman. Lulu already excels at enabling a ranged-AD. Shrink will just make her a monster. And it doesn't offer any change to her combos because a Lulu would have Shielded marksman, Q/W assailants anyways, this is just rewarding her more for doing so. And maybe she holds onto Q for a second longer. Also, since she doesn't even have a ton of damage (and even less if you change her E as suggested) her passive is supposed to provide some of that. If you look at other high utility supports like Braum or Bard, they have basically one damage ability (their Qs) and an auto attack passive for more damage. I think a similar design philosophy is used hear with Lulu.

Q - Whatever. I disagree in nerfing her waveclear any further as I think they've about found a happy medium as far as her solo laning is concerned: She still enables a carry while allowing for another support in a different position, but trades off a lot of damage and her Glitterlance wave clear is not what it used to be (I think LeBlanc and Syndra can wave clear faster even, very rare someone can't clear better than Lulu). But seeing as it doesn't really affect her support, it's not a completely unheard of change.

W - Covered most of it above. You basically took out power from Polymorph and put it into a modified passive that achieves a similar thing, if not worse. 2.25 is long, but it's nothing compared to resistance reduction combined with not being able to auto. I don't see it being a problem early, but late game it makes it even harder to get to the marksman effectively. Also, it would be really strange to see a cupcake fear people around it or whatever.

E - I actually like the idea of putting it on the ground, almost like a Zilean bomb, but have it prioritize shielding allies, that way in the mess of a team fight you aren't just throwing it onto enemies when that's not what you want. It could make it more of a vision/shield option instead of damage/shield option. Although I'd like to point out that I always thought the tradeoff of using E on an enemy was that you lost her shield, which could be crucial depending on the fight. And you had to pay attention to Pix's position if you want that guaranteed Glitterlance, I've seen plenty of Lulus miss it after E, not paying attention to where Pix is around the target.

Ult - Coming from someone who likes to use Wild Growth to follow up on engages (like a diver going in) being forced to basically use both shield and ult on the same target really stunts her protection ability. I guess that's sort of the point, but the cases where Lulu would follow up a Shyv or Malphite ult seem way crappier. On top of that, the number one way I use it is rescuing allies, and that's been nerfed too. I suppose you mean it scales on the ally's Health? Or on their AP? I'm confused. From what I can tell, it's not as good on marksman, which is usually Lulu's number 1 concern. She LANES with a marksman (usually), so an ult that would better serve a tank or mage is sort of weird.

I personally feel like all the Lulu banning is unwarranted. Sure she's great at basically allowing the most fed person on her team to carry, but that's just it; someone else on her team has to be able to carry. She can't really do it on her own. She's a decent laner who excels vs mage supports, struggles against sustain supports, and can turn a fed person into a buff monster. When her team is behind, she has options by having the tools to get her mates out of sticky situations. But she doesn't have engage (like a Rakan, Ali or even Bard), she doesn't have hard CC(like Nami, Janna, Ali, many others) beyond her ult which she would prefer to save for rescues and interrupts, she doesn't have sustain (like Soraka or Nami) she's not even the strongest poke/wave clear support (I would give that honor to Karma). She excels at buffing her teammates and providing short-term peel in the form of primarily her W, and I think any changes should focus on that.

Just my random, somewhat scattered thoughts.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I don't really like the shrink gimmick. I feel it creates more problems than it solves. Currently, Lulu can shut down a diver or marksman for a couple of seconds with W, but beyond that there's a window where she can't do that. If Pixie Dust is applied via Pix's bolts and you put Pix on a marksman, that is going to stack super fast (3 autos nothing for a Cait, Kog, Jinx ,etc), and you've basically got a convoluted way of doing the same thing as Polymorph, only worse because it decreases any resistances the target stacked up against that marksman.

Well first, like I said, Lulu can only Proc Shrink with Q. So she would have to hold on to it for the moment the target has the stacks on them before she can Shrink them. Also, calling it "a convoluted way of doing the same thing as a Polymorph" isn't really at all accurate. Polymorph is for intents and purposes, a 2.25 second Silence, Blind and Slow.

Shrinking Debuff would lower damage and resistances by a flat amount based on level. Not really the same thing at all.

Lulu already excels at enabling a ranged-AD.

Well sure, but the point of the change is to take generalist power away from her and push her more to what her niche is.

Shrink will just make her a monster. And it doesn't offer any change to her combos because a Lulu would have Shielded marksman, Q/W assailants anyways,

This is inacurate. The enemy now has a window to act in that they didnt before. Since shrinking requires stacks, it means that ther eis a downtime before it can even be activated, and lulu must then Q to even activate it, meanign there is even the opportunity to avoid it all together on the opponents end.

A Zed could now outright Dodge it using his ultimate, a Talon or Akali could avoid even getting stacked via their Stealth ect.

And Since Polymorph duration has been lowered, as well as opponants having the ability to cast Summoners such as Flash/Hal or Barrier, it makes it less oppressive and thus requires Lulu be more skillful and proactive to achieve similar results as current.

this is just rewarding her more for doing so.

Quite the opposite.

And maybe she holds onto Q for a second longer.

Well, lulu isn't gonna basically NEVER Q. She is gonna use it to help her team disengage or chase, etc. Opponents now have a CD to keep track of for when it is down.

Also, since she doesn't even have a ton of damage (and even less if you change her E as suggested) her passive is supposed to provide some of that. If you look at other high utility supports like Braum or Bard, they have basically one damage ability (their Qs) and an auto attack passive for more damage. I think a similar design philosophy is used hear with Lulu.

Except for the fact that her E does instant damage, yes.

I mean, the idea was that Shrinking Targets would lower their defense, thereby indirectly increasing her damage.

Q - Whatever. I disagree in nerfing her waveclear any further as I think they've about found a happy medium as far as her solo laning is concerned: She still enables a carry while allowing for another support in a different position, but trades off a lot of damage and her Glitterlance wave clear is not what it used to be (I think LeBlanc and Syndra can wave clear faster even, very rare someone can't clear better than Lulu). But seeing as it doesn't really affect her support, it's not a completely unheard of change.

The change wasn't to be ADDED on top of current. The idea was to revert the nerf to her Q and have this change be applied instead. Her wave clear would be the same as it is now. The difference would just be her Poke isn't as crap.

W - Covered most of it above. You basically took out power from Polymorph and put it into a modified passive that achieves a similar thing, if not worse. 2.25 is long, but it's nothing compared to resistance reduction combined with not being able to auto.

When did I say shrunk targets couldn't auto attack? Hell, shrunk targets can still cast spells.

I don't see it being a problem early, but late game it makes it even harder to get to the marksman effectively. Also, it would be really strange to see a cupcake fear people around it or whatever.

How would a cupcake fear people around it?

E - I actually like the idea of putting it on the ground, almost like a Zilean bomb, but have it prioritize shielding allies, that way in the mess of a team fight you aren't just throwing it onto enemies when that's not what you want.

Actually, I had it act more like Orianna Q + Bard Heal, where you coudl snap-cast it to allies, making it effectively the same in terms of shielding as it currently is.

It could make it more of a vision/shield option instead of damage/shield option.

Exactly!

Although I'd like to point out that I always thought the tradeoff of using E on an enemy was that you lost her shield, which could be crucial depending on the fight.

Same, which is partially why I had this change. Currently, using E as a damage tool is basically screwing yourself over 9/10 past the 20 minute mark, so accidentally usign E on enemies is stupidly punishing and easy to do accidentally. Conversely, Casting it in lane for instant free harass is kinda dumb admittedly, so i shifted that power away from it to be more of a zoning/vision tool like you said.

And you had to pay attention to Pix's position if you want that guaranteed Glitterlance, I've seen plenty of Lulus miss it after E, not paying attention to where Pix is around the target.

Yea, Pix's position is basically delayed by a second relative to there the back of the champ was prior. So enemies who know what they are doing will just walk in circles randomly to throw you off. Not that ti matters given how mediocre Lulu's Q currently is. It's kind of just hidden knowledge/power in terms of the matchup in my eyes and isn't really engaging for either player.

Ult - Coming from someone who likes to use Wild Growth to follow up on engages (like a diver going in) being forced to basically use both shield and ult on the same target really stunts her protection ability. I guess that's sort of the point, but the cases where Lulu would follow up a Shyv or Malphite ult seem way crappier. On top of that, the number one way I use it is rescuing allies, and that's been nerfed too.

Admittedly, the change to the AoE slow was probably oen fo the more random/tacked on changes i put there, and i wouldnt have any objections to it being omitted entirely.

That said, I feel you don't really need to use both, its more of a commitment thing.

I suppose you mean it scales on the ally's Health? Or on their AP? I'm confused.

Yea twas a Type, my b.

From what I can tell, it's not as good on marksman, which is usually Lulu's number 1 concern. She LANES with a marksman (usually), so an ult that would better serve a tank or mage is sort of weird.

The only area it is really less good on the marksman is as a sustain option. it Still has the AoE knock up as it does currently and shielding said ally gives them the AOE slow you are currently familiar with.

I personally feel like all the Lulu banning is unwarranted. Sure she's great at basically allowing the most fed person on her team to carry, but that's just it; someone else on her team has to be able to carry. She can't really do it on her own.

I mean, while true, you basically described every support in the game here.

She's a decent laner who excels vs mage supports, struggles against sustain supports, and can turn a fed person into a buff monster. When her team is behind, she has options by having the tools to get her mates out of sticky situations. But she doesn't have engage (like a Rakan, Ali or even Bard), she doesn't have hard CC(like Nami, Janna, Ali, many others) beyond her ult which she would prefer to save for rescues and interrupts, she doesn't have sustain (like Soraka or Nami) she's not even the strongest poke/wave clear support (I would give that honor to Karma). She excels at buffing her teammates and providing short-term peel in the form of primarily her W, and I think any changes should focus on that.

Just my random, somewhat scattered thoughts.

While I agree and sympathize with your statements, (I have been saying almost word for word everything you just posted in this last paragraph all over the forum), I still feel that a similar change to what I am proposing is needed, if not only to make her less polarizing a champion goign forward, but also just to make her just a tad more deep.

Lulu's laning phase currently is rather bland right now. Lulu doesn't truly start to get exciting to play until mid game when skirmishes and teamfights start in her current state, and any changes they ever give her seem to either make her a priority pick o trash tier. And we all know what we do to champions like those.

Btw, thanks for taking the time to make this long post in reply to my topic. it was a nice read and a appreciate it!

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