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I see no reason to ever play Nocturne when Vi and Rengar exist

HateDaddy··50 votes·5,187 views

And that's not a knock (or noc for the phreakish puns) on Rengar or Vi as champions. But the fact of the matter is, they do his job and do it significantly better than he does for a few reasons.

Let's start with Vi:

She has more durability More upfront damage and good sustained damage, not to mention utility in the form of armor shred Better ganking at basically all points of the game Better clear in the jungle Functions better as a bruiser/off-tank (keep in mind whenever nocturne has been played competitively, he's been built basically full tank + botrk) Arguably, she scales better than Nocturne

With Rengar, there's not a lot to say. Rengar is just a better version of nocturne when you build both to do damage, whereas Vi is better as a bruiser/off-tank and more reliable overall.

Nocturne needs changes and I'm not sure buffing numbers changes much, unless you just overtune the crap out of him, which is not the way to go. He needs his role to be differentiated somehow. Paranoia is his bread and butter as a champion and the spell has a lot of power in it, given that it denies vision ontop of instant dive. But the fact remains he can seldom use the power of his dive. Obviously his E has a delay on it due to the simple fact it would be kind of silly if he could ult from such a range and instantly stun somebody, but Vi does this from a pretty respectable range, too. Minus the semi global range obviously.

I'm not really sure what the answers are, but nocturne just kinda seems lackluster compared to those two. His spell shield is also a pretty weak defensive tool. And his base defensive stats are not good. And his passive is honestly kind of bleh.

I know sated devourer does help him some and is good on him but at it's core, it doesn't solve any of his problems. He just needs some power shifts I suspect, maybe a complete removal of his W and a new skill entirely or something. But either way, he definitely just feels pretty lackluster

89 Comments

Slamurai Jack23 votes

And yet, he wins more than both of them, and substantially more. There is 1 thing Nocturne is far better at than both Vi and Rengar. Because of the darkness effect on his ult, he is particularly good at taking out enemy carries that cannot reasonably protect themselves, even if their team has peel for them. 2 Tanks and a Janna don't mean dick when Nocturne zooms past all of them and kills the carry before the darkness even wears off. Nocturne isn't as good at 1 shotting people as Rengar and his lockdown isn't as good as Vi's, but that doesn't mean his unique strengths don't have value. Having a spell shield on an assassin is just one of those strengths.

Noam Braumsky3 votes

If the adc is alone (or at least far away enough that his allies couldn't react to the ult) They would've died anyway from a rengar ult though.

Enosetc3 votes

{quoted}

If the adc is alone (or at least far away enough that his allies couldn't react to the ult) They would've died anyway from a rengar ult though.

the thing about nocturne's ult is that you can't see or target anyone on your team while it persists

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HsfkWA4z,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-18T13:55:39.761+0000)

And yet, he wins more than both of them, and substantially more. There is 1 thing Nocturne is far better at than both Vi and Rengar. Because of the darkness effect on his ult, he is particularly good at taking out enemy carries that cannot reasonably protect themselves, even if their team has peel for them. 2 Tanks and a Janna don't mean dick when Nocturne zooms past all of them and kills the carry before the darkness even wears off. Nocturne isn't as good at 1 shotting people as Rengar and his lockdown isn't as good as Vi's, but that doesn't mean his unique strengths don't have value. Having a spell shield on an assassin is just one of those strengths.

You're ignoring the fact that nocturnes 51% winrate is accompanied by a 3% pickrate, while Rengars 47% winrate is accompanied with an 11% pickrate and vi is 50% with a 10% pickrate, which suggests she's significantly better actually. The higher the pickrate, typically the lower the winrate. So this statement does not hold any water.

Also, nocturne can't solo carries. And any team with half a brain will just stand on top of their carry when Nocturne ults in and just group and kill him. If he's full glass cannon, which is what's required for him to have any hope of solo killing a carry, he just melts. If he's bruiser/tank, he just doesn't do enough damage and still dies fairly quickly because of pitiful defensive stats.

He doesn't one shot them, he has CC that's ridiculouy easy to get out of via flash of innate mobility. Spell shields also mean dick all for a melee champion jumping into the middle of a team, it doesn't help a lot. And I've already touched base on how poor his defensive stats are whereas Rengar kills things quicker and gets access to armor/mr buffs and a heal and Vis passive and high base damages allow her to build heavy durability and still isolate a carry and potentially kill them.

Slamurai Jack5 votes

I hear that argument a lot, that higher pick rates mean lower win rates. And yet it seems to be consistently untrue. Vayne's pickrate is 3 times what it was a few months ago and her win rate hasn't budged. Ahri's win rate and pick rate are both very, very high. Yasuo's pick and win rates have been on the rise for several patches. Riven has had both a high win rate and been extremely popular for ages. I buy the argument that a champ's win rate goes down when they become FOTM due to a swarm of people picking up the champion for the first time. But I don't buy that popularity alone has anything to do with win rate. Vi and Rengar aren't FOTM, so I think it's fair to say their win rates a reasonable indicator of their strength in solo q. And right now, they're both worse than Nocturne, both when newbies play them and when mains play them.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

because vayne is overpowered? for someone who is supposed to have a very bad early game she sure wins a lot....that's not a coincidence.

Caeler1 votes

Vi and Rengar aren't FOTM, so I think it's fair to say their win rates a reasonable indicator of their strength in solo q.

But they are FotM. champion.gg/champion/Rengar champion.gg/champion/Vi

Rengar - 4th highest ban rate for Jungle out of 42 champions. 7th highest play rate. Vi - 12th highest ban rate for Jungle. 3rd highest play rate.

I buy the argument that a champ's win rate goes down when they become FOTM due to a swarm of people picking up the champion for the first time. But I don't buy that popularity alone has anything to do with win rate.

I agree.

And right now, they're both worse than Nocturne, both when newbies play them and when mains play them.

I disagree. The other two are having their stats muddled by being FotM. Their stats are probably actually better than his. Well, VI's stats look a little too low to be just from play rate but Rengar is probably better than Nocturne.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I wouldn't really call them FOTM when they've held their popularity for several months now. Hell, Vi's popularity has actually gone down in the last few patches, that seems like the opposite of FOTM. You can have a high pick rate and still not be FOTM and you can have an only average pick rate and be FOTM. For example, Twisted Fate and Shen are both FOTM even though their pick rates are only 10% because 10% is massively higher than what it was not too long ago. I wouldn't call Vayne FOTM because her pick rate has been this high for ages and will not go down unless Riot nerfs her. Certain champions will always have high pick rates if they're anywhere close to good. Riven, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Vayne, Thresh, etc. Credit that to compelling champion design.

Caeler1 votes

Hell, Vi's popularity has actually gone down in the last few patches, that seems like the opposite of FOTM.

Vi - Play Rate: 9.77% , 3rd highest play rate for Jungle at the moment, increased 3 places since this patch. Though it did decrease a bit between 5.11 and 5.13

Rengar's appears to be pretty stable but I've definitely been seeing a lot more Rengars than usual.

I wouldn't call Vayne FOTM because her pick rate has been this high for ages and will not go down unless Riot nerfs her.

I see Vayne every other game now. Before she was FOTM I would have been lucky to see her every 8 or so. That's definitely a result of FOTM. And I'm not talking about ranked statistics. I'm talking about normals here (champion.gg only measures ranked unfortunately). Lolking is telling me she's the top pick too, which I'm not surprised by. She's picked almost twice as much as the second most popular ADC, Jinx.

Certain champions will always have high pick rates if they're anywhere close to good. Riven, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Vayne, Thresh, etc. Credit that to compelling champion design.

Vayne is sitting at 34.93% right now, which is higher than all of those champions except Thresh. Lee Sin is at 15.99%, Riven is at 16.88%, and Yasuo is at 6.72%. She has the second highest play rate in the game right now.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Do you think Thresh is FOTM? Because he's held the highest play rate in the game for as long as I can remember. And yet, I would never call him FOTM. Why? Precisely because he's been extremely popular for ages. Same with Lee Sin and Riven. Vayne has held that 35% play rate for about 4-5 months now; it's clearly not just a fad that will go away on it's own. The only way Vayne's pick rate goes down is if Riot nerfs her. Hell, Tristana is a far better example of FOTM than Vayne is even if she's less popular; her pick rate went from 6% to 16% in the last 4 patches. Popular ≠ FOTM

Caeler1 votes

Also, nocturne can't solo carries. And any team with half a brain will just stand on top of their carry when Nocturne ults in and just group and kill him. If he's full glass cannon, which is what's required for him to have any hope of solo killing a carry, he just melts. If he's bruiser/tank, he just doesn't do enough damage and still dies fairly quickly because of pitiful defensive stats.

Nocturne can easily solo kill a carry with just 2 damage items. His spell shield guarantees he blocks at least one skill, his ult allows him to gap close and deal damage, his Q gives him stickiness and more damage, and his E keeps them stuck where he can hit them. It will take him considerably longer than other assassins, however. About 5 seconds at least with a bruiser build, which is plenty of time for teammates to intervene.

Spell shields also mean dick all for a melee champion jumping into the middle of a team, it doesn't help a lot.

Spell shields are incredibly effective methods of avoiding CC and damage. See: Banshee's Veil.

And I've already touched base on how poor his defensive stats are whereas Rengar kills things quicker and gets access to armor/mr buffs and a heal and Vis passive and high base damages allow her to build heavy durability and still isolate a carry and potentially kill them.

This is true. I would love me some Nocturne buffs.

COWmanLord16 votes

Its for the super spooky team comp.

Sion Nocturne RekSai Karthus Fiddlesticks

Lots of shouting and spooky noises fill your foes with fear.

AmazingGoat8 votes

He has different strengths and weaknesses. He's probably not as strong as Rengar from the jungle, but he can also play mid lane rather well, which neither of those two can.

KANYE OBAMA GOD3 votes

I wouldn't say Vi can't go mid, you should try it because level 2 and 3 early game cheese is OP lol

Troy2426214 votes

{quoted}

He has different strengths and weaknesses. He's probably not as strong as Rengar from the jungle, but he can also play mid lane rather well, which neither of those two can.

Rango can go top. So.

Transgressor6 votes

His a very situational and niche pick in dire need of buffs. His playstyle is one of THE most unique in this game, he takes some skill to play since he doesn't have what one could call "traditional ganking tools", at least not untill he gets level 6 and unlocks his ultimate. And that's a problem. You are not mastering a champion based on their kit and its involvement around every possible situation, you're adjusting your playstyle to a champion that's lacking. You learn to play by being crippled from the start, instead of working your way up, not to mention there is no clear emphasis on counterpicking with or against him. Sadly, his fucking awesome eternum skin and great thematic are suffering because of it :/ .

My honest opinion is that he does indeed need a kit rework, not just buffs. On top of my head, here are a couple of suggestions, with the notion of him being a jungler that comes from far away inside the jungle to assasinate a single target by ravaging him with abilities as well as basic attacks.

-Still builds AD. Now has a new passive. For the sake of doubt, let's name it "nocnoc, who's there". His basic attacks apply a debuf, that when consumed, give each of his abilities a special effect. Doesn't stack with itself, meaning you apply it, proc it with a spell, re-apply it, then proc it again. Could be instant, or with a very short cooldown if deemed overly excessive/oppressive when used on the same target(assassin or not, balance above all else). Kinda like Nautilus's passive but in a shorter cooldown so as to make sense with the rest of the kit. It can be applied on several enemies at a time.

-Remove his old passive. Turn it into his Q. Now he has a small AoE cleave spell ala Zed/Hecarim, that does physical damage. If it consumes "nocnoc, who's there" it does increased physical damage, to keep the identity of his "periodically enhanced basic attacks" since his Q is on a fairly low coodlown to be spammable and his main source of jungle clear.

-Remove his E, put it into his W as his secondary spell. Same effect as before, tether an enemy for magic damage, at the end fear them if the connection isn't broken. If it consumes "nocnoc, who's there" it absorbes the target's health in a similar manner as Fiddlesticks's W, healing Nocturne for the duration. It's now his new form of sustain.

-His new E now is a projectile that works and feels like his old Q but with possibly a tad narrower hitbox. It's now his only ganking tool untill he gets level 6. Nocturne releases black haze that passes through all enemies hit dealing a rather small amount of damage. Why? Because this is now his only ganking tool before level 6. When the haze hits an enemy champion it dissolves dealing damage and slowing them. The longer it travels, the more its damage falls off but the greater the slow gets. As an incentive for players to land long range skillshots instead of free poke damage, they are rewarded with a very strong slow. It stops at the first champion hit. If it procs "nocnoc, who's there" it stuns instead of slowing, for a duration that's up for discussion.

-His ultimate can stay the same. But it does last a little bit longer, to emphasize the fear of drowning in darkness and isolation. With perhaps lesser cooldown, or maybe it gets its cooldown partialy lowered if you kill an enemy shortly after using it. But I have this idea: turn it into the exact opposite of TF's ult. Now it is global, Nocturne can jump to any enemy champion he wishes and could perhaps deal no damage to allocate powerbudget to the rest of his kit, to counteract his now global presense. Both of my iterations now apply "nocnoc, who's there" to all enemy champions.

Very sorry for the wall of text :( it's all ogre now.

g07h4xf004 votes

That's because Nocturne ultimate got nerfed to shit so of course he's going to feel mediocre. Meanwhile TwistedFate and RekSai can have better global ults and better ganking power.

Rito doesn't know how to balance their game, 6 years into this bullshit.

ShadowParker4 votes

Twisted Fate's ult used to be global as well, you know. I'm guessing Twisted Fate's ult has much more range due to the fact that people can avoid his ultimate, where as Nocturne is guaranteed to land his.

And Rek'Sai needs tunnels, that in itself makes it not quite as strong.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Twisted Fate's ult used to be global as well, you know. I'm guessing Twisted Fate's ult has much more range due to the fact that people can avoid his ultimate, where as Nocturne is guaranteed to land his.

And Rek'Sai needs tunnels, that in itself makes it not quite as strong.

Once again, you cannot just compare ults without comparing entire kits. Nocturne ults onto a target, what happens? He has to have his E fear them, giving them opportunity to flash out entirely like it never happened and if they have mobility, good luck. Twisted Fate uses destiny and goes in with a gold card that grants global vision (so you're not safe in bushes) and stuns you from range. RekSai's ult is just global presence, it doesn't do anything in terms of combat but it gives her insane objective control power given she can go from one half of the map to the other, and good RekSai players will have tunnels secure throughout the map in their jungle alone.

Sinlaire1 votes

agreed on reksai. i made my brother take teleport with her a few games ago. i would drop a ward on dragon, he would teleport in for the kill or dragon team fight, then ult back up top to baby sit nasus.

his cross map utility is excellent when played right.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

agreed on reksai. i made my brother take teleport with her a few games ago. i would drop a ward on dragon, he would teleport in for the kill or dragon team fight, then ult back up top to baby sit nasus.

his cross map utility is excellent when played right.

RekSai is a girl

Silver Fluffenbu1 votes

talk about nerfs. the existence of trinkets hits nocturne harder than many other jungles.

Gaddafi2 votes

Nocturne is strong if played right and he is weak feeding machine if timing is not right.

Poorly Dressed2 votes

Make him travel through walls when on Q path. Fixed :D The true nightmare

Noam Braumsky1 votes

Isn't there a champ from Dota that does this?

I'm not knocking the idea, it's amazing to think of laning and watching your opponent react when the living nightmare slides out of a wall :3

Anidan3 votes

Spectre does it with her Q.

Would be cool, but unfortunately probably broken as hell in League.

Nahara1 votes

Moving through walls might not be a super smart idea, because what happens if the effect ends while you're inside a normally unaccessable area of the map? Are you shunted out in a random direction? Are you trapped and unable to escape unless you B?

Sulghunter1 votes

That's what the PBE is for. And we already have bard doing the same crap.

Nahara1 votes

Bard's Magical Journey is more like a really slow dash over a wall, rather than being able to freely move through one, as I believe is the suggested idea.

Demented Lemur2 votes

I gonna use lissandra as an example as her e when going through a wall and reactivated lissandra appears of whatever the e was closest when it was reactivated

Bisaknosp2 votes

with the devourer item i would say he is equally strong or maybe stronger

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

with the devourer item i would say he is equally strong or maybe stronger

he's really not

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

#ReworkNoct2015

And please for the love of god, remove the spell shield. Why would a fighter/immobile assassin have a spellshield ? Spell shields are stupid in general, remove it and give him something meaningful please.

Meatwick1 votes

You can't make knock knock jokes with Vi and Rengar.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

Knock Knock Who's there? Vi: POWERSLAM!

Dr Poro1 votes

I see no reason to play Vi when Devourer exists.

Btw, nocturne has a better winrate and performance than Vi. (Thanks to devourer that is. Once it's nerfed, noc will probably be slightly weaker again.)

Rengar will always be a strong pick as long as he can reliably 1 hit squishies and has a zero counter play ult to enable it.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HsfkWA4z,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-08-18T19:37:03.261+0000)

I see no reason to play Vi when Devourer exists.

Btw, nocturne has a better winrate and performance than Vi. (Thanks to devourer that is. Once it's nerfed, noc will probably be slightly weaker again.)

Rengar will always be a strong pick as long as he can reliably 1 hit squishies and has a zero counter play ult to enable it.

Nocturne has 1% higher in the winrate category while only being played with a pickrate of 3%. Vi sits at 50% with a pickrate of 10%, that actually suggests vi is significantly better. 3% pickrate is basically just nocturne mains winning 51% of their games, whereas 10% is more along the lines of your average joe just picking up Vi, playing her and winning. 1% difference in winrate hardly means much on its own but when you consider the 7% difference in pickrate, it's telling you how much more reliable and consistent Vi is compared to Nocturne.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

I actually think Devourer Vi would be fun :3

CZNOuI9LIw1 votes

It is. Her W just keeps procing so much. Relavent video

Meep Man1 votes

I think the reason Nocturne is picked is because... 2 second fear, global vision denial, completely blocking a spell, and... maybe 55 free attack damage?

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HsfkWA4z,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-08-18T20:39:30.075+0000)

I think the reason Nocturne is picked is because... 2 second fear, global vision denial, completely blocking a spell, and... maybe 55 free attack damage?

Well competitively, he only usually sees play to counter global comps with his vision denial or to assist them (shen + nocturne in yr butt). So in his niche, he's not bad. But overall in general, he's outclassed. The question becomes this: do you want him to stay in his niche and likely never get nerfs but never really get buffed either? Or would you rather have him changed up a little to give him more general power, take away from his niche some and just introduce him to the game as a general pick that isn't so outclassed by others? In truth, neither answer is wrong. I'd just much prefer to see him transformed more into a fighter that excels at being in the middle of a team, rather than a global vision denying assassin that needs assistance to exist properly.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

What are you on about? Noc is amazing. His ult is better than both of those and so is his clear/ganks

Transgressor2 votes

His clear is mediocre at best. Rengar's faster and has actual sustain. Vi's faster and doesn't screw with her health as much. Nocturne's clear is painfully bad untill you get items, forcing you to recall when you could gank right after getting camps. Gank? LOL gank with what? Both Rengar and VI have 100000000 times better ganking tools than Nocturne has, with the added effects that Rengar can 1-shot and fuckup single targets with no counterplay, and Vi stays effective and usefull no matter what you build on her thanks to her kit. Nocturne can't do jack shit.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

{quoted}

His clear is mediocre at best. Rengar's faster and has actual sustain. Vi's faster and doesn't screw with her health as much. Nocturne's clear is painfully bad untill you get items, forcing you to recall when you could gank right after getting camps. Gank? LOL gank with what? Both Rengar and VI have 100000000 times better ganking tools than Nocturne has, with the added effects that Rengar can 1-shot and fuckup single targets with no counterplay, and Vi stays effective and usefull no matter what you build on her thanks to her kit. Nocturne can't do jack shit.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Rengar can't run shot anyone until he itemizes or gets fed. Noc stays useful as well with his ult being better than vis (farther range and affects whole team)

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who obviously knows nothing. Especially being Silver 1 on Eune LOL

Transgressor1 votes

Thanks for the great laughs kid, hahahahahahahaha :'D

largefish1 votes

Nocturne is unique and fun to play as full dps because he has things that most assassins should never have in their kit, but is still balanced and doesn't feel to cheesy to play as. A spellshield, an insane global gapcloser, VISION DENIAL, and hard cc on a basic ability are all amazing things to have on an assassin/carry diver. People don't value his weirdness or the fact that he is the best duelists in the game.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Nocturne is unique and fun to play as full dps because he has things that most assassins should never have in their kit, but is still balanced and doesn't feel to cheesy to play as. A spellshield, an insane global gapcloser, VISION DENIAL, and hard cc on a basic ability are all amazing things to have on an assassin/carry diver. People don't value his weirdness or the fact that he is the best duelists in the game.

He's not even close to the best duelist in the game lol

Transgressor2 votes

Best duelist? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

His so called "vision denial" you purposely highlight, is a very situational effect taht comes with his ultimate, that is on a VERY long cooldown, being his only actually reliable ganking tool. The gapcloser isn't global. It also requires a target to work. The spellshield is average, since it only offers extra attack speed. Besides, why would you dive a target that requires you to shield yourself? If you're doing your job right, you'd be diving squishy backline carries, 95% of them have nothing to stop you from kicking their asses, thus the shield is pointless. Hard CC on a basic ability? Nice anecdote, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Leona would like to have a word with you.

You're calling Nocturne an assasin? Hahaha, nice one. Unless you're playing against handicapped bronze 5 players, there's no way assassin jungle Nocturne works, simply because he's lacking on so many levels you HAVE to build resistances in order to stay relevant all game. Since your only reliable ganking tool is your ultimate, good luck getting fucked once they bait your spellshield, good luck getting up to their face and try to "dps" them without any tools appart from a meager speedboost. Yeah, I wonder what a speedboost is going to do when you're trying to go past that volibear to get to jinx, without having your ulti up.

I Main Swain1 votes

his ult should fear at the very least the person he ults to

Masked Lunatic1 votes

Or do what pbe darius' ult does (fear in an area when he kills with ult - for noc it'll just fear an area when dash is completed).

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