Riot, if i Switch the Second keystone in my second tree, i expect the SECOND one to be swapped, not

ChaddyFantome·Jan 27, 2018·139 votes·9,530 views

...the first.

Right now, if you click on the second slot in the second tree before switching the first, it swaps the first one anyway, forcing you to have to Swap out the second one again for what you had in the first slot.

I don't think i have to explain why this is counter intuitive and annoying, and can screw you over with what little time you have in champ select.

I would appreciate if Riot looked at this.

42 Comments

RiotSparkleJan 28, 201842 votes

Yep, we're aware of this. Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm (as in the first rune slotted gets changed out first).

We're looking at either bumping the visuals cues to show you what's going on (i.e which rune will swap) or switching up how it works in the future, I know it can be confusing when you're picking a rune from that unpicked row.

ShuyinTheXJan 28, 20182 votes

An idea if you choose to change it, allow the player to select the rune they want to swap out. Like say I have Hextech Flash and Approach Velocity, but decide I want to swap Velocity for Future's Market, I click on Velocity then click Future's Market. It would swap Velocity for Market.

Al The LegionJan 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIb0AbU7,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-28T03:16:17.074+0000)

Yep, we're aware of this. Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm (as in the first rune slotted gets changed out first).

We're looking at either bumping the visuals cues to show you what's going on (i.e which rune will swap) or switching up how it works in the future, I know it can be confusing when you're picking a rune from that unpicked row.

Put a thick red curved arrow coming out of the top rune and green one going into the bottom one. Every time you swap a rune the red one glows, Works as a reminder that you just lost the top rune.

davmackinhosJan 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIb0AbU7,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-28T03:16:17.074+0000)

Yep, we're aware of this. Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm (as in the first rune slotted gets changed out first).

We're looking at either bumping the visuals cues to show you what's going on (i.e which rune will swap) or switching up how it works in the future, I know it can be confusing when you're picking a rune from that unpicked row.

Hey so I actually made a post on this a while back when the new system hit live that went a bit more in depth and it gained a bit of traction, somewhere around 200 upvotes if I remember but anyway, Its definitely something that has been a major pain from the start. Is there an explicit reason its been so long with out change (like being considered minor) or did it just go unnoticed? That would seem odd considering the fact that so many ppl seemed to be aware of and hate the problem, and has even lead to wrong load outs due to the confusion. Its kinda weird to think its gone on so long to only now be addressed.

I dont want this to come off as a sleeper jab Im just curious, but I can come off kinda aggro sometimes :\

RiotSparkleJan 28, 201812 votes

No worries dude, don't think it's an aggro question. :) I believe I actually read your topic as well.

First, there have been a few other features 'in line' ahead of it, namely hiding preset pages (which has also had some popular request topics here on Boards) and fixing some major bugs. We only wrapped up those things recently.

Secondly, we've been doing some data gathering to determine which of the two directions I mentioned we should go with (is the problem big enough to redo the entire selection or would better animations solve the problem?). Redoing the selection paradigm is actually super risky (changes to 'logic' have the most potential to generate very bad bugs like 'you don't get a rune page' or similar) so it's not something we would undertake lightly and it's worth it to figure out which one to roll with before investing significant time into either one.

TL;DR It's not considered a minor problem, but it's been in line behind other 'major' work and we've also been gathering some data to understand which solution to implement

AuroramancerJan 28, 20182 votes

Sorry not sorry to just drop my own discussion post into your lap, but since you are here talking about rune pages and such: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lglLTEMt-qol-suggestions-for-using-rune-pages

Any thoughts to offer as to whether you guys are looking at these kinds of issues as well or naw?

RottedApplesJan 28, 20182 votes

It would be nice if the rune i clicked was the rune that got swapped out instead of the first in first out stuff.

AnataBakkaJan 28, 20183 votes

First, there have been a few other features 'in line' ahead of it, namely hiding preset pages (which has also had some popular request topics here on Boards) and fixing some major bugs. We only wrapped up those things recently.

i understand the reason the preset pages can be hidden but not deleted, but can we at least disable runes in practice tool for testing purposes? you could do that before, but now you can't and they can interfere with the testing, giving possible wrong results

TykennJan 28, 20181 votes

Hey, I just want to say thank you for replying and giving us more information about this topic that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

It's these little things that mean a lot. Take care!

davmackinhosJan 29, 20181 votes

That's interesting, I never thought about a logic conflict problem but that makes sense. Nice to know that its having attention directed towards it tho, ty for your posts. :3

RenascentJan 28, 20181 votes

Would clicking on active runes in order to unequip them work as a solution?

NaonoJan 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIb0AbU7,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-28T03:16:17.074+0000)

Yep, we're aware of this. Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm (as in the first rune slotted gets changed out first).

We're looking at either bumping the visuals cues to show you what's going on (i.e which rune will swap) or switching up how it works in the future, I know it can be confusing when you're picking a rune from that unpicked row.

Not sure if my idea to solve this issue is of value.

I had recognize this issue for a long time but never made a thread or anything about it but nice to see there are others.

Anyway, my idea of a solution is this. Upon writing I realize a flaw in my idea but sorta lead me to another. Which is,

What if you click on the rune you want swapped out before you click on the rune you want.

So it's sorta more like check boxes. It's rather old fashion but if the fancy desgin remains maybe it won't seem so old fashion.

In the first tree you choosing a rune from all the rows but 2nd tree is differennt. So overwriting occurs in the first tree but not in the 2nd tree.

SanKakUJan 28, 20181 votes

"Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm" I'm not sure that's true, because the visuals do not match this. Making a habit to 'just pick both' seems to solve the problem, but the interface is buggy no matter how you sweet talk about it.

MkShenGreatAgainJan 28, 20181 votes

Thanks for addressing this Sparkle, I've been meaning to make a post about this for a while now. Having the wrong Inspiration runes can make or break a match lol.

DeathBurstJan 29, 20181 votes

For what it's worth, I think the problem with the current FIFO paradigm is the following:

You begin choosing your Secondary Runes. You're not sure about everything, but you definitely know that you want this one, so you click it first. Then you hesitate between a couple others and you click a few times, but in your mind, the first one is done. And then suddenly your first one is unset, and you have 5 seconds left and you start panicking xD

(On the other hand, I realize that if you do LIFO, there is no way to change your first click once you've made your second, so it's no good either. I don't have any good solution, I'm just trying to understand the problem ^^')

tl;dr: FIFO doesn't work well because players tend to select first the choices they feel the most certain about.

ChaddyFantomeJan 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIb0AbU7,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-28T03:16:17.074+0000)

Yep, we're aware of this. Secondary runes operate on a 'first in, first out' paradigm (as in the first rune slotted gets changed out first).

We're looking at either bumping the visuals cues to show you what's going on (i.e which rune will swap) or switching up how it works in the future, I know it can be confusing when you're picking a rune from that unpicked row.

Thanks for looking at this topic. I really appreciate it! While I have you, can i also bring attention to the fact that currently, if you edit a page, it will sometimes decide not to switch to the page proper? It's perhaps even more annoying than the issue I mentioned in the OP. :x

Metal JannaJan 27, 201810 votes

Yeah I don't know why it does this but it's annoying. Just a little QoL fix plz Riot.

BeersteinJan 27, 20189 votes

Yes, this is the worst design implementation since Zoe.

SweedishGunnerJan 28, 20183 votes

It came before Zoe so it seems CT drew inspiration from the Runes design. :^)

Head ConnoisseurJan 27, 20184 votes

I also really love the bug I get pretty often that doesn't let me change my runes at all in champ select. I was forced to play a Kassadin game with grasp, and hexflash yesterday because the client kept bugging out whenever I tried to change my runes.

TitietgromJan 28, 20184 votes

You couldn't change your first runes picked if it would always change the second.

TheThundersRoarJan 28, 20181 votes

I think they want the bottom one to be changed, as opposed to the more recent one. Unless they are all very sleep-deprived and actually mean the more recent one.

MuzétJan 27, 20183 votes

I had one game and I was innocent, and got a rune I didn't even want at all cause I expected it to be swapped rather than the first one <.<

ShirvallahJan 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I had one game and I was innocent, and got a rune I didn't even want at all cause I expected it to be swapped rather than the first one <.<

This has happened to me on more than one occasion accidentally. :/

LùmenJan 28, 20183 votes

It's pretty aids, caused me to fuck up my secondary tree a handful of times

Sonic AdventureJan 28, 20182 votes

Ultra bump. This has been going on for way too long. I made a thread too long ago.

Mysticman89Jan 28, 20182 votes

So suppose your secondary tree looks like:

o o x o o o x o o

at first, where you set the first one first, and the second one second.

Currently, if you click something in the second row, you'll get

o o o o x o x o o

but you want

o o x o x o o o o

is that correct?

Why is that more intuitive? I'd think my more recent choice is the one I'm more confident in, so it makes sense to me to change the least recently changed thing first. Not to mention always changing the most recent thing would mean you'd have an awfully hard time changing the other one.

Nut on my ButtJan 28, 20183 votes

No, it makes more sense for it to change the rune that you ACTIVELY clicked on to open the list of runes to change it from.

Automated RivenJan 28, 20183 votes

It has nothing to do with that. I have, 0/0/x X/0/0 0/0/0

I clicked on x/0/0 and changed it to the 3rd row 0/0/x and instead of changing the rune I clicked on it will instead leave that one be and change the rune I did not click on to the third row. This resulting in you having simply changing the rune you want for the other rune you want.

Mysticman89Jan 28, 20183 votes

Oh, people want to click a rune to 'highlight' it essentially, and then click a second time to swap the highlighted rune then. That makes more sense.

I suppose that's a reasonable alternative, although it takes the same number of total clicks as the current system if you want to change just one rune, and potentially twice as many clicks if you want to change both. Perhaps more intuitive though, so clicking twice as much might be a worthwhile trade off?

Automated RivenJan 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh, people want to click a rune to 'highlight' it essentially, and then click a second time to swap the highlighted rune then. That makes more sense.

I suppose that's a reasonable alternative, although it takes the same number of total clicks as the current system if you want to change just one rune, and potentially twice as many clicks if you want to change both. Perhaps more intuitive though, so clicking twice as much might be a worthwhile trade off?

It only takes the same amount of clicks if your changing the first rune. Otherwise it's less clicks if changing the second. Because in order to change the second row you have to change both the first and the second rows. Instead of simply the second row.

Mysticman89Jan 28, 20181 votes

If you're only changing the first rune you set in the current system, it only takes a single click (just click on the rune you want).

If you need to highlight the first rune to change it, and then click what you want to change it to, that's two clicks (click the first rune, click the rune you want). (Twice as many clicks in highlight system.)

If you want to change only the second rune you set in the current system, it's two clicks (click the rune you want [which changes the first rune to what you wanted], and click the other rune you wanted [which got changed with the first click]).

If you have to highlight what you want to change, and then click what you want, and you only want to change the second rune, it's two clicks. (So a tie between current and highlight.)

If you want to change both runes in the current system, it's two clicks (just click each of the two new runes you want).

If you want to change both runes in a highlight system, it's 4 clicks (click one to highlight, click rune you want, click the other to highlight, click one you want). (Twice as many clicks in highlight system.)

EnselusJan 28, 20182 votes

...keystone?

Violet FieldsJan 29, 20182 votes

Don't also forget when this sometimes happens: I had my Azir page (Aery) selected but it selected my Aatrox one (Fleet Footwork) instead. I was editing my Aatrox page in my Masteries OUT of the lobby and when I got INTO lobby my Azir one was selected, but the one I was working on was the one it had on, IN A RANKED GAME.

ChaddyFantomeJan 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't also forget when this sometimes happens: I had my Azir page (Aery) selected but it selected my Aatrox one (Fleet Footwork) instead. I was editing my Aatrox page in my Masteries OUT of the lobby and when I got INTO lobby my Azir one was selected, but the one I was working on was the one it had on, IN A RANKED GAME.

yes. This happens so much and its frustrating. ended up playing DarkHarvest +Inspiration AP Shyvanna one game because of it.

RyusaetherJan 29, 20182 votes

Upvoting this so many times

xlSaiyanlxJan 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

...the first.

Right now, if you click on the second slot in the second tree before switching the first, it swaps the first one anyway, forcing you to have to Swap out the second one again for what you had in the first slot.

I don't think i have to explain why this is counter intuitive and annoying, and can screw you over with what little time you have in champ select.

I would appreciate if Riot looked at this.

I was just about to post this. Too many times where I get the wrong rune because it swaps the first one out