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I contend that tabis are constantly purchased for various reasons yet...

HateDaddy··2 votes·1,248 views

They'll be built even in games where the only source of AD is the ADC. Sure it's easy to say Tabis are too good and they're too good because ADCs, more specifically, anything AD, is very strong and tabis are a cheap, cost-efficient source at greatly reducing that. You know what my problem with that is? What does that say about merc treads in a day and age where CC is in every single champions kit galore?

I don't think mercs are exclusively bad, but clearly they aren't too highly regarded because people still build tabi over mercs even though mercs would seemingly be the correct choice. It's not because mercs suck, it's because CC stacking in this game is fucking ridiculous and mercs feel shitty for reducing crowd control, even when that's what they're intended for. You can't buff them because then they'd be too good. Cc overlapping is a problem and it needs to be changed somehow because there was once a time everything and its mom didn't have CC and kiting/perma rooting something required dedicated comps. Now it's just your average game.

Tl;dr Hard CC effects need to have some sort of reduced stacking mechanism that actually doesn't feel like shit, aka mercs feel like shit. Honestly, I find myself buying mercs more for the MR at this point...

26 Comments

Irelia Bot4 votes

If tenacity effected knockups and knockbacks it would be far more reliable.

Ralanr1 votes

If tenacity effected those then a lot of champions would be royally fucked over.

I'm not talking about heavy CC champions only. I'm also including champions that have really short knock ups in their kits that are just kind of there like Trundle and Yorick structures.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

IIRC, displacement off of player-created terrain is treated differently than a normal knock-up and wouldn't really be affected.

Even if tenacity shortened the duration of knock-ups, that wouldn't mean that players would move off of the terrain any more quickly.

Ralanr1 votes

Eh, I'm still against the idea as it makes Sion's knock up much less rewarding considering the risk in setting it up.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

This is the real problem. I get in a game and see one stun and three knockups on the enemy team. Tenacity? Mostly useless.

FireDrizzle3 votes

Merc treads dont work on knockups.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Merc treads dont work on knockups.

yep

Kilanost2 votes

Yea the game desperately needs more tenacity.

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

Yea the game desperately needs more tenacity.

More like desperately needs a true damage suppression item.

Anidan2 votes

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of True Damage?

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of True Damage?

Too many champs use it freely, Vayne, Cho, Darius, Jayce, Garen, Ahri, Master Yi, plus several others who do percentage.

Excluding Twitch since his true damage is 24 per second at max,

Anidan3 votes

So essentially, it's a problem for everyone else because it's an actual part of thei--Jayce? I'm, uh, looking at his wiki page just to make sure I'm not going crazy, and he doesn't exactly come pre-packaged with True Damage.

Anyway, I could see true damage being toned down a bit on certain champs, but implementing an item specifically to counter true damage seems... counter-intuitive. It's a damage type that is explicitly meant to not be countered directly, unlike Physical and Magical damage. It also seems really niche, honestly. If I'm against a team with, say, 3 AD champions and an AP champ for actual damage output but Vayne is one of the ADs then that simply isn't enough to justify buying the anti-True Damage item over just HP and Armor to live her non-true damage hits (which comprise of the 3 hits leading into that true damage) and the other AD champions.

Who would you even gear it for? Tanks? That seems weird because if someone has flat True Damage then building HP, which tanks do, is the soft counter to that. If it's % true damage then it's not exactly meant to be countered by items, but rather by counterplay since it tends to be conditional. Juggernauts? I imagine they'd prefer items that help them with other issues a bit more before worrying about something that granular, though I won't pretend I speak for Juggernauts. Divers like Vi or Lee? They tend to be more focused on general survivability and a bit of damage more than something that niche. Squishies wouldn't care unless it was a large enough reduction that it could be abused by absolutely anyone tougher more because, well, they're squishy--Vayne doesn't need True Damage to kill a squishy, for example, while Cho does need it to reliably kill them, so you're not hurting Vayne with that item for squishies.

That kind of item seems counter-intuitive and needlessly niche.

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

So essentially, it's a problem for everyone else because it's an actual part of thei--Jayce? I'm, uh, looking at his wiki page just to make sure I'm not going crazy, and he doesn't exactly come pre-packaged with True Damage.

Anyway, I could see true damage being toned down a bit on certain champs, but implementing an item specifically to counter true damage seems... counter-intuitive. It's a damage type that is explicitly meant to not be countered directly, unlike Physical and Magical damage. It also seems really niche, honestly. If I'm against a team with, say, 3 AD champions and an AP champ for actual damage output but Vayne is one of the ADs then that simply isn't enough to justify buying the anti-True Damage item over just HP and Armor to live her non-true damage hits (which comprise of the 3 hits leading into that true damage) and the other AD champions.

Who would you even gear it for? Tanks? That seems weird because if someone has flat True Damage then building HP, which tanks do, is the soft counter to that. If it's % true damage then it's not exactly meant to be countered by items, but rather by counterplay since it tends to be conditional. Juggernauts? I imagine they'd prefer items that help them with other issues a bit more before worrying about something that granular, though I won't pretend I speak for Juggernauts. Divers like Vi or Lee? They tend to be more focused on general survivability and a bit of damage more than something that niche. Squishies wouldn't care unless it was a large enough reduction that it could be abused by absolutely anyone tougher more because, well, they're squishy--Vayne doesn't need True Damage to kill a squishy, for example, while Cho does need it to reliably kill them, so you're not hurting Vayne with that item for squishies.

That kind of item seems counter-intuitive and needlessly niche.

You sure Jayce doesn't? Every time he changes to the hammer his first attack deals true damage whenever I'm hit.

Also I forgot to include Olaf in that list,

Vayne is probably in need of true damage being toned down the most since it goes off EVERY 3 autos, not complaining about Gnar because his is magic damage with every 3 hits.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Every time he changes to the hammer his first attack deals true damage whenever I'm hit.

That deals magic damage, not true damage.

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

That deals magic damage, not true damage.

You sure? Cause a white number appears when he hits me with it.

Frightning1 votes

Jayce Does not have built in true damage, Fiora however, does. (FTFY)

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

Jayce Does not have built in true damage, Fiora however, does. (FTFY)

Then why does it say in death recap that he dealt true damage?

Frightning1 votes

Red buff, summoner 14, or item 3147 maybe? Also, death recap is full of bugs and inaccurate information (sadly, idk why riot hasn't fixed that up nice and good, it's been bad for the entire history of the game, I honestly can't fathom why it would be hard to fix it either, and it's not like they haven't put some work into making it better). If you really wanna know what a champion does, check LoL wiki, e.g. Jayce, clearly says Hammer stance attack does magic damage.

Ralanr1 votes

Rework Irelia's passive and then we might get more.

LyingOnLine2 votes

Let's be real here, Mercs suck. The reason nobody builds them is that their MR is negligible and their tenacity has been negated by: A: The proliferation of CDR. Time was you really had to struggle and plan your build out if you wanted 40%. Nowadays, even ADCs can get to 30% off of two items if they really want to. B: Reduction in the length and power of hard CC. Remember how every once in a while somebody whines about how all the hard CC is being made skillshots, or somebody else whines about how Morg's root lasts too long? Morg used to be the norm. C: Displacement Creep. 'Nuff said. D: Damage creep. The final factor.

All this combined means that where in Season 2 a lockdown combo meant that without Tenacity you'd be locked down for 5 or more seconds while he enemy DPSed you down, if you had Tenacity, you might be able to get out and flash to freed, and hey, they'd blown their CC!

Nowadays though, you get knocked up and bursted down, or stunned and bursted down, or just plain old rooted, then slowed, then chased down. And it keeps happening.

I mean, it's entirely within Riot's power to make Merc's decent again. They'd just have to decide they actually cared.

Glîtchy1 votes

What merc doesn't solve:

Suppress, Knock up, and grounded

RexSaur1 votes

Tabi is also overpowered, so even if they have a single AD its worth it.

Its more than 100% cost effective without the passive, and thats just fucked up.

Tabi should not be a good item against ad casters or assassins but it is because of that, its good against AD anything, the thing about mercs is that it is not worth it just for the MR alone like Tabi is for the armor, and thats the problem.

So it isnt mercs being weak, its tabi being overpowered.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Tabi is also overpowered, so even if they have a single AD its worth it.

Its more than 100% cost effective without the passive, and thats just fucked up.

Tabi should not be a good item against ad casters or assassins but it is because of that, its good against AD anything, the thing about mercs is that it is not worth it just for the MR alone like Tabi is for the armor, and thats the problem.

So it isnt mercs being weak, its tabi being overpowered.

I said tabis are a problem. the only point I'm making is there's no incentive to build anything else over them, even when those items should clearly be superior. It's not just tabi being busted on their own, there's other factors.

Bard R Friday3 votes

{quoted}

Tabi is also overpowered, so even if they have a single AD its worth it.

Its more than 100% cost effective without the passive, and thats just fucked up.

Tabi should not be a good item against ad casters or assassins but it is because of that, its good against AD anything, the thing about mercs is that it is not worth it just for the MR alone like Tabi is for the armor, and thats the problem.

So it isnt mercs being weak, its tabi being overpowered.

Berserker's Greaves are 128.64% gold efficient.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

tabi are the only good boots, their power is just how much boots should give

but except CDR boots and sorcery boots, berseker and mercury are trash plain and simple, same for item 3009

Big Lincoln1 votes

It's because Riot decided that lower duration lower CD crowd control was somehow healthier, which is a huge nerf to tenacity because the reduction is less significant and lower CDs makes it less useful to have when you're going to eat another slow or stun by the time it's over

It's dumb

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