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Lifesteal vs spellvamp

The Bearded Bard··3 votes·1,129 views

Lifesteal is one of the most common stats in the game. Can you remember a game where you didn't see at least one person building it? Spellvamp, lifesteal's magic damage counterpart, is one of the least common stats in the game.

Lifesteal has many buildpaths that stem from one 800 gold item, and has a starter item for 440 gold. Spellvamp has two complete items, one of which is a hybrid item that provides lifesteal as well, that stem from one 1200 gold item. I'm not counting Guinsoo's Rageblade as it's not consistent, nor will I count the red elixir because it only counts for physical damage dealt.

Lifesteal is based on your autoattack damage, which is free and can happen up to two and a half times per second (though more often one to two times per second), and is affected by crit chance and other autoattack modifiers. Spellvamp is based on spell damage, which more often than not, costs mana and is gated by champion specific cooldowns. It is also 33% effective when AOE spells are used.

Do you see the problem here? Either spellvamp needs to be buffed up to lifesteal's level, or lifesteal needs to be brought down to spellvamp's level. I prefer the former, but I've got ideas for both.

  1. Take away the AOE vamp reduction for AOE spells that only hit one target. For example, if I'm playing Ahri and I only hit one unit with my Q, I receive 100% of the spellvamp bonus instead of the 33% I would get now, but if I were to hit two or more units with the Q, I would receive the normal 33% of my spellvamp.

  2. Buff the reduction to 50% against enemy champions while keeping it at 33% for everything else.

  3. Reduce lifesteal's effectiveness when hitting nonchampion units. Minions, monsters, and pets.

  4. More build options for spellvamp! This should've been done long ago, but they can't because certain few champions would abuse the Hell out of it, but I say go for it and nerf those champions accordingly. It's not like AD champions don't abuse lifesteal by building multiple lifesteal items.

That's all I've got really. Let me know what you think, comment some more ideas if you've got 'em.

Peace.

14 Comments

The5lacker1 votes

Mages play differently than Marksmen and Fighters. Ergo they do not get access to the same things Marksmen and Fighters get access to, because they tend to not use it as well. If a burst mage needs healing after their rotation, they won't be able to get it through spellvamp because their abilities are on cooldown. Autoattacks don't have cooldowns, ergo they're far more useful for in-combat healing as it's a constant stream.

Suggestion 1 is stupid and doesn't actually solve any issues with spellvamp. Taking it away fully would be the single most broken thing ever, as abilities can hit 6 minions at a time, which is why the AoE damage reduction was put in in the first place.

Suggestion 2 is what needs to be done for everything.

Suggestion 3 continues to not solve anything, as again, most mages don't benefit from spellvamp for reasons I've already described.

Suggestion 4 is lazy and continues to not solve anything.

Suggestion 5 is you being spiteful. Balancing the game around the whims of spiteful children is legitimately insane.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

Suggestion 1 is stupid and doesn't actually solve any issues with spellvamp. Taking it away fully would be the single most broken thing ever, as abilities can hit 6 minions at a time, which is why the AoE damage reduction was put in in the first place.

So what you're saying is, the problem with spellvamp getting full usage with AOE is minions, so wouldn't it be smarter to make it so it's less effective vs minions as opposed to hitting multiple things? Also, you neglected to mention the rest of the suggestion, which was to only take it away when it hits one unit (therefore not allowing mages to heal up just from minion waves).

Your counterpoints are honestly just slanderous, which makes it hard to take them seriously especially considering it doesn't seem that you read the whole post.

"Most mages don't benefit from spellvamp" is just silly. Ahri AkaliKarthus Katarina Annie Anivia Brand Cassiopeia Diana Fiddlesticks Galio Heimerdinger MordekaiserKennen Malzahar Lissandra Orianna Morgana Rumble Ryze Swain Syndra Xerath Vladimir Viktor Velkoz and Zyra would all benefit greatly from spellvamp if it was a better stat, a few of them even do benefit from it now despite its miserable state.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

The key word being if. IF spellvamp were better then ya everyone would want it.

If a BF swoard gave 500,000 AD every mage would buy it too.

Let me ask you this, because your entire premise seems to revolve around it. Why do you think spell vamp and life steal need to be equal or similar in value?

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

The key word being if. IF spellvamp were better then ya everyone would want it.

If a BF swoard gave 500,000 AD every mage would buy it too.

Let me ask you this, because your entire premise seems to revolve around it. Why do you think spell vamp and life steal need to be equal or similar in value?

Why shouldn't they be? Why should lifesteal be a necessity for every game while spellvamp is barely used? Why should there be only two complete items for spellvamp while lifesteal has six, one of which is also one of the spellvamp items? It's called balance.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HgJUJmsv,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-14T22:40:46.286+0000)

Why shouldn't they be? Why should lifesteal be a necessity for every game while spellvamp is barely used? Why should there be only two complete items for spellvamp while lifesteal has six, one of which is also one of the spellvamp items? It's called balance.

because they are for champions with vastly different abilities are purposes. Not every champion is meant to have the same level of durability .

AP has zonyas, does AD need one? Death Cap gives 30% bonus AP but theres nothing that gives 30% bonus AD. ect ect.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

because they are for champions with vastly different abilities are purposes. Not every champion is meant to have the same level of durability .

AP has zonyas, does AD need one? Death Cap gives 30% bonus AP but theres nothing that gives 30% bonus AD. ect ect.

Zhonyas compares to Mercurial Scimitar, death cap compares to crit chance. There's balance even if you refuse to see it.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I don't think spellvamp being applied fully when only one target is hit would be gamebreaking. Or if not fully then double the current value.

LilxPaprika1 votes

spell vamp isn't too shabby imo. what it needs is more item synergy. I find that it works well with luden's echo. I would really like it if it worked with lichbane.

See this suggestion:

Triforce's 30 ad and ap and 8 movement speed is comparable to lichbane's 80 ap and 5% move speed (in fact with just those bare stats triforce holds a bit more gold worth). For 700 more gold triforce has HP, crit and attackspeed to boot, not to mention phage passive. And its sheen proc does considerably more damage off the bat compared to lichbane as a standalone item. Not to mention it can lifesteal off the spellblade proc, lichbane can't.

I don't see any reason why lich couldn't be rearranged such that it could have two equations; one for ap champions who likely wont exceed 300 ap, the other for ap carries with upwards of 400 ap.

If equation #1's dmg is greater than equation #2's output than equation #1 is used.

in other words spellblade would deal magic damage for the greater value between:

Equation #1:

... deals 160% base AD magic damage (+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage.

Equation #2:

... deals 75% base AD (+ 50% AP) bonus magic damage.

Best of all lichbane could spellvamp on portion 1 of the equation at 50% or 75% reduced effectiveness

In fact even for aoe spells it can be pretty reliable justifying the 33% aoe reduction. perhaps some spells with aoe that only hit one target could give 100% effecitiveness however.

I also had this idea way back when: Allow Spellvamp to work on self casted shields and heals

i wouldn't mind if wota got 15% cdr. nor would i mind a small buff to spellvamp runes.. to 2.5ish

also see this suggestion: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xZR95Urf-giving-lifestealspellvamp-ability-to-ignore-20-or-25-of-target-resistances?comment=0004

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

spell vamp isn't too shabby imo. what it needs is this is more item synergy. I find that it works well with luden's echo. I would really like it if it worked with lichbane.

See this suggestion:

In fact even for aoe spells it can be pretty reliable justifying the 33% aoe reduction. perhaps some spells with aoe that only hit one target could give 100% effecitiveness however.

I also had this idea way back when: Allow Spellvamp to work on self casted shields and heals

i wouldn't mind if wota got 15% cdr. nor would i mind a small buff to spellvamp runes.. to 2.5ish

also see this suggestion: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xZR95Urf-giving-lifestealspellvamp-ability-to-ignore-20-or-25-of-target-resistances?comment=0004

This goes with the whole 'more spellvamp items' category, loving the lichbane idea. I like the way you think for the most part, but instead of on self shields and heals, why not make it on non self shields and heals? So it's like you're getting healed for a percentage of the heal/shield.

LilxPaprika1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HgJUJmsv,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-14T22:28:41.989+0000)

This goes with the whole 'more spellvamp items' category, loving the lichbane idea. I like the way you think for the most part, but instead of on self shields and heals, why not make it on non self shields and heals? So it's like you're getting healed for a percentage of the heal/shield.

Ya tell me about it. I really want to get the word out/run it by riot devs to have a sincere look at this lichbane suggestion it would really offer a lot of unlocked potential for this item.

this post might also intrigue you: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/QsAVNLnb-riot-request-to-have-these-item-modifications-added-to-pbe-for-testing

particularly for rageblade and gunblade changes

IcyPepper1 votes

Either spellvamp needs to be buffed up to lifesteal's level, or lifesteal needs to be brought down to spellvamp's level.

I'm not really sure about this. AP is more about nuking and base damages, and I don't think if a champion can 100-0 people they should heal up after it. AoE spellvamp is weak for a reason, especially since aoe lifesteal isn't exactly a thing. Lifesteal is mostly for sustained damage, and those champions that benefit the most from it (adc's specifically) are squishy enough to be 100-0'd by AP champions or at least out-ranged (which is why positioning is important for adc's). A lot of AP items that are considered core or at least amazing often come with some armor and health (ROA, Zhonyas, etc) while not many core adc items give any resistances at all (IE, PD, and LW give no defenses. Black Cleaver can be debated, I suppose, but it's not as powerful as the first three items while a mage benefits more from rushing Zhonyas as a first item than deathcap). LIfesteal is the defensive stat for adc's, and in a fair fight between an adc and an apc, cc and nuke damage can easily surpass lifesteal.

But I'm definite for more building options, though. Some lane sustain should be alright, I'm just worried that nuke spells (especially single -target) will top off the user's health almost immediately. At least it take adc's some time to get full health, which is slower early game and due to the nature of sustained damage, more easily interrupted by cc than nuke damage and cooldown rotations.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really sure about this. AP is more about nuking and base damages, and I don't think if a champion can 100-0 people they should heal up after it. AoE spellvamp is weak for a reason, especially since aoe lifesteal isn't exactly a thing. Lifesteal is mostly for sustained damage, and those champions that benefit the most from it (adc's specifically) are squishy enough to be 100-0'd by AP champions or at least out-ranged (which is why positioning is important for adc's). A lot of AP items that are considered core or at least amazing often come with some armor and health (ROA, Zhonyas, etc) while not many core adc items give any resistances at all (IE, PD, and LW give no defenses. Black Cleaver can be debated, I suppose, but it's not as powerful as the first three items while a mage benefits more from rushing Zhonyas as a first item than deathcap). LIfesteal is the defensive stat for adc's, and in a fair fight between an adc and an apc, cc and nuke damage can easily surpass lifesteal.

But I'm definite for more building options, though. Some lane sustain should be alright, I'm just worried that nuke spells (especially single -target) will top off the user's health almost immediately. At least it take adc's some time to get full health, which is slower early game and due to the nature of sustained damage, more easily interrupted by cc than nuke damage and cooldown rotations.

There are a vast number of different types of mages and you're going to lump them all into burst mages? That's just closeminded. As for spellvamp being powerful on burst mages, that simply isn't an issue tbh. You'd be building it on your sustain damage mages. Those with low cooldowns and those that rely on kiting, not burst mages. Plus even if they did, what's the difference if my spell hits you for 700 or the enemy adc crits you for 700? None, they'd still heal the same amount whether it was spellvamp or lifesteal. Difference is, lifesteal can consistently be used on minion waves to sustain during lane while most mages would go oom if they tried that.

Stop bringing up Zhonyas. This is a discussion about lifesteal and spellvamp, Zhonyas gives neither of those stats and it's just derailing the thread. The AD equivalent of Zhonyas is Merc Scim. Just like AD champs would kill to have a Zhonyas, AP champs would kill to have a Merc Scim.

IcyPepper2 votes

Stop bringing up Zhonyas. This is a discussion about lifesteal and spellvamp, Zhonyas gives neither of those stats and it's just derailing the thread.

Did you not even see the point of me bringing up Zhonyas? Lifesteal and spellvamp are defensive stats, I was talking about stats. Lifesteal and spellvamp are not the only factors to consider when balancing them. Adc's generally cannot build defenses early outside of lifesteal (and occasionally health, if you count triforce and cleaver, which a certain niche rush), which is why lifesteal is generally stronger than spellvamp. Mages can build health and armor early as well as AP. Sure, adc's can get QSS and Merc Scim, but they generally don't rush it because it's useless early-game bot lane against another adc.

But to say I'm derailing the thread about considering item building and defensive/offensive stat building options is... kind of ignorant, to be honest. It's like you either didn't read my thread, or didn't consider that spellvamp and lifesteal are balanced for reasons beyond just spellvamp and lifesteal. It's like why there's a reason there's not a lot of AD items that give armor, or AP items that give magic resist, instead most of them give health and there's a reason for that.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

Did you not even see the point of me bringing up Zhonyas? Lifesteal and spellvamp are defensive stats, I was talking about stats. Lifesteal and spellvamp are not the only factors to consider when balancing them. Adc's generally cannot build defenses early outside of lifesteal (and occasionally health, if you count triforce and cleaver, which a certain niche rush), which is why lifesteal is generally stronger than spellvamp. Mages can build health and armor early as well as AP. Sure, adc's can get QSS and Merc Scim, but they generally don't rush it because it's useless early-game bot lane against another adc.

But to say I'm derailing the thread about considering item building and defensive/offensive stat building options is... kind of ignorant, to be honest. It's like you either didn't read my thread, or didn't consider that spellvamp and lifesteal are balanced for reasons beyond just spellvamp and lifesteal. It's like why there's a reason there's not a lot of AD items that give armor, or AP items that give magic resist, instead most of them give health and there's a reason for that.

ADC champions have defensive options too, just not early game. Early game is supposed to be their weakest point. That's why they have an entire ally to help them with defense, that's why the support typically joins the ADC bot lane. Then once lane phase is over, they stop relying on the support who now has to watch everyone's back, they build defensively with say a merc scim, or a GA, or Banshees, Hell, even a Zephyr or Hexdrinker. The point I'm trying to make here is that spellvamp is pretty much an awful choice on every champion excluding like three at the moment because of how weak the stat is, not because those champs wouldn't do well with it. Comparatively, lifesteal as a stat is incredibly strong.

That's the point I'm making. I understand that AP champions have other forms of defense, but what you don't understand is those cost gold too. Sure they can get Zhonyas first item, but what if the enemy they're facing is another mage? What if they need extra mana? What if they can't instantly afford the 3300 gold that Zhonyas costs? What if spellvamp was a useful option that they could go to instead?

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