Riot, it's time to stop. The support changes are unacceptable.

ChaddyFantome··100 votes·4,819 views

Look. I'm gonna be real with you. I have been talking about how item 2049 is a problematic item and worse than the likes of WOTA and the like before it. But once again Riot, you make the same mistake you made when back in Season 4 all over again, only worse.

SightStone remains in the game as a crutch for the game design, and is made intentionally slot inefficient to force it to be a burden on a given player as opposed to making it attractive to every role (because that would be broken). And of course, the support gets left with that job because ofc they do.

While removing the item was in my honest opinion a necessary step, this was perhaps the worst possible way to do it.

Instead of actually removing the item, you instead removed all the work you put into making the support role more fun, attractive and fulfilling via unique quests with unique buffs and actives to instead give people_** the permission**_ to ward like they currently do with item 2049, without actually having to buy it.

I don't think it is hard to see what the problem here is, but for those who might not see where i am coming from, they essentially replaced FUN and UNIQUE appeal from the role with elements that are already generally deemed less compelling about it.

Now some people might claim that it is a "worthwhile tradeoff", because the old items can be turned into new ones and now you don't have to spend 800g early game for SS. Lemme explain to you why i disagree with these notions.

  1. You no longer have the OPTION to opt into SS early now. Riot has stated that one of the reasons they felt comfortable with this change is because the item 3504 Rush meta showed them that the game can function without us having to rush item 2049 . There are 3 major problems with this. The first is that it wasn't that the game "functioned without early vision" so much as it was that "rushing Ardent was by and far so powerful that it overrided the importance of early vision". Riot is putting the cart before the horse here with this jump in conclusions.

  2. You have now taken away an option AWAY from the player. For the sake of argument, lets say that the conclusion Riot came to is, nonetheless, correct and the game is in fact fine without early vision. OK. But now with this change, you've effectively REMOVED the option to opt into said early vision all together. If the game had reached a state where support players can be fine without necessarily HAVING to rush Sightstone, then shouldn't that have been good enough? The problem with Sightstone was how it was an artificial burden on the role as opposed to an actual compelling or exciting aspect of it, on top of it being obligatory gold sick no matter what type of champion you were playing in the role. It's power was so great that it was deemed mandatory to rush it, which lead to stale and thoughtless gameplay with no real meaningful decisions making involved. If the game then reached a point where it was a viable option to opt into more power and delay ones purchase of the item, then it is evidence that the item already reached a much healthier spot as is. The argument that "players like rushing powerful items and Sightstone gets in the way of that" doesn't hold up when by your own admission, players didn't even have to rush it necessarily anymore. The result is you merely take away the gameplay option from players that would prefer to opt into it early on, removing a choice from the game as opposed to creating more, ON TOP of taking away fun and engaging aspects of the role on top of THAT in the process.

  3. The argument of more new items doesn't hold up either. those items will now be burdened by either having to not fit into your build of which you will not be able to reach the end of anyway. People who were already getting the Eye items effectively got a net nerf, because all that has happened is power has been taken away from them only for them to have to buy it back again later, except with the likelihood of not even being able to do so. If i was buying the item 2303 item 2301 item 2302, I was already making the sacrifice of the active and stats for the slot efficiency. The net result of the changes for me in this scenario is now I'm just lose out on getting my quest buff.

If i was buying item 3092 item 3401 item 3069 , I was opting into it for the actives and stats in the first place, and wasn't necessarily fully upgrading Sightstone right away, not that it would be a bad option given its item active CD, which would compliment it. I am now stuck with having to buy what is effectively a worse Eye item that i already rejected in favor of the Active version, and now have to buy the item with the active attached to it separately on top of that, with no option of active CDR either to boot. Nobody wins here.

The only arguably good thing this brought is the option to get the actives that were once tied to said items on more widespread builds, since Support items could not be bought together, making it previously impossible to get Tali active if you got any support item but item 3301 , but unless the item actives are stupidly cheap (and therefore broken) I don't see this as even remotely a fair exchange. hell, i don't think it would be worth it even then.

What perplexes me the most is the choice of removing support quests all together, given there was no real obligation to do so.

I understand the actives since you can't have both at the same time, but Support quest buffs were passive effects. What was stopping you from simply leaving them be and having both warding AND support quest buffs unlocked at their respective threshold? Was it to much of an instant power boost perhaps? Then don't make them happen at the same time!

84 Comments

Anatera45 votes

Your post is quite detailed and informative. Riot will surely take ALL of it into consideration as they ignore everything and their next patch addresses none of it.

HR5OdeMImE7 votes

As usual.

Chermorg6 votes

A post being detailed and informative does not mean that the Riot game designers will change their long term (5-6 month) vision for the game.

Anatera7 votes

Yeah, god forbid they listen to someone with good ideas.

NekoniClaws15 votes

Great post.

Dorans Pants11 votes

well done. glad there are others who see it that way. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

DeadUnborn8 votes

Your arguments are very flawed

First of, removing the option of early vision bot lane is an improvement. It wasn't super aparent because vision isn´t as obviously powerful as say, damage. However between bot lane having 2 players (4 trinket wards super early) and then rushing the sightstone, bot lane became ungankable vs competent supports (excluding the super gankers like zac, lee and rek). Now support items will effectively work like jungle items. They let you define if you are a damage dealer, tanky guy or utility support. The uniqueness will come from the other items you will be able to buy (which you say won't work because you think they won´t). Quests were ok, but unique items effectively does the same.

ChaddyFantome7 votes

{quoted}

Your arguments are very flawed

First of, removing the option of early vision bot lane is an improvement.
It wasn't super aparent because vision isn´t as obviously powerful as say, damage. However between bot lane having 2 players (4 trinket wards super early) and then rushing the sightstone, bot lane became ungankable vs competent supports (excluding the super gankers like zac, lee and rek).

Im a support player, so you best believe i know how powerful vision is. i think i made it quite clear I understand it in my OP. I'm aware of this argument, but it doesn't hold up. Between Future's market, Zombie Ward, trinkets etc, the option of Sightstone isn't gonna make a difference purely from the ganking perspective. What it is gonna cause issues for is the more proactive use of wards, like objective control or spying in enemy jungle etc.

Whatsmore is that the support opting for it was choosing it over actual stats or even upgrading their income items to actually make a powerful presence in lane or to protect their lane partner from the gank.

A lot of times, the vision from the gank isn't as important as the ability to actually defend ones self from a gank, and a supp likes stats and items for that.

That is where the trade off with SS currently is, but I digress. This is largely missing the point. I am not saying that SS shouldn't be removed. Like I said in my OP, it should have been removed 3 seasons ago. My problem is with_ the way they are choosing to do so._

Now support items will effectively work like jungle items. They let you define if you are a damage dealer, tanky guy or utility support. The uniqueness will come from the other items you will be able to buy (which you say won't work because you think they won´t). Quests were ok, but unique items effectively does the same.

Thanks for making it clear you don't actually play the support role.

This change does the exact opposite.

The thing about jungle items is that you can opt into AD, DPS, Magic Aoe damage or Tankiness, and even choose between vision, a slow or more dueling power. Currently, the support items do a similar thing where you can either choose between Poke and ability power for utility scaling, Tankiness and durability, or longevity and pure utility via the quest buffs from the 3 items. On top of that, you had the option to choose to opt even deeper via the actives or slot efficiency via the eye items.

With these changes, all your support item equates to is "which item allows me to get access to my wards faster". There is no more thought or choice behind it.

Before, if I chose say Lulu , I would have to ask myself. "Do i want the SpeedBoost from the item 3303 quest this game?" "How reliably will i be able to proc it in this lane?" "Do i want/need the Spooky Ghost active? or an open slot" or Do i want the team MS boost, mana coins from item 3301 quest?" Can i reliably pick the coins up to get it?" , Do i want/need the Shurelia's Active or an open slot" etc, etc, etc.

None of that exists with these changes. The only difference now is how you farm your gold. There is no longer as much decision or thought in picking one or the other because all you get is the permission to ward now.

Before, I had to think about whether i wanted that dank Gold and mana on assist and team MS vs dat dank Speed boost on damaging enemies ON TOP of whether i was gonna get an Eye or the Active versions. None of this exists anymore.

DeadUnborn3 votes

queue the text wall.

only worthwhile part

Like I said in my OP, it should have been removed 3 seasons ago. My problem is with the way they are choosing to do so

How would you have sighstone removed then?


Your entire argument is held up on speculation. You have no idea what new items will be released, what runes will be changed and if item prices will be adjusted.

Just to illustrate...

with these changes, all your support item equates to is "which item allows me to get access to my wards faster". There is no more thought or choice behind it.

Speculation, reward earn rates can be adjusted and normalized to be equal

Between Future's market, Zombie Ward, trinkets etc, the option of Sightstone isn't gonna make a difference purely from the ganking perspective

Speculation, opting into those runes means the champions who take them cut their damage and you don't know if they will be meta

Before, if I chose say , I would have to ask myself. "Do i want the SpeedBoost from the quest this game?" "How reliably will i be able to proc it in this lane?" "Do i want/need the Spooky Ghost active? or an open slot" or Do i want the team MS boost, mana coins from quest?" Can i reliably pick the coins up to get it?" , Do i want/need the Shurelia's Active or an open slot" etc, etc, etc.

Speculation, Riot has only confirmed the active part of the items will be gone, not specific passives... you have no idea if the quests will have additional perks to unlocking wards


Thanks for making it clear you don't actually play the support role.

This change does the exact opposite.

The thing about jungle items i that you can opt into AD, DPS, Magic Aoe damage or Tankiness, and even choose between vision, a slow or more dueling power. Currently, the support items do a similar thing where you can either choose between Poke and ability power for utility scaling, Tankiness and durability, or longevity and pure utility via the quest buffs from the 3 items. On top of that, you had the option to choose to opt even deeper via the actives or slot efficiency via the eye items.

With these changes, all your support item equates to is "which item allows me to get access to my wards faster". There is no more thought or choice behind it.

hu? exact opposite? same shit as choosing which enchantment to take? Unless you mean the smite part? that is taking a summoner spell into the equation, not comparable as supports can customize exhaust, ignite, heal.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

queue the text wall.

only worthwhile part

How would you have sightstone removed then?


If i had an answer for that, i would have presented it a long time ago. But surely you aren't trying to make the fallacious assertion that i can't point out how bad a change is, especially when it results in a net negative outcome JUST because i don't have a better alternative, yes? Because regardless, the better alternative would be not to make the change to begin with.

Your entire argument is held up on speculation. You have no idea what new items will be released, what runes will be changed and if item prices will be adjusted.

???????????

I don't have to know what other changes they will make to the game to know that the one that they have presented to us is a bad one, because the thing that makes it bad has nothing to do with extrinsic game elements im regards to the actual balance of the game.

I don't know what you are fishing for, but I'd recommend using an actual Fishing pole.

Just to illustrate...

Speculation, reward earn rates can be adjusted and normalized to be equal Speculation, opting into those runes means the champions who take them cut their damage and you don't know if they will be meta

What does any of this have to do with my point? I don't care about something being strong or meta. i care about the game being fun and well designed, and having an acceptable amount of parity. I can spam Jungle Evelynn for elo just fine.

These options exist across every tree and is gonna be taken one way or the other. if it isn't, it is a choice the player has to actively make that will now be taken away since they have no other alternative and will be pressured to do so to make up for the vision void this change will make.

Speculation, Riot has only confirmed the active part of the items will be gone, not specific passives... you have no idea if the quests will have additional perks to unlocking wards

Thanks for proving you didn't actually read because YES THEY DID in fact state the current quest buffs are being removed, effectively claiming "eh, no one really cared about these all that much anyway", which is asinine. Actually do some research next time.

hu? exact opposite? same shit as choosing which enchantment to take? Unless you mean the smite part? that is taking a summoner spell into the equation, not comparable as supports can customize exhaust, ignite, heal.

How does this address the point i made in any capacity? The change isn't locking you into a summoner spell regardless. What are you even saying?

NorthernRedStar4 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't super aparent because vision isn´t as obviously powerful as say, damage. However between bot lane having 2 players (4 trinket wards super early) and then rushing the sightstone, bot lane became ungankable vs competent supports (excluding the super gankers like zac, lee and rek).

Im a support player, so you best believe i know how powerful vision is. i think i made it quite clear I understand it in my OP. I'm aware of this argument, but it doesn't hold up. Between Future's market, Zombie Ward, trinkets etc, the option of Sightstone isn't gonna make a difference purely from the ganking perspective. What it is gonna cause issues for is the more proactive use of wards, like objective control or spying in enemy jungle etc.

Whatsmore is that the support opting for it was choosing it over actual stats or even upgrading their income items to actually make a powerful presence in lane or to protect their lane partner from the gank.

A lot of times, the vision from the gank isn't as important as the ability to actually defend ones self from a gank, and a supp likes stats and items for that.

That is where the trade off with SS currently is, but I digress. This is largely missing the point. I am not saying that SS shouldn't be removed. Like I said in my OP, it should have been removed 3 seasons ago. My problem is with_ the way they are choosing to do so._

Thanks for making it clear you don't actually play the support role.

This change does the exact opposite.

The thing about jungle items is that you can opt into AD, DPS, Magic Aoe damage or Tankiness, and even choose between vision, a slow or more dueling power. Currently, the support items do a similar thing where you can either choose between Poke and ability power for utility scaling, Tankiness and durability, or longevity and pure utility via the quest buffs from the 3 items. On top of that, you had the option to choose to opt even deeper via the actives or slot efficiency via the eye items.

With these changes, all your support item equates to is "which item allows me to get access to my wards faster". There is no more thought or choice behind it.

Before, if I chose say Lulu , I would have to ask myself. "Do i want the SpeedBoost from the item 3303 quest this game?" "How reliably will i be able to proc it in this lane?" "Do i want/need the Spooky Ghost active? or an open slot" or Do i want the team MS boost, mana coins from item 3301 quest?" Can i reliably pick the coins up to get it?" , Do i want/need the Shurelia's Active or an open slot" etc, etc, etc.

None of that exists with these changes. The only difference now is how you farm your gold. There is no longer as much decision or thought in picking one or the other because all you get is the permission to ward now.

Before, I had to think about whether i wanted that dank Gold and mana on assist and team MS vs dat dank Speed boost on damaging enemies ON TOP of whether i was gonna get an Eye or the Active versions. None of this exists anymore.

This guy gets it. Riot is dumping down the role.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

Your arguments are very flawed

First of, removing the option of early vision bot lane is an improvement. It wasn't super aparent because vision isn´t as obviously powerful as say, damage. However between bot lane having 2 players (4 trinket wards super early) and then rushing the sightstone, bot lane became ungankable vs competent supports (excluding the super gankers like zac, lee and rek). Now support items will effectively work like jungle items. They let you define if you are a damage dealer, tanky guy or utility support. The uniqueness will come from the other items you will be able to buy (which you say won't work because you think they won´t). Quests were ok, but unique items effectively does the same.

Ungankable my ass. Turrets do very little to stop dives at 5m on.

DeadUnborn1 votes

that depends on which side of the tri bush you are. If we cut hyperboles dives are probably not happening until the 10 min mark and that depends on how low you are

KoggyStyle8 votes

i quit maining support when they removed pinks during stealth rework, control wards suck balls.

Mokuto Bunshi4 votes

Hey support, they got a shaco jungle and a vayne adc, buy a pink ward so we can fight back. Me: Uhhhhh we can't use control wards to see them... Me: maybe we can get sweeper lenses and you hit them with... Tristana: ...with.... my what? Me: Uhhhh.......

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mokuto Bunshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7T49kb1y,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-01-12T08:21:50.085+0000)

Hey support, they got a shaco jungle and a vayne adc, buy a pink ward so we can fight back. Me: Uhhhhh we can't use control wards to see them... Me: maybe we can get sweeper lenses and you hit them with... Tristana: ...with.... my what? Me: Uhhhh.......

W! [sg-lulu]

Mokuto Bunshi2 votes

XD I'm imagining her jumping into Shaco box or Vayne condemn XD [sg-miss-fortune]

The Yetii Rider5 votes

The Eye items are much cheaper. They're like 1500 gp each now. That's the benefit.

As for losing the quests -

Coin is uninteractive. Captain boots were removed for a reason. There is almost no expression of skill with Coin.

Relic never scaled, it was always just an extra 300 health or so. Good in the early game, barely noticeable late. And ADCs were abusing it

Spellthief I genuinely feel you on, a burst of MS tied to a condition with a cooldown is super interesting and made for great plays, but this one item isn't worth preserving for the benefit of support players as a whole

ChaddyFantome3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7T49kb1y,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-01-12T00:52:54.551+0000)

The Eye items are much cheaper. They're like 1500 gp each now. That's the benefit.

=Citation need= That said, this really is missing the point. The core issue here isn't about the actual balance of the game.

As for losing the quests - Coin is uninteractive. Captain boots were removed for a reason.

That reason being Riot gave up on trying to balance Boot enchantments. People actually really missed them and asked that it be at least moved to another item. lo and behold Coin does that now.

There is almost no expression of skill with Coin.

It was a benefit of getting access to more Gold and Mana on kill and assists. How is there no skill expression? It encourages and rewards given behaviors with a conditional reward. That mana regen on the Blue coins in particular make a significant difference on some champions in the midgame like Sona as well.

Stop using buzzwords without understanding when they are adequately applicable.

Relic never scaled, it was always just an extra 300 health or so. Good in the early game, barely noticeable late.

Relic scaled with Healing/Shielding Power from items and Masteries. If i was playing Taric and Bought a item 3107 and had Revitalize in my Runes, the shield would be empowered. Whats more is that the shield regens on Spoils of War procs, and out of combat. It was far from OP, but it was good, and more importantly, SATISFYING and COMPELLING to get and use.

And that is the core issue here with these changes as they dumb down and make the role more bland and unfulfilling.

And ADCs were abusing it

And there we have it. the REAL reason for our troubles. How abut instead of completely butchering an entire Position, we just fix it so ADCs don't abuse it? I'm sick and tired of every other role getting shit because ADC's are abuse everyone elses' toys.

Spellthief I genuinely feel you on, a burst of MS tied to a condition with a cooldown is super interesting and made for great plays, but this one item isn't worth preserving for the benefit of support players as a whole

I disagree, mostly because I disagree with the idea that the other Quests weren't compelling.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Citation provided, because apparently you can't be bothered to look into the items you complain about before commenting on them: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-96W4KN3hdwk/WlVZr3tP1II/AAAAAAAA2iE/wi4-CriPsUMi8oPh95nhdRl-EXWwfT30wCLcBGAs/s1600/ascended.jpg

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html#sight

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7T49kb1y,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2018-01-12T01:18:08.771+0000)

Citation provided, because apparently you can't be bothered to look into the items you complain about before commenting on them: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-96W4KN3hdwk/WlVZr3tP1II/AAAAAAAA2iE/wi4-CriPsUMi8oPh95nhdRl-EXWwfT30wCLcBGAs/s1600/ascended.jpg

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html#sight

And apparently you can't be bothered to actually read/address anything past the first line. Thanks for the snark tho. Citation received.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

I definitely read. Saw no point in addressing.

Ahri Baka4 votes

I'll miss when I Syndra support and run to my lane with item 3092 item 3165 and active item 3092 and hit all my shots on the enemy Vayne with her Thresh but double kill them , it always worked for me

AmazoX4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7T49kb1y,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-11T15:06:20.324+0000)

I'll miss when I Syndra support and run to my lane with item 3092 item 3165 and active item 3092 and hit all my shots on the enemy Vayne with her Thresh but double kill them , it always worked for me

NIce but sounds like a cancerous play-style to the enemies, haha.

Ahri Baka2 votes

It was cancerous xD even I felt evil after that , and how strong Syndra is , I mean killing the adc will make the supports useless against me obviously a double kill

TwitchInMyPants4 votes

To be frank Riot arguing the Ardent Censer meta was something good is one of the stupidest things I've read in a while

Yes, its good that supports are allowed to buy items and scale like other champions. Rushing a broken item to increase the gold efficiency of another champion whilst playing a shield/heal bot is not scaling yourself and not engaging and they should be aware that we weren't buying that thing so often because WOW I FEEL SO IMPACTFUL BUYING ARDENT CENSER! No we bought it because it was the only real choice on the store, if you didn't rush Ardent and didn't crush your opponent they just immediately outscale you.

TeCoolMage4 votes

On one hand:

  • it puts a bit more pressure for the ADC to start warding as well, as the combined trinkets and control wards make the lane very hard to gank already
  • 800 gold (total of 1300 gold if you count the 500 from support item upgrade which is practically always required as well) will always be a huge amount of gold for supports even late game - so it's not purely an early game problem.
  • When Riot says they want to make players able to get impactful items first, they mean they want to make them able to get ardent even if it's not broken, and the ardent meta was proof that lack of early game vision wasn't game-breaking as many people thought it was. (You know, like how ardent simply made enchanters the meta supports but it's not like preseason runes where several variables made bot lane the center of the game and where the jungler + roaming solo laners should dump all their resources into)

On the other: Vision control is absolutely required at higher elos unless you're that one sona main that acts as the challenger version of support Lux/Annie. The time you get it should be consistent

It should not be tied to support gold generation. At all. Like that's a terrible, terrible idea, don't do it. Managing relic and spellthief stacks, collecting coins, they're all micro-support based skills. in general it's better for the specific champion to need mechanics/micro, and the role to need macro. Do not make the support secondary get their sightstone 5 minutes later purely because they can't play their support item minigame as well as the opposing support main, who already has superior warding knowledge and more gold on top of this new huge advanatage in vision control as well (which the losing team needs more anyway)

Honestly I agree that sightstone is a terrible item. it should be merged with support items, but keep the current rewards and simply make the support item upgrade have the sightstone active right off the bat. (If it's OP for its gold value, just nerf the actual stats or even lower the second upgrade gold generation to compensate) While you're at it why not rework the sightstone system entirely, since it has weird consistencies like arbitrarily requiring more backs regardless of current health or mana to ensure there's always vision.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I agree that sightstone is a terrible item. it should be merged with support items, but keep the current rewards and simply make the support item upgrade have the sightstone active right off the bat. (If it's OP for its gold value, just nerf the actual stats or even lower the second upgrade gold generation to compensate) While you're at it why not rework the sightstone system entirely, since it has weird consistencies like arbitrarily requiring more backs regardless of current health or mana to ensure there's always vision.

I think the reason is because tying it to the final upgrade would mean the player still actively has to "buy Sightstone", and the final upgrade would be ignored as a result, the same way Sightstone is now.

Riot must be thinking that by tying it to Support quests, it will make getting Sightstone an inevitability.

It's still stupid tho. Something like that is not only a pisspoor excuse for a reward, especially compared to the current support quest buffs, but is just poor game structure in general to have tied to something like the gold quests, given how important vision is. it will only snowball the vision game that much harder, especially with things like Zombie Ward in the game.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Well actually I meant putting sightstone on the second upgrade, not the final upgrade, like it currently is planned to be but it's given straight up without needing to do the quest

If need be increase the cost to go from starting support item to second upgrade to 800. It still lowers the support's gold requirement before they can make meaningful build choices from 1300 to 800 which is huge

Zach65082 votes

This is a liginimantly good post. We don't see a lot of those around here, it's mostly just complaining (this one actually gives reason next to complaining)

HoonieFish2 votes

Good post.

Elipo2 votes

Finally someone adressed this. I always chose the items with actives if I upgraded them. Now there's just no reason for me to upgrade them. I loved those actives

Usernamehere12352 votes

I'm going to disagree with this post, and I might say some things which sound mean, but really are not ill-intended.

I think that the problem you have with vision comes with the misconception that support isn't a fun and unique role BECAUSE of the need for vision. I think that you're idea to remove Sightstone is more of a thought that comes from inexperience, and low-elo experience (and I'm not saying this to be mean, I will explain what I mean).

Vision is something that has been core to support as a role for a long time, but I'd argue that vision fundamentally has become less of a support-only job over the few years. There are a few reasons; vision elixirs were removed from the game, same with regular wards. As well, trinkets were added to the game, which means everyone shares at least some part in vision. There's also a limit on warding, meaning that other roles do need to contribute, and lastly control wards are stronger and cheaper than they were in the past.

Now, support as a role has objectively become more unique item-wise since season 2. If you watch a season 2 competitive match, you'll notice that supports will often never complete more than three items at most. Most of their inventory is dedicated to oracle and pinks/greens. Once sightstone was introduced, you'd see them rush that as well. In the current meta, supports have far more items which they can buy, from lvl 1 to lvl 18, all of which provide fairly interesting and dynamic actives. The support items are a part of this, but aren't really interesting purchases anymore because fundamentally they don't provide awesome actives like other support items do. They're less impactful, as well.

So Riot wants to turn a gold generation item, with a fairly neat active (albeit not entirely useful or sometimes even worth building into) into a gold generation/gold efficiency item.

Firstly, I'd argue that vision is a core gameplay mechanic to supports. The reason why specifically low elo players don't really care for vision is because to them, it really isn't as impactful. It's harder for low elo players, even up to platinum, to effectively place, and use vision (there are a plethora of reasons for this, map awareness, lack of game sense and knowledge, etc.).

Secondly, I'd argue that because of all of the other interesting support items that now exist, that support as a role is far more impactful in an active sense than it ever has before. I'd almost go as far as to say the support role is broken because of how strong these characters can be, specifically because of how cheap and effective the items they buy are.

I think that Riot is trying to actively balance support through vision and itemization, and I think that's the best option, because that is historically what the support role has always been about. And it's not because Riot deemed the role to be so; it's because that's the most optimal strategy in League of Legends.

My opinion is that support as role needed a nerf, and I think this is a slight nerf. What I do agree with, is that this does take away options from the support. But I think you underestimate just how powerful vision really is, and just how impactful it is at the highest level. Just the fact that supports get sightstone makes them one of most powerful roles in the game, if used properly.

I'd love to have a discussion, so if you have any counter-arguments, please respond.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to disagree with this post, and I might say some things which sound mean, but really are not ill-intended.

I think that the problem you have with vision comes with the misconception that support isn't a fun and unique role BECAUSE of the need for vision.

I can already tell you from the beginning line that you have largely if not completely miss-assessed my position and intentions in regards to the support role.

I think that you're idea to remove Sightstone is more of a thought that comes from inexperience, and low-elo experience (and I'm not saying this to be mean, I will explain what I mean).

Yea, you just confirm'd my original suppositions.

Also, i don't believe you.

Let me make it clear that no. You are wrong. Sightstone's issues aren't arguable. My stance on the item has nothing to do with my personal opinion of the item or how i feel of it personally. The issues of the item are inarguable facts. Sightstone from a game design standpoint exists as a way for Riot to gate the bulk of the vision on the team on 1 player, as a necessity because if everyone had equal reason to get Sightstone and its breadth of wards, vision would be utterly broken. Whatsmore is having vision gated behind 1 player allows them to better control the "levers" of the vision game so to speak.

There is nothing inherently intrinsic to warding and the support role beyond the Support role from a fundamental standpoint. The Support role exists with the purpose of being as useful as possible while making due with the least as possible.

Since there are 3 lanes and 1 jungle, and 5 players, 1 lane by necessity has to have at least more than 1 person. Therefore it is far more efficient to have the fifth player be the guy who works on a limited budget and feed the entire lanes source of income to the 4th player instead, because having 4 well-fed players and 1 underfed one is better than having 3 fed players and 2 malnurited ones, especially with how gold dependent the ADC is.

That's what the Support role is at its core. Your worth as a support is propositional to how much burden you can take off your teams shoulders.

And so sightstone , being stupidly powerful but terribly slot inefficient, is put on the support because it is the most efficient way to access and use the power of the vision it provides.

Sightstone itself isn't compelling, fun or even unique or engaging an item. It exists and is bought as a necessity, and little else.

Now that I've given you a bit of a refresher/history lesson, i just want to open a capsule here to say, none of this is really relevant or important to the grand scheme of my post here, so i fail to see why you are even making this post outside of personal posturing.

Vision is something that has been core to support as a role for a long time, but I'd argue that vision fundamentally has become less of a support-only job over the few years.

Vision has never been intrinsic to the Support role. Vision was designed as a team wide endeavor. It simply became defaulted to the support via the meta because funneling the bulk of the expenses of warding to the one player was far more efficient. Sightstone was then introduced to make the burden on the Support less bad until Season 4 where wards were removed entirely in favor of trinkets to make warding more team oriented . as well as balance the vision game ( since literally the only thing making vision balanced to any degree back then was the player base' own unwillingness to ward in the first place, lol) as it was intended, and Sightstone was kept as a crutch because they realized that they still needed a way to condense gate vision.

There is nothing truly linking the support role to vision fundamentally. If Sightstone was a good item that was interesting to buy, everyone would buy it. The reason it is exists, the reason it bought is because it needs to be.

Not having Sightstone is an inherent handicap because of the power its vision provides. Making someone that isn't the support buy it is a handicap to their builds than just making the support buy it.

Supports wouldn't change at all if warding were magically made the Junglers job for example. It's just no one is gonna do it because it is strictly not as effective.

There are a few reasons; vision elixirs were removed from the game, same with regular wards. As well, trinkets were added to the game, which means everyone shares at least some part in vision. There's also a limit on warding, meaning that other roles do need to contribute, and lastly control wards are stronger and cheaper than they were in the past.

Dude Ive been playing since late Season 2. I don't understand why you'd instantly assume I must've started this game yesterday beyond some vein attempt at propping yourself up.

Now, support as a role has objectively become more unique item-wise since season 2. If you watch a season 2 competitive match, you'll notice that supports will often never complete more than three items at most. Most of their inventory is dedicated to oracle and pinks/greens. Once sightstone was introduced, you'd see them rush that as well. In the current meta, supports have far more items which they can buy, from lvl 1 to lvl 18, all of which provide fairly interesting and dynamic actives. The support items are a part of this, but aren't really interesting purchases anymore because fundamentally they don't provide awesome actives like other support items do. They're less impactful, as well.

yea. I know. I was there. I played it. i lived it. I was there.

Firstly, I'd argue that vision is a core gameplay mechanic to supports.

Well you'd be wrong.

The reason why specifically low elo players don't really care for vision is because to them, it really isn't as impactful. It's harder for low elo players, even up to platinum, to effectively place, and use vision (there are a plethora of reasons for this, map awareness, lack of game sense and knowledge, etc.).

I do care about vision tho. Im a damn support main. I've made peace with that a long time ago. Can you go look for somewhere else to posture please?

Secondly, I'd argue that because of all of the other interesting support items that now exist, that support as a role is far more impactful in an active sense than it ever has before.

Who said otherwise? Im beginning to wonder if you ever even read the whole post.

I'd almost go as far as to say the support role is broken because of how strong these characters can be, specifically because of how cheap and effective the items they buy are.

Im aware. I've been saying this since the beginning of last season. This isn't even a nerf tho. i'd argue its a buff purely from a statistical perspective.

The problem is that this change is bad because it makes the support role less enjoyable and compelling, not whether it make sit weaker or stronger.

I think that Riot is trying to actively balance support through vision and itemization, and I think that's the best option, because that is historically what the support role has always been about. And it's not because Riot deemed the role to be so; it's because that's the most optimal strategy in League of Legends.

No. What Riot is doing it shoehorning Sightstone into a place wher eit feels more intrinsic to the role and less of a forced arbitrary burden.

Currently there is little to no reason you would actually want to buy Sightstone as an item outside of the knowledge that someone has to because of how impactful and powerful it is, and that as the support, you are the one that is expected to do so. it's a crutch and chore by design, and from a game design perspective it is incredibly flawed, and Riot is aware of that.

By introducing the EYE items, Riot introduced an alternative, but that wasn't good enough, because you still had to make the arbitrary choice of buying Sightstone out of necessity for the team as opposed to because it compliments your champion in a way that helps you win. Again, if the job of Sightstone carrier were magically ok on any other role without negatively impacting them, that role would do it. The only reason the support is left with it is because its simply more efficient. SOMEBODY has to carry it and it's simply better if the support does it than the ADC.

With this change, the idea is now there is no sense of "being forced to buy this deadweight for arbitrary reasons" because you aren't actually physically "buying" it now. The problem is all the changes they made in the wake of doing so outweigh the positives of the change.

In the process of doing so, the option of actives on top of support quest buffs were removed and all the depth and nuance it the choosing of support starter items has been removed.

My opinion is that support as role needed a nerf, and I think this is a slight nerf.

it isn't tho.

Supports will now be getting their core items even faster now.

What I do agree with, is that this does take away options from the support. But I think you underestimate just how powerful vision really is, and just how impactful it is at the highest level.

I suggest you reread my post because i make it more than clear that i am are how powerful vision is. if it wasn't powerful, Sightstone would never be bought in the first place, nor would it be a mandatory purchase every game.

Just the fact that supports get sightstone makes them one of most powerful roles in the game, if used properly.

No it doesn't. All it does is make them incredibly important. What makes supports so powerful is how much they bolster and influence the game as a whole, and how much freedom and agency they have in their ability to do so due to not having to do things like manage upkeep of farming minions, and how they have some of the most powerful force enabling abilities bar none.

I'd love to have a discussion, so if you have any counter-arguments, please respond.

Rammus ok

just read the above.

Usernamehere12351 votes

As a preface, please don't attack me personally, and don't make attacks at my character. I'm not posting for postures' sake, and I really just want to have a reasonable discussion without the Boards'y feel that tends to propagate.

My opinion is that sightstone, as you put it, was a crutch because it was effectively a forced buy. If every support builds it every game, it might as well be a passive. Item costs and gold generation have been balanced around the 800g purchase for some time, and so it's definitely a buff in the sense that supports will be getting their items faster (albeit losing the old actives on their gold generation items). I think that the change is good, because effectively it is becoming a passive now.

I think that on a fundamental level we disagree about what support is.

Vision has never been intrinsic to the Support role.

I think, again, that vision is intrinsic to the support role. Support, as a role since it was created, has always been the leader of vision. The reasoning was that it was most efficient, as you pointed out. Now though, that's not necessarily the case, because other roles are simply limited in their vision options.

Your viewpoint would seem to be that supports shouldn't be the vision leaders of the team (otherwise, where would you put sightstone, or any strong vision tool). My viewpoint is that they should be, because that gives the role immense power and skill curve, and is effectively definitive of the role since season 1. But I don't understand

No it doesn't. All it does is make [supports] incredibly important.

Yes, it does. It really does. Vision is objectively a powerful tool, and as such any role that has strong vision tools is powerful. I don't really understand what you mean by no.

When it comes to my original post, I likely shouldn't have posted. I assumed a lot of your intentions, and I was tired so I mostly just ranted, even if there are some nuggets of meaning.

I want to say that I think the sightstone active is best put in the support slots because supports now have a variety of items to buy, thus making the unique gold generation items less interesting (there was also no skill expression, and the actives were often a balancing issue because of how they could be stacked easily with other items/effects).

For the second point in your original post, I think that Riot is opting to make sightstone a gated passive because they would rather have supports building unique items. It's not so much about the lack of necessity for an early sightstone, but more about creating more interesting early purchasing options for supports. In the past, any Lux who skipped a sightstone for damage would have been flamed, because of how powerful and important the tool is. That can't happen anymore, given they start a support item and upgrade it (which they will hopefully do, the stats are not bad and gold generation is core).

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

As a preface, please don't attack me personally, and don't make attacks at my character. I'm not posting for postures' sake, and I really just want to have a reasonable discussion without the Boards'y feel that tends to propagate.>

I recommend not jumping to to baseless, accusatory and instigating assumptions and judgements on the character of the person you are trying to engage in conversation with if that is the case.

Saying "im not trying to be mean" doesn't change the nature and crux of your argument of which prefaces the entirety of your stance.

You start by assuming I'm some low elo noob scrub who doesn't know shit, and go from there, "educating me" about shit as if I'm a dumbass who obviously could not possibly know what i am talking about, without even so much as directly addressing my actual post.

If your goal was to engage in legitimate discussion, you did a miserable job of doing so, let alone presenting yourself in a manner that would lend one to do anything of the sort.

The response I gave were the natural response to a post of that nature, and you quite frankly brought it upon yourself. [zombie-brand-clap]

My opinion is that sightstone, as you put it, was a crutch because it was effectively a forced buy. If every support builds it every game, it might as well be a passive. Item costs and gold generation have been balanced around the 800g purchase for some time, and so it's definitely a buff in the sense that supports will be getting their items faster (albeit losing the old actives on their gold generation items). I think that the change is good, because effectively it is becoming a passive now.

Like i said before, the issue isn't about buffs or nerfs. im not here to discuss how strong or weak this change makes the support role. Hell, the support role is arguably too strong as is and doesn't need any buffs at h moment.

The problem, as i stated, is that it affects the actual engaging and fun elements of the role by taking those away and making it more bland and stale in the process.

I don't care about getting 800g more so i can buy back the effects Riot is taking from me. Simply spending gold in the shop isn't as fun, interesting or engaging as the act of completing unique objectives for unique and exclusive buffs or abilities exclusive to the specific role, let alone making personal choices between item path purchases.

The changes aren't bad because they make supports weaker. They are bad because they make playing support more bland. it waters down the role.

This is a video game, not politics. I'm not here to clamor for privileges to make it easier for me to win games. I'm asking for the game i play to actually be fun and compelling. And especially when it comes o the support role, which most people already don't find that engaging or compelling, taking away from that is one of the worst possible things you can do.

I think that on a fundamental level we disagree about what support is. I think, again, that vision is intrinsic to the support role.

Yes, and I'm afraid your "opinion" of what a support is doesn't mean much by itself. I don't tend nor like to make such statements, but it is simply the case in this regard, and your lack of arguments presented in any sort of attempt to substantiate your "opinion" not only don't help your case, but actively detract from it, as it makes it out as if you simply have none and are choosing to "agree to disagree" in a shot at a middle ground fallacy.

Support, as a role since it was created, has always been the leader of vision. The reasoning was that it was most efficient, as you pointed out.

That's like saying buying Lethality is intrinsic to ADC's back during the lethality meta, or that Ardent Censer is to any champ with a shield. Warding became the Supports job not because they did it the best, but because , as i stated, a supports value is proportional to how much burden they can keep off of everyone elses' shoulders.

The burden of warding became the supports job not out of some form of necessity, or because they performed the task better than anyone else, but instead because making them do it allowed everyone else to do their jobs that bit more efficiently.

There is nothing fundamentally correlative between supports and warding. This is indisputable.

Now if you want to argue that it should become that way due to the history of the role, that is another argument all together. One that I don't mind having, but that is ultimately disconnected from the topic at hand.

Now though, that's not necessarily the case, because other roles are simply limited in their vision options.

??? You completely missed the mark. Other roles are not limited in their vision options. Not anymore than every role was anyway. As i stated before, the only reason Sightstone is bought is because of how impactful the item is via its supply of consistent vision. The item itself outside of that is terribly slot inefficient. If it weren't, everyone would buy it.

Sightstone "sucks" because it has to.

And as i said before, it's the supports job to take the burden off everyone elses' shoulders. That's why it was their job to hold all the team-wide auras back in the day. So that nobody else had to.

If anything, after season 4, people got MORE vision options since trinkets were introduced. the removal of standard wards affected everyone equally from a baseline.

Because of trinkets, people could no longer just burden the support with the entirety of what was always intended to be a teamwide endeavor, and of which was at the higher levels of play (though not to the level it really should have been even still).

Your viewpoint would seem to be that supports shouldn't be the vision leaders of the team (otherwise, where would you put sightstone, or any strong vision tool).

No. Because the claim that they are is an assumption, the crux of the argument being "history", when that isn't an argument. If you want to push forward this idea, you are gonna have to substantiate it first before asserting it as inherently valid by virtue of it being your viewpoint.

But more to the point. No, that is not my stance. My stance is that supports only got tagged with warding because you won more games by forcing the poor guy to do your chores for you. I actually like warding, and participate in it thoroughly whether i am playing support or not, and the core of my appreciation for warding comes from my countless hours in the support role.

What you don't seem to get is that nothing about the support role actually makes them the best fit for the job. It's more like having the leftovers from your siblings plates make up the whole of yours. They didn't get picked because they are the best at "securing vision". They get picked because someone has to do it and no one else does.

My viewpoint is that they should be,

because that gives the role immense power and skill curve,

it really doesn't. Vision isn't something exclusive to the role.

and is effectively definitive of the role since season 1.

And so was killing champions in less than a second for assassins. "History" by itself isn't an argument.

But I don't understand

Yes, it does. It really does. Vision is objectively a powerful tool, and as such any role that has strong vision tools is powerful. I don't really understand what you mean by no.

No, because it isn't a champion by champion case.

With things such as Blitz' hook, or Lulu's Polymorph, these are powerful tools that these champions bring to the table. Because they actually bring them to the table. Because Sightstone is an item, and one that all supports are expected to get by necessity, regardless of personal intent or synergy, this makes it a no sum game.

It isn't so much that it makes you powerful by virtue of you getting it because it is expected, and it is expected regardless of if it was the support to do it or not. Sightstone is bought because it exists, and not getting it puts you at an inherent disadvantage if the enemy actually does.

It's no different from when Ardent Censor was the meta at it's fundamental core.

The importance of Sightstone is not attached or correlative to the supports actually using the item, but to the sheer value and importance of the item in of itself. Its influence is so not so much a power as much as a responsibility. This is why people bitch when supports DON'T by Sightstone. Because not getting it if the enemy does is almost a guaranteed loss at any competent level of play, and from a gameplay and design perspective, this is inherently flawed.

When it comes to my original post, I likely shouldn't have posted. I assumed a lot of your intentions, and I was tired so I mostly just ranted, even if there are some nuggets of meaning.

Understatement of 2018. [sg-lulu]

(cont.)

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted} I want to say that I think the sightstone active is best put in the support slots because supports now have a variety of items to buy,

?? How does essentially removing the Active versions of the Eye items, and forcing you to buy the eye versions, but removing the current quest rewards give you more variety? it does the omission of this CREATE more diversity when all it really does is homogenize the role?

Literally all this change really does in the grand scheme of things for you as a support player is take away your quest buffs, tel you that getting permission to use your sightstone is your new reward, and then give you money to buy back the actives you would or would not have gottem from your Support item anyway.

I am not opposed to this change fundamentally. I am opposed to it because this is the worst way they could have made the change.

Whats worse is that the influx of gold will only encourage people to just play mages botlane again since they can access their powerspike items faster.

thus making the unique gold generation items less interesting (there was also no skill expression, and the actives were often a balancing issue because of how they could be stacked easily with other items/effects).

Nice regurgitation of buzzterms there.

I guess Smite buffs are bad because they have "no skill expression", supposedly. Jesus christ. I suppose all passive effects would be removed.

The skill expression was in how quickly you could properly get your buff before your opponents, as well and use it effectively in multiple situations and scenarios.

Do people claim Rift should be removed because it has no "skill expression?" What about Dragon buffs? No, ofc not. because the buff is the reward for skillful play.

Hell, support buffs have more skill expression than those.

For the second point in your original post, I think that Riot is opting to make sightstone a gated passive because they would rather have supports building unique items.

...no. The reason they are doing it is because buying sightstone is bad game design. Item purchases should be a conscious decision made by the player based on an active decision, not a responsibility.

The reason Sightstone is bought is because it exists and not having one will make you lose more games. there is no thought or decision made in purchasing it.

By shoving it into gold gen items, Riot removed the element of actually purchasing it all together, since gold gen items are the closest thing to an intrinsically linked element to the support role, in the similar vein of how summoner 11 is with Junglers.

Going support without a gold gen item is inherently disadvantageous, since you literally just miss out on gold. By tying it to this item, they make Sightstone an integral part of the support role without the terrible design of having players buy the item. This is good and fine. The problem is that this causes several problems that are not worth the change.

The current support quests as well as the decision between The active Gold gen tier 3 items + Sightstone or the Eye + open slot was the forerunner in being the source of the breadth of the compulsion behind the role.

You has to not only think about which starter item you wanted (since they have different gold generating properties which affect your laning pattern, as well as lead to unique buffs exclusive o the role that were different for each item), but also whether you wanted an open slot or the active version of the gold item + Item CDR.

Pretty much all of this is utterly gone.

All gold quests just give you permission to ward, something that you previously not only could already do, but did out of necessity, rendering the core of the decision of your item purchase being almost purely "which one gets me gold the fastest", as opposed to having to think of the long term consequences of the item of your choosing. Your choice between active + Item CDR or eye + open slot has been reduced to just item + open slot.

Your gold gen items are just glorified sightstones now that you have to earn the permission to ward with.

Having 800g to reinvest back into buying the actives items doesn't make up for that. Spending gold isn't fun in of itself. Its what you get from getting that gold that is fun, and in this case, the net result is still less than what we started with.

It's not so much about the lack of necessity for an early sightstone, but more about creating more interesting early purchasing options for supports.

By Riot's own admission, people don't even need to rush Sightstone anymore as is. So how is this really doing any such thing when there is no void to create? All this is really doing in this regard is taking that option of early Sightstone purchase away from those who opted for it regardless. (raises hand).

In the past, any Lux who skipped a sightstone for damage would have been flamed, because of how powerful and important the tool is. That can't happen anymore, given they start a support item and upgrade it (which they will hopefully do, the stats are not bad and gold generation is core).

Let's gut the support role so autofill supports can't get flamed for not playing the role properly!

Again, i understand and agree with the goal of the change. My problem is that this is a terrible way to do it.

Anags1 votes

Thats a lot of words just saying you're wrong to someone because you say so.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Thats a lot of words just saying you're wrong to someone because you say so.

I take it you didn't read my post?

Altonius Amakiir2 votes

I honestly don't see how the changes on the pbe help the support role. You only ever NEEDED a sightstone if you were going to ward the enemy jungle. There are games where you can't do that because you are being pushed out of lane, and there are champions where that can be too risky as you are too squishy. If you time your wards correctly and don't waste them you can constantly have the river warded(your adc will have to help of course) and 1 lane bush warded. If you need a third or forth bush warded, buy a control ward. Because of this sightstone is just straight unappealing to me in most games. So I don't see how this helps.

On top of this they are removing another support playstyle which I like to do on a few champions(usually only with friends, so don't flame me if you have something against the strat) and that they said they would support. That strategy being smite support. I like to take smite on Nunu support for a ranged targon's if we are losing lane, for an extra heal in lane(on top of potions, consume, and adc's heal), for dragon pressure, and the occasional camp steal if our laners are gone and the jungler's position is known(also because cinderhulk is bae on Nunu). There were cases not too long ago of Singed smite support, and Nunu smite support with counter jungle strats that was promised to be supported. The change to jungle and support items where you can only have one or the other completely makes those strategies unviable. Sure they stop poaching of support items by junglers(which personally I've never seen), but they're also dumpstering an interesting way to play the support role.

I'm all for getting rid of sightstone, but this isn't the way to do it. They either need to show us their plans for the revamped support items they are removing and have those come out at the same time(which brings the author's point out: how to do that without causing the slot issue all over again), or they need to find a different way to remove it without removing the actives.

DontTouchMyBall2 votes

I'm a supp main. I'm happy with the changes.

tfw players would rather pay taxes [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

I'm a supp main. I'm happy with the changes.

tfw players would rather pay taxes [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Yeah, let's enjoy these items with no passives or actives sucking up an item slot. It may as well be a dumpster on fire that you get to buy and carry around.

Pika Fox2 votes

Honestly, i have a few nit picks with a few of your points, but i largely agree that i dont really like this change as its removing a fun aspect of the items for warding, and as a support main, warding is the worst damn thing in the game and is frustratingly dull, annoying, and just overall not fun (thankfully its far less stressed on supports with trinkets and ward caps... actually makes support enjoyable)

This change is probably the right direction for support, giving us cheap vision that we can use because of course its our damn jobs and our team will always force it on us and the jungler until the game dies in 50 years, but its still removing the fun aspect of the actives, making the items feel same-y. I no longer want to upgrade my item because its just a stat stick and more wards, as opposed to upping the item to get my major active that allowed me to influence a fight via movespeed or toss up a shield to tower dive/protect my carry/bruiser etc.

I DO agree that the 2nd tier passives upon quest completion SHOULD stay. I feel that would at least be something that makes each choice thematic and fun to build towards. Wards are wards. No one likes wards, ward control is dull and boring. It might be the best thing we can get, but its not interesting or fun. Let us keep something on them that is fun.

Anags2 votes

There is nothing unique or interesting about the quests. It just makes the items stronger.

They are being used by solo laners and adcs so something had to change.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

There is nothing unique or interesting about the quests. It just makes the items stronger.

How is MS on proc, shield on relic proc and coins on takedown plus captain enchant not unique and interesting?

They are being used by solo laners and adcs so something had to change.

Solo laners aren't even abusing them. ADC's are abusing Relic specifically, and ONLY due to the new runes creating an abusable combination.

That isn't justification to just trash the whole system all together.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

I'm actually looking forward to those changes. Myb we should wait to actually test them?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually looking forward to those changes. Myb we should wait to actually test them?

The net end result is just that now you are buying a item 2301 type item with no other alternative, and don't get quest Buffs anymore, since they are all being replaced with the permission to use your Sightstone wards.

I don't think i need to PLAY this to know it is bad, because the reason it is bad has nothing to do with how weak or strong it makes the support role, but how fun and engaging it is.

Anags1 votes

Huh, what about the items is so fun and engaging? I don't see it.

FourVsFive1 votes

Where do you guys get this info from, i looking at patch 8.01 i see no changes like this.

sycara2 votes

You might wanna look into PBE

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