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Improving Ashe's kit; Wall of Text; Old / New comparisons

Kowe The Ewok··15 votes·2,061 views

Edits 1.2:

  • Added the suggestion to increase the W cooldown slightly further.
  • Removed Crit from W
  • Reworded Hawkshot (Thanks to Sphinxz)

Important note: This is mostly not a rework, but giving her back power she used to have and adding improvements to allow her to compete with newly introduced champions. Please consider checking out Ashe's past: http://www.lol-patch.com/ashe.html

Why does Ashe need improvements?

  • Time hasn't been kind to Ashe. Her Ult, W and Q have received significant nerfs since the beta*. - New carries with significantly higher DPS have been introduced, carries who beat her easily even if she's far ahead in items.
  • Supports used to be sustain focussed, now they focus on CC - and got very strong one. This doesn't make Ashe's main strength redundant, but less impactful/special.
  • Caries with great CC and much higher damage exist (Varus ult), Cait/ Jinx with tripple-root. Vayne with knockback and stun. Graves with Smoke-Screen...
  • New masteries and tenacity have been introduced which makes her CC less powerfull than it sued to be.
  • Todays's champions all have powerful / low CD gapclosers and high mobility. Which means Ashe can't kite like she used to

*http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xEd2nAGB-help-with-ashe-vs-lucian?comment=0003

Summary: Her DPS is horribly low compared to todays carries and her utility is not only barely superior to that of other carries, but also has become easy to build (mastery) against. These days her job is done by supports, not carries.

Ashe's power: Ashe's main power is supposed to be controlling the battlefield and enemy movement.

The suggestion

Base stats Ashe's mana regeneration is reduced by 0.75.

Passive: Focus: Old: If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Focus stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will critically strike on her next basic attack. Thereafter, Focus stacks will reset to an amount equal to her critical strike chance.

New: Continious hits on the same champion improve Ashe's critical strike chance by 2.5/ 5/ 7.5/ 10% (level 0/6/12/18). This bonus stacks up to 3 times. This bonus resets upon switching targets.

Explanation: her former passive used to be completely useless in teamfight after the initial blow. The new passive makes her more consistent AND fits the name much better since this time you really "focus"on a target.

Frost Shot: Old: TOGGLE: Ashe enchants her basic attacks with ice, slowing her targets for 2 seconds. SLOW: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35%

New: Passive: Ashe's attack slow her target by 5 / 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 / 15% Active: For 8 seconds the passive bonus gets trippled. MANA COST: 30/40/50/60/70 COOLDOWN: 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 /16

Explanation: The passive makes her Q more consistent. It will not have a significant impact but might allow adding another hit or two from time to time. Given that most carries have gapclosers/flashes these days I consider this fair.

The active sets her slow up to 45%. This might sound much at first - but Ashe used to have PERMANENT 42% BEFORE the slow reduction mastery has been introduced. Giving her a strong times slow feels appropriate. NOTE: With the "new" def mastery tree consider it a 35% slow for just 1 point..

Volley Old ACTIVE: Ashe fires 7 arrows in a 57.5º cone, dealing physical damage to each target hit. Each arrow will only hit one enemy, and each enemy will only be hit by one arrow. Volley also applies the current rank of Frost Shot, regardless of whether it is toggled on or not. RANGE: 1200 MANA COST: 60 COOLDOWN: 16 / 13 / 10 / 7 / 4

PHYSICAL DAMAGE PER ARROW: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 (+ 100% AD)

New ACTIVE: Ashe fires 7 arrows in a 57.5º cone, dealing physical damage to each target hit. Each arrow will only hit one enemy, and each enemy will only be hit by one arrow. Volley also applies the current rank of Frost Shot, regardless of whether it is toggled . Volley ~~ can crit and~~ applies on hit effects. RANGE: 1300 MANA COST: 60 COOLDOWN: 13 / 11 / 9 / 7 / 5 EDIT: Maybe rather 14 / 12 / 10 / 8 /6 PHYSICAL DAMAGE PER ARROW: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 (+ 100% AD)

Explanation: Volley got back its old range (see patch history at the top). The ability to crit and apply on hit effects significantly improves her teamfighting potential. As a compensation her minimum cooldown has been increased. Her cooldown at earlier levels has been reduced to compete with insane lane bully carries which have been introduced. Note that volley now requires some thinking, it's a 2-edged sword: USING VOLLEY CAN BREAK HER NEW PASSIVE.

Hawkshot OLD PASSIVE: Ashe gains 3 bonus gold each time she kills a unit or destroys a structure. ACTIVE: Ashe animates a hawk to scout for her, granting sight for 2 seconds as it flies towards a target location. Hawkshot grants a 1000-radius area of sight for 5 seconds when it reaches its destination. The sight extends into brushes. RANGE: 2500 / 3250 / 4000 / 4750 / 5500 COOLDOWN: 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 / 40

New PASSIVE: Ashe gains 3 bonus gold each time she kills a unit or destroys a structure. ACTIVE: Ashe animates a hawk to scout for her, granting sight for 2 seconds as it flies towards a target location. Hawkshot grants a 1000-radius area of sight for 5 seconds when it reaches its destination. The sight extends into brushes. If Hawkshot crosses an invisible champion it will be spotted. Hawkshot won't fly further but stick with the spotted champion and make it visible for 2/3/4/5/6/ seconds. If Hawkshot crosses an any champion withing a raduis of (insert number) Ashe will have vision on it for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds . Hawkshot won't fly further. RANGE: 2500 / 3250 / 4000 / 4750 / 5500 COOLDOWN: 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 / 40

Explanation: Hawkshot is a somewhat useful 1-point ability. It doesn't offer counterplay or too much of a level up bonus. With the suggested change it can be used to fight champions like Twitch, Eve or Vayne and putting a point in it might be what decides the outcome of a fight. It comes with a downside: At the same time a smart team can abuse the new side effect to stop the bird from spotting an objective. Meaning: An Eve standing in the line of sight between Ashe and Baron can ruin a steal-attempt.

**Enchanted Crystal Arrow **

OLD: ACTIVE: Ashe fires a giant arrow in a straight line. If it hits an enemy champion, it will deal magic damage and stun that champion for 1-3.5 second(s), based on the distance the arrow traveled. Additionally, enemies within a 250-radius of the impact take half the damage and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds. MAGIC DAMAGE: 250 / 425 / 600 (+ 100% AP) SPLASH DAMAGE: 125 / 212.5 / 300 (+ 50% AP) RANGE: Global MANA COST: 100 COOLDOWN: 100 / 90 / 80

New: OLD: ACTIVE: Ashe fires a giant arrow in a straight line. If it hits an enemy champion, it will deal magic damage and stun that champion for 1-3.5 second(s), based on the distance the arrow traveled. Additionally, enemies within a 250-radius of the impact take half the damage and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds. If the target is less than 350 units away it will be knocked back by 350 units. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 250 / 425 / 600 (+ 100% AP) SPLASH DAMAGE: 125 / 212.5 / 300 (+ 50% AP) RANGE: Global MANA COST: 100 COOLDOWN: 100 / 90 / 80

Explanation: Splitting damage types is outdated since the Arpen/Mpen chances 2 years ago. Last Whsiper and Arpen runes have a much bigger impact than they used to have back when Ashe was introduced. Making her ultimate a completely magical ability sets her in a huge disadvantage compared to Jinx and Draven. The knockback again is a 2-edged sword, but it should mostly be helpful against assassins/offtanks which have tenacity and laugh at the 1s (or less..) stun of her ultimate at close range.

Last words I appreciate feedback. Especially the Wchanges might sound strong at first, but given that Ashe has a single non-ult damage ability it's more than fair in my eyes. Same for the changed "Focus". It sounds strong at first, but looking at Jynx' Q's passive I consider it a fair exchange. Especially since there's a good chance that W resets it.

All in all I dare say that these suggested changes improve her by a solid amount, but really require some caution and skill to be used to their maximum potential.

It might be too much, it might not be enough. I hope that we manage to gather enough positive feedback to see some improvements to our favorite Frost Archer.

Cheers, Kowe

23 Comments

Vulpes Inculta4 votes

I love the proposed new passive, and the change to her Q boosting it for a short amount of time sounds like a great thing, as well. The change to volley... That sounds way too strong and broken. Volley is already a really powerful ability as-is. As for Hawkshot, I like the idea of revealing stealthed champions, since its an ability that isn't too often used. It would give her kit a bit more utility. As for the knockback on her ult, that sounds too much like Tristana, though perhaps extending the duration of the stun slightly for close range would be a nice buff there instead.

Overall, I like it, save for the Volley and Trist-like ult displacement. Ashe holds a soft spot for me, and I would love to see her reworked into something similar to this.

That new passive especially... yes, yes, and more yes.

Psykiss1 votes

I think Ashe would be strong enough with only the passive rework.

The free slow is a little too strong since Ashe could just buy Zephyr or some other MS item and be just as effective with her kiting as she currently is, without needing to activate the ability. Maybe lower the slow and increase the multiplier.

hefgonburg3 votes

i like the rework idea but that free slow just seems too strong, but great work ;)

Remlap12232 votes

Gangplank says hi.

YouLostMe3 votes

He's also designated as bad design and Riot says if they rework him they'll remove the perma-slow.

Gangplank says bye.

Sire Hippington3 votes

to be honest, she would be broken with that changes. I Agree that she needs some love, and her current passive is just bad, but u went a bit to far here.

  • passive: ur passive is a nice idea, and it significantly incrases her dps(by up to 45% with IE). I think it would be enougth to simply let her stack up the current passive also infight, maybe with a lower rate than out of combat.

  • Q: I think 45% for 8 sec, and most off all on W, is a bit to strong. it either needs a lower duration, ore less poerfull slow. I personally would prefer the passive slow + an active skillshot that applys and 55/65/75/85/95%slow and some smaller damage decaying over 2 or 3 sec.

  • W: applying on hit+crit would be to strong. It already is a massive skill if used correctly, as it allows to permanently apply the slow on big aoe over a huge range. adding that much more dmg and even more range would escalate rather quickly. With a sttatick, which could regain 70charge due the on-hit, the poke would be massive while the slow still hinders retaliation... I don't think W really needs any buff if ashe get's some small buffs on the rest off her kit.

  • E: I don't think we need more stealth-counters, we rather need some rework of stealth/vision in generall. It would help if u gain vision on not-invisble enemys for 5sec along the pathe and within the impact area so it'S a bit more effective at scoutin in general.

  • R: even though magic damage is more fitting to that magical arrow, changing it to physical damage probably makes sens as the rest of her kit is purely physical aswell. I don'T think the knock-back is necessary or fitting though. I'd also like to see some cd-reduction if u miss it entierly to promote cross-map snipes, as missing it wouldn'T be as punishing anymore.

Overall, i don'T think ashe needs much buffs. Giving her finally a relevant passive and removing/reworking michaels crucible(the main problem for ashe, as it kinda removes her ult) would probably already be enough.

site note: I would like to see more fancy visuall effects on ashes slow and most of all the ult-stun. Compared to the other clan-leaders and their amazing cc-effeckts(like Sejus ult freezing enemie to statues), Ashe looks a bit boring and forgotten.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Q: I calculate with other numbers. Since the introduction of the new masteries ANY tanky champion who sees Ashe in champ select has not more to do than invest a single point to reduce it by 10%. It's basically bringing her back to the pre-mastery-change state. But ONLY for 8 seconds. Considering that she used to have permanent 42% this still is nothing. (The 15% passive basically means permanent 5%)

COnsidering that today each champion and his dog has low CD gapclosers this ability currently is a joke.

W: You forget that it has the downside of cancling her new steroid. Not to mention that the cooldown is INCREASED. Yes, it's definitely stronger ONCE you get items. She still has the worst earlygame infight potential and can easily be bullied ouf of lane if you pick the right counter.

Now look at Jinx with her AoE rocket launcher and attackspeed on Q. Or the damage Koggy and Tris can deal lategame.

But well, you have a point - so I also add an increased cooldown.

E: Maybe we already have some abilities that make invisible champions visible, this change is more or less aiming on enabling counterplay this global ward.

Ashe WILL stay significantly behind those, but that fine due to her utility.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Q: i'm afread u miss understand how the slow-reduce works. the 10% slow reduce means instead of 45% slow, u get 45 -0.1*45 = 40.5%slow. the 45% slow wouldn'T change much vs mobile assasins, but it would make her even more punishing vs imobile melees, and imobile melees have a even harder time than Ashe these days...

rather increase her base ms by 5-10, or the range by 25 to make her overall a lil bit saver.

W: with a 6sec cd on maxrank it might work, it wouldn't be to strong for dps, and she would loose the realy frustraiting 1200range perma aoe-slow Ashe is not supposed to deal as much dps as most other carrys, as she therefore provides way more utillity. The main problem really is item 3222 , as it counters her ult to much, makeing her best utillity skill nearly useless vs good supports.

E: the new counterplay would only come with counterpicks. IF u don'T have a stealth champion, u can't block it, and u would need vision on ashe to get positioned in time, so it would more be a randomly ocuuring thing than real counterplay. If u want counterplay, let i lock on the first enemy it hits, providing vision in a 1000aoe around the target for 5 sec. This would allow anyone to block it while still buffing it in some situations.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Imo, she only needs two things:

  • Rebalance her base stats a tiny bid. Especially, bump base AD to 46 + 3/lvl.
  • Slowing an enemy (or hitting a slowed enemy) gives X stacks of focus, doubled/tripled against champions.

Basically, with the correct numeral balancing, this should make Focus useful even in combat.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

only red till

Volley can crit and applies on hit effects.

You obviously have no idea how goddamn strong that ability already is...

Ashe´s kit is still fine and she´s very strong in the right hands. No need to make broken what ain´t need fixing. Her passive could use a little love, but appart from that she excels at what she does like non other. She´s niche, but that´s how it´s supposed to be...if you don´t commit your teamcomp for your Niche-pick it´s pretty clear you´re better off with some allrounder like tris (and even for tris you need some champs hat can carry the midgame or make her snowball on lane already. This game is not about individual Champions, it´s about 5 Champions vs 5 Champions.

Sukishoo3 votes

I like a lot of the ideas, especially the W, E and R.

Overall I think Ashe could use massive work where her Passive and Q are concerned. I for one have felt that her passive doesn't suit her kit at all.. like why does she have an icy based kit but then you see this Critical Damage passive? There's a lot we could do with this.

Passive:

Focus: Drop the crit passive and change it to a bit of a mix of her current q and then something along the lines of what you have going on there with the "switching focus between targets" but of course, a little less powerful.

New: Continuous hits on the same champion improve Ashe's Frost, slowing targets by 5/ 7.5/ 10% This resets upon switching targets.

Then her Q, since I proposed moving the frost shot to the passive, she could then get a bit more open here and allow her to have an actual ability in it's place. Since most of the newer adcs have escape mechanics and Ashe has nothing outside of a well placed Ult shot. Sure, she's built for kiting a lot but that doesn't always help her.

So for the Q I say the following;

Change from "frost shot" into something like "Frost Grab" where Ashe fires an icy projectile that roots the target in place for 1 second or so. Similar to like what lux/morgana's q's do. This would then give her a bit of an escape, like what jinx and cait have.

Egyptian2 votes

i will go ahead and pretty much agree with what everyone else said

her passive that's probably my favourite thing about your rework her current passive whilst maybe level 1 in lane can be effective throughout most of the laning phase carries no potential and even in team fight if you were maybe clearing waves waiting for your team to get the right engage you don't get the intial damage

with the new passive after three AA with an item 3031 + item 3087 she gets 75% and with an item 3031 + item 3046 she gets 85% excluding any runes masteries etc... which isn't ridiculously strong yet somewhat of an interesting mechanic one thing though I think a better way to word it would be
something along the lines "when ashe continuously hits a target she applies a stack with each attack stack increases her critical strike chance by 2.5/ 5/ 7.5/ 10% (level 0/6/12/18) stacks reset when ashe doesn't attack her target for 2 seconds or upon changing targets"

Frost Shot nice change complements her new passive and gives ashe great kite chase potential on top of what she already has although i think maybe lower the passive numbers down a bit 15% is a bit too much

Volley mate you're breaking the game now that ability already deals a fair amount of damage giving the ability to crit all 5 enemies and lifesteal off them would be too much for and would be ridiculously overpowered in team fights and also wouldn't complement the single target focus her passive and Q have i don't see it as much of a decision maker as it would go something along START OF FIGHT > volley > AA>AA>AA>volley >target dead i don't see it adding interesting gameplay to Ashe's mechanics

Hawkshot yeah just the wording PASSIVE: Ashe gains 3 bonus gold each time she kills a unit or destroys a structure. (like always) ACTIVE: Ashe animates a hawk to scout for her, granting sight for 2 seconds as it flies towards a target location. Hawkshot grants a 1000-radius area of sight for 5 seconds when it reaches its destination. The sight extends into brushes.(so far so good) as for the second part in my personal opinion it would be better if instead of If Hawkshot crosses an invisible champion it will be spotted. Hawkshot won't fly further but stick with the spotted champion and make it visible for 2/3/4/5/6/ seconds.

if Hawkshot crosses an any champion withing a raduis of (insert number) Ashe will have vision on it for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds . Hawkshot won't fly further. RANGE: 2500 / 3250 / 4000 / 4750 / 5500 COOLDOWN: 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 / 40

or V.2 PASSIVE: Ashe gains 3 bonus gold each time she kills a unit or destroys a structure. (like always) ACTIVE: Ashe animates a hawk to scout for her, granting sight for 2 seconds as it flies towards a target location. Hawkshot grants a 1000-radius area of sight for 5 seconds when it reaches its destination. The sight extends into brushes revealing stealthed units and traps

i like her ult as it is tbh i think the new one as someone else mentioned is too similar to trist's ult + the fact that this could offer some inconsistencies when i'm playing ashe and someone dives me under tower i don't want to knock them back i want to stun them and unleash hell maybe increases the duration of the stun ever so slightly

i'd be interested to know your opinion on this

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Taken into consideration. Changed my startpost.

YouLostMe2 votes

Hawkshot and ECM are cases of inefficient optimization so I don't particularly like those changes. Using volley to apply on-hit effects in a large, long-range AoE is way too much. Manaless permaslow is not OK.

I like the passive idea, though. I'd prefer scaling damage physical damage because I think small crit chances cause problems, but the concept is very thematic and no other champions have picked it up.

Mandaari2 votes

Of the many kit suggestions for Ashe I've seen over the years this is probably one of the best and simplest. It addresses pretty much all of her problems with minimal change to how she plays. I've suggested that exact passive many times myself, so I'm definitely on board with that.

The one thing I'm a little concerned about is Volley and it resetting her passive. There's a point where a meaningful gameplay choice turns into an ultimatum. Considering volley is the only non-ultimate damaging ability in Ashe's kit, I don't think it's fair to make her choose between that and her passive.

C13Magnum2 votes

I think the biggest thing would be to emphasize Ashe's strength. Her and Sivir are the best ADC's for high mobility pick comps. This is how we've seen her used most recently in competitive play (zyra-ashe works well for disengage, but it was her ults on targets caught out that won games). If I were to do a rework I wouldn't be concerned about her damage in teamfights, as that is not her niche, but rather in how she could help allies engage on targets who are out of position.

Vellich0r1 votes

Lol, the new passive you mentioned is more or less a copy paste of a smite champions passive.

Remlap12232 votes

Ah, much like how Zeus is Kennen of Smite? Get over yourself.

Vellich0r2 votes

Good lord, I was just mentioning it jerk, I've played smite like twice and found the correlation to be amusing, you dont have to be a complete ass about it.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

I never played Smite and don't intend to. There are dozens of MOBAs but limited options of giving a champion a steroid. This passive is new to LoL as required thoughtful play to not reset it when using her other abilities.

I don't care if there is something relatively similiar in another game as long as it fits her concept perfectly.

Vellich0r1 votes

and I agree that it does, I personally like the idea, but I found the correlation amusing so I made mention of it. You don't have to get all defensive about it.

SilverDrake1 votes

This would make ashe to broken. the passive change is fine but leave the rest of her kit alone.

Hayaishi1 votes

Ashe is fine, she fills up her niche perfectly and that's all she is meant to do.

Giving her more stuff it's just removing weaknesses from her already strong kit.

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