50% Win rate Forcing sucks

GripaAviara·Oct 9, 2018·8 votes·1,957 views

3 games in a row completely one-sided, out balanced, every lane fed (myself included being heavily out matched)

Why? https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2053529106/23257352?tab=overview https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2053516337/23257352?tab=overview https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2053522111/23257352?tab=overview

Because I dared to go 3 games over 50% and get an S before

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2053496076/23257352?tab=overview

Riot is the best at offering the best experiences!

Just to showcase how dumb this is.

Let's say in an equal matchmaking, there's a 50% (beside you) chance for a player to be better than his direct op. This is the ideal case. This means for a game, to "lose every lane" it 0.5^4, that's a 6.25% chance. Ok. But to happen 3 times in a row? 0.5^12, **that's 0.025%. **

And it happens way more often

45 Comments

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20186 votes

have you ever looked at the leader-board for the top players in solo queue?

arguably the best solo queue player is TF BLADES he is #1 challenger with 1264 LP

know what his win rate is ? 57% http://na.op.gg/ranking/ladder/

that being said... you continue to have a win rate of greater then 50% til you reach an elo/mmr that your skill states you should be at. at this elo/mmr you will win/loss about 50% of games give or take 1-2% points. cuz if you you are still winning at 53%+ then you are still climbing cuz you havent reached your elo/mmr you should be placed at.

and as you win and climb you are placed with harder and harder games til you start to fall to find your mmr/elo

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20183 votes

Dude , forced win rate works by matchmaking vs a way better team.

In challenger it's impossible to do that since everybody there is top class

Please use brain

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20183 votes

yet i provided the #1 player in NA who has a 57% win rate

where he is facing the best of the best and still wins above 50%

use your brain

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20182 votes

Holy cow you are ...

He is best of the best, playing with best of the best, how the hell he is matchmade with higher skilled players than him? What the f is your logic?

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20184 votes

apparently you cant read. i never said he was matched with higher skilled . i said he is matched with the highest skilled players and still wins above 50%

proving that RIOT DONT FORCE A 50% WIN RATE

cuz if they did or was doing that dont you think he would have a lower win rate by having worst teammates on his team then his enemy to force him down to 50%?

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

DO YOU REALISE HOW THE WIN RATE IS FORCED? BY MATCHMAKING VS SUPERIOR PLAYERS ON ALL LANES That's the whole point of this discussion. Nobody ever said Riot enters the game and declares the other side victorious to foce the 50%

I'm getting tired of people thinking with their feet.

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20183 votes

not thinking with my feet.

and apparently you keep ignore the facts

if riot was going to force a 50% win rate for TF BLADES where he is #1 on the rank solo queue ladder he would be matched with worst players on his team where the enemy team is better then all of his teammates to make his win rate go down.

this clearly isnt happening or he is such a god at the game he can carry 4 silver players vs challengers and still maintain a 57% win rate

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

And people upvote this bull sh logic? No wonder the game is going downhill with this community.

How can you say being matched with worst CHALLENGER players is a big factor. It's like fking making a group with best football players in the world and saying: This Cristiano Ronaldo gets only shit players like Agüero in his teams that's why he loses

The difference between the best challenger and the worst challenger is neglectable.

Oh look that #1 Challenge player just got Faker in his team. Poor guy. GG (Faker is at the bottom of challenger ladder FYA)

ZephyrDrakeOct 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Dude , forced win rate works by matchmaking vs a way better team.

In challenger it's impossible to do that.

Please use brain

Please use your brain. If matchmaking was literally forcing you to have 50% winrate then it would affect even people in challenger. You see people smurfing back to their respective ranks with insanely high winrates. The only way the game "forces" a 50% winrate is due to pairing you with what the system believes is a match where everyone has a 50/50 shot at winning.

Literally every single game with a matchmaking worth anything will have the exact same result of people having around 50% winrate. Since eventually you will hit a wall that will force you to get better or constantly lose

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

How it would affect people in challenger? They are a bunch of super good players. Top of their region. Everyone of them is hardly outmatched since they are all at the skill ceiling. So how in the world these people get matchmade FORCIBLY WITH BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEM?

ZephyrDrakeOct 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How it would affect people in challenger? They are a bunch of super good players. Top of their region. Everyone of them is hardly outmatched since they are all at the skill ceiling. So how in the world these people get matchmade FORCIBLY WITH BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEM?

exactly, in other words they have as close to an actual 50% chance of winning in each and every single match. They can win or lose the exact same amount of games because the people that they play with are as close as possible to their skill. Every single matchmaking system will eventually leave you at around 50% winrate unless you are one of those who are at the extreme ends of the skill spectrum (either better than everyone or worst than everyone)

EedatOct 9, 20186 votes

50% winrate is something that naturally happens as you approach your true MMR. It's not forced. Its not a conspiracy that most Diamond players end up back in Diamond and that most Gold players end up in Gold. Riot is not an omnipotent being that knows the people its matching you with are going to have a bad game. I dont even understand the point of posting those games. Its not like you did well in any of them yourself. You have over 1100 rank games played this season. Its not some made up "ELO hell" thats holding you back

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20182 votes

Yeah, you're right, it happens naturally since Riot makes the algorithm.

That's why the moment I got an S over 50%, i get 3 horribly one-sided games . It's natural

EedatOct 9, 20185 votes

No, it happens as you reach players of equal skill level. Wow, you got an S then proceeded to play like shit for 3 games. Totally Riot out to get you and not your fault. Literally every single person on the enemy team was between S2 and G5. You're Gold 5. Yeah thats Riot really stacking the deck against you. How dare Riot match you against people in your own division? What kind of disgusting matchmaking is this? Get the tin foil hats out boys

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

Even if I played like shit for 3 games, which i did due to my autofiled sup, did I also lost EVERY LANE in those games (every lane was lost in 3 games, no lane won)? Which is the whole point of this

EedatOct 9, 20184 votes

You're right dude. Riot is an omnipotent being that can see the future and knew all your team mates were going to lose lane. Riot manipulates their divines powers to ensure you cant climb and fixes matches for 9 other players at a time just to keep you down

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

Lolex

TIL that writing an algorithm makes you omnipotent

EedatOct 10, 20182 votes

I'm guessing English isn't your first language so I guess I need to tell you I'm using blatant sarcasm

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

Damn you're smart

Did I do it right with the sarcasm?

EedatOct 10, 20181 votes

Damn you're smart

Thanks, appreciate it.

MathgodpiOct 10, 20182 votes

Elo is arbitrary until you get to around mid diamond. So is MMR. Riot has other ways of tracking how good a player is, independent of their rank or MMR. Riot can track individual stats and use those to determine how good a player is, regardless of how many games they've won or lost. I believe the matchmaking system takes the best players of any given division and puts them against each other. This would explain why there are good players out there who can't climb, it's because they are always getting matched against other statistically good players and teamed with statistically bad players.

DearPearOct 9, 20185 votes

THERE IS NO 50% FORCED WINRATE.

Damn, get that straight and simple fact.

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20185 votes

I just showed you 3 games in a row where the team was completely outmatched. And you say there isn't?

ParoeOct 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

THERE IS NO 50% FORCED WINRATE.

Damn, get that straight and simple fact.

Not a hard force, but the system attempts to keep you at a 50% win rate by, when youre above one, placing you against better and better teams until lose. When you lose the system swings in reverse.

Think of it like a pendulum. In the middle is 50%, at the far right is the maximum amount of games you can carry, and at the far left is the first game you lose before it starts swinging back to 50%.

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

It's obvious as hell, yet some people like to kiss riot's a

Nobody said forced 50% = auto lose after 50% yet people here use this as a main argument completely missing the point

EedatOct 9, 20185 votes

Its not attempting to keep you at 50%. It's legit something that occurs naturally as you reach your true MMR. You aren't forced there and you can continue to climb by improving

TheSingularityOct 10, 20181 votes

While anecdotal evidence is the worst quality possible, it displays the contrary. Last season, between 12 and 20 promotion series for S1 to G5. In just about every single one of them without fail, my team would consist of a few silvers incl me and we'd have 1 gold at the very least most of the time. The enemy team would generally consist of mid gold-plat5 and in 11 games (out of, at the bare minimum 36 games) the enemy team had someone in diamond.

Regardless of the situation, there should never be anyone above gold 3 on the opposing team. I don't care about their MMR, if their MMR sucks let them sink down to the actual rank instead of "well he has the win rate of a silver so we'll stick him in a silver game". The test should be silver 1, vs S1-G3. Those weren't promos to plat, they weren't promos to diamond hell I doubt I'd make it to high gold. So why on earth is the test silver+low gold need to beat gold-diamonds? What generally happens prior to a promo? Generally you're on a streak (potentially 60%+ winrate in the past 10-15 games) or at the very least over 50% (2 wins 1 loss 1 win 1 loss 2 wins 1 loss ect). Then, and again anecdotally, hit promos, and every enemy team member is better than every ally team member. I got through, due to free wins. It felt shit, the enemy team had someone inting and yipee, gold... practically for free... I'm not making the claim that the system works like this, but it is odd when a trend like this is so dam obvious. I'm simply pointing out said pattern.

What is interesting is that this season was drastically different. One series is all it took, won 3 lost 1 so was pretty clean. Why was this one so easy, when the last one was so hard? I hadn't played in a year (got sick of meta and took a break) so I should've been way worse than I was last year. Yet it was so clean and simple this time.

Idk what they've got going on, maybe sheet changed idk. But if the system does feel more artificial than the sc2 system (where you do literally climb until the enemies are too good)

DearPearOct 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not a hard force, but the system attempts to keep you at a 50% win rate by, when youre above one, placing you against better and better teams until lose. When you lose the system swings in reverse.

No. The system tries to give you mates and enemies that have the same skill level (MMR) as you. The closer you get to your real skill level (MMR) the more average you will be compared to everyone else in the game.

The "50%" thing is just a consequence of a correctly made matchmaking.

{quoted}

I just showed you 3 games in a row where the team was completely outmatched. And you say there isn't?

Dude, showing 3 games with an unrelated situation is not a proof. Wtf is wrong with you.

MathgodpiOct 9, 20184 votes

Exactly. I get so mentally/emotionally/psychologically exhausted trying to carry trolls who aren't even pretending to care; they do random crap like dive into the enemy team or walk into the enemy jungle with no vision, no map awareness, etc, over and over again, and throw relentlessly.

It is absolutely appalling to know that at least 40% of my games are unwinnable no matter what I do; it is a blatant waste of my time to play these games, and also to have to win more games to make up for the LP loss.

The system would be infinitely better and fairer if teammate selection was random, rather than the current "oh, you won a few games? Let's make sure you lose the next 5" thuggery that we are subjected to now.

If a game is unwinnable due to random bad luck, I can deal with that. What I can't deal with is a system that determines that I have to lose a certain amount of games and directly forces me to lose them.

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20184 votes

in your last game where you played as jinx vs vayne you are g5 vs a s2 vayne you did 11.7k damage 4/9/6 kda vayne who is two tiers below you 46k in damage 23/4/4kda

match ups top to bottom your team vs theirs top s3 vs g5 jng s2 vs s2 mid g5 vs g5 adc g5 vs s2 sup s2 vs g5

the lane vs lane was near even the biggest variance was top lane s3 vs g5 so 3 tiers maybe 75mmr difference

its not like you are being placed with bronze vs plats

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

I'm talking about my last game? Is it in there counted among those 3 games? I'm obviously tilted in this last game. I'm below 50%, I escaped the forcing.

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20183 votes

want me to go through those too?

well game before that your team vs theirs top s1 vs s2 jng g5 vs g5 mid s4 vs g5 adc g5 vs g4 sup s1 vs g5

i think the biggest issue in this game was the choice of TEEMO ADC VS CAIT but lets blame team and match making

top g5 vs s2 jng g4 vs g4 mid g5 vs s1 adc g5 vs s1 sup g4 vs g5

your team clearly has the mmr in their favor you go 1-11-1 cait top didnt help ill give you that 0-8-1

top unranked vs g5 jng g5 vs g5 mid g5 vs g5 adc g5 vs g5 sup g5 vs g5

seems your top was doing promos ( which sucks ) but your 1-8-6 adc didnt win the game either so i went over 4 of your games

1 you trolled picked teemo adc 2nd your team had mmr in their favor 3rd you still did bad but had a new to rank top laner

so plz tell me how riot is fuking you

GripaAviaraOct 9, 20181 votes

You realise what you did here is dog sh ? Every lane was completely outmatched. That's in the game. That's the only statistic that matters in the end. Their rank is useless as an argument, since for example the last 2 games bot where smurfs, they even admitted after game

The middle game had a 21/0 Oriana. Not my lane. 21/0, do you find it normal?

MrFawknSunshineOct 9, 20185 votes

how is it dog shit im going by what you used as evidence

im going by the player by player match up and rank

now you are saying that dont matter

are you just trying to twist everything to suit your argument ?

in the 2nd game your team had the higher ranked players for the majority how is that dog shit when you are using it for evidence that riot is forcing you into a 50% win rate

how are you defending the teemo adc pick saying the reason that game was lost was cuz of riot

the only one i give you is the unranked top lane in ur 3rd game.

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

I'm done reply-ing to you. Either you're a troll or let's say my cat is better at logic than a certain someone considering your challenger argument

every lane lost in 3 games, every lane was heavily outmatched. This is the only stat that matters: 3 games in a row where every one of the lanes lost heavily. This is the hard fact.
rank itself is useless due to the sheer number of smurf or outplaced people waiting to climb also nobody knows the exact algorithm so again. MMR is useless to bring in discussion since it's a made up number by stat websites because there NO WAY OF KNOWING YOUR REAL MMR or OTHER VARIABLES RIOT USES ATM

I never ever mentioned MMR as a factor yet you put words in my mouth

MrFawknSunshineOct 10, 20182 votes

how am i trolling ?

im using the games in your history

i used 4 games matched lane for lane

in 1 your team was heavily favored, 2 was even and 1 was bad due to the unranked mundo doing promos

and you lost all 4 and played like utter shit in all of them.

but u wanna cry foul and say its riots fault. i used the info you provided i didnt make any of it up. you are bitching about forced 50% win rate which well how do they place players in a game ? OH WAIT ITS DUE TO MMR ISNT IT!?!?

accept reality for what it is and stop looking for excuses

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

1 your team was heavily favored, 2 was even and 1 was bad due to the unranked mundo doing promos

Looks at the games: 38/18 46/9 32/19

Yes clearly even and heavily favored. But hey, pulling useless metrics from a stats website surelly is smart!

MrFawknSunshineOct 10, 20183 votes

and go look at ur kda in those games and blame riot

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

For facing way better players than me suddenly? Yeah. It's not fun going from facing equal players to getting wrecked all of a sudden because Riot wants you to get at 50%

MrFawknSunshineOct 10, 20182 votes

not one game out of the 4 i mention had higher ranked players then u

next lie ?

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

Did i fking stated higher ranked players?

How does rank at my ELO hold any value in this case when for example I just told I got vs smurfs in at least 2 games and for ex I know mid plat olayers in silver because they just played 20 games this season.

But you're just proving the arguments about my cat

SubdueOct 10, 20182 votes

How do you suppose Riot chose the 15 people who got the free wins or the 12 people who got the free losses because of you?

GripaAviaraOct 10, 20181 votes

First of all is not specifically because of me. Never stated that. Each on one of them has reasons: losing streak, high than skill rank/mmr, etc. I don't know, nobody except riot knows the actual matching variables

People think force 50% is: auto lose . It's not that. It's forcing ppl on winning streaks or after good games above 50% win rate to play in clearly underdog teams. Now, if you suddenly get way better you won't be affected, but ppl don't do thar overnight and is a frustrating experience

Never stated I should be higher in div and so on. It's just frustrating that from equivalent skill balanced games I get 3 games in which even if i won my lane would mean nothing since every other lane was lost. I need to crush my lane to do a difference amd that means jumping at least a div in skill alll of a sudden

SubdueOct 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

First of all is not specifically because of me. Never stated that. Each on one of them has reasons: losing streak, high than skill rank/mmr, etc. I don't know, nobody except riot knows the actual matching variables

People think force 50% is: auto lose . It's not that. It's forcing ppl on winning streaks or after good games above 50% win rate to play in clearly underdog teams. Now, if you suddenly get way better you won't be affected, but ppl don't do thar overnight and is a frustrating experience

Never stated I should be higher in div and so on. It's just frustrating that from equivalent skill balanced games I get 3 games in which even if i won my lane would mean nothing since every other lane was lost. I need to crush my lane to do a difference amd that means jumping at least a div in skill alll of a sudden

Were you in the Olympics? Those were some crazy mental gymnastics.

Sir PrepuziusOct 10, 20181 votes

Let's say in an equal matchmaking, there's a 50% (beside you) chance for a player to be better than his direct op. This is the ideal case. This means for a game, to "lose every lane" it 0.5^4, that's a 6.25% chance. Ok. But to happen 3 times in a row? 0.5^12, that's 0.025%. And it happens way more often

your conspiracy theory is so dumb i want to cry, your attempt to rationalize it using probability is even worse