Can we not turn Rek'Sai into another Elise?

Guy Fox Teemo·Jun 27, 2015·87 votes·6,215 views

I heard a Rioter say in a red post by Surrenderat20.net, that they're looking at nerfing her again, is she really that strong? Doesn't seem like it every time I run into someone play her. Seems perfectly balanced to me, lets not have another elise plz.

They want to nerf one of the only things good about her kit to :(, She doesn't do any damage so people build pure tank rek'sai (Maybe a trinity force) she'll become just a pure meat shield if she gets nerf on her knock up, might as well walk around laughing in a team fight blocking skills shots, cause your useless.

Thoughts?

Nerf Or No?

122 Comments

Vistha KaiJun 27, 201544 votes

Let's compare them. Elise - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Cocoon bot. RekSai - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Unburrow bot.

Lord DusteonJun 27, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HbhEYA8Q,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-27T20:12:36.770+0000)

Let's compare them. - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Cocoon bot. - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Unburrow bot.

Rest in piece damage Rek'Sai.

TheRakkunJun 27, 201527 votes

This is why riot really needs to stop making 6 ability champs (List not counting champs that have an enhanced form EG Rengar Shyvana Karma

Gnar Meh, balanced now, broken at release once people new how to play him. Elise Nerfed into oblivion Jayce Nerfed into oblivion RekSai Nerfed into oblivion LeeSin Broken as fuck, just not that bad now it's tank meta Nidalee Broken Heimerdinger Fuck you

Vistha KaiJun 27, 20152 votes

I'd argue Ekko got properly nerfed.

I mean, I played aganist him and I didn't get an impression of "overnerfed" state I get when playing aganist, say, Yasuo or Elise.

EDIT: And why did I get downvoted? Ekko lovers or because I said Yasuo is weak?

TheRakkunJun 27, 20153 votes

Oh I didn't mean Ekko I meant elise, sorry wrong icon. Also Yasuo isn't overnerfed.

Vistha KaiJun 27, 20151 votes

Well, maybe. Maybe not.

Nerfed enough to make me play him only 3 times in the past 4 months or so. Considering I had about 180 ranked games with him in previous two seasons, he's pretty nerfed for me. Oh, and I had much higher winrate with him too.

TheRakkunJun 27, 20151 votes

Hmm maybe, I still think he can carry, he's in a poppy state, you can't buff him or he'll be unbearable. Honestly I wish riot could force him into toplane, his passive is too strong against poke based champs, which often dominate mid.

Vistha KaiJun 27, 20152 votes

He can't carry without a wombo, nor he's in a Poppy state. He was unnecessarily nerfed when he was balanced - for good measure it seems - but his kit isn't inherently flawed as Poppy's.

I do not know, maybe it's just that I played Yasuo and know how to play aganist him. I think I've said it a thousand times by now, but ever since Yasuo release I haven't lost lane to him unless he was basically playing a duo lane with his jungler. Even than most likely any other champion could push the advantage and win sooner/at all.

"But mah wombo", there are more flexible combos follow ups than Yasuo's. I mean, how different it is than one of the oldest ones of Malphite+Orianna? In that any of those two can be the initiation. Yasuo can't.

TheRakkunJun 27, 20151 votes

Well I haven't really lost a lane yo a yasuo but I haven't been presuming it's because it's weak, I presume it's because I'm in a low ELO where high skillcap champions are played so terribly. My main problems with yasuo is that he's a ball of stats. Passively his crit is doubled Gets bonus A-Pen on his ult

He doesn't need to be the one to knock enemies up to activate his ultimate, this is annoying as he doesn't actually have to be a playmaker

That passive is so annoying against poke champions

Vistha KaiJun 27, 20151 votes

Which passive? Flow shield? Just AA him once. There goes his passive for the next 15 seconds.

Myself I played aganist Yasuo players even from low Diamond and they weren't impressive.

Actually the only impressive thing about Yasuo is how flashy he is while being carried by the rest of the team.

Ball of stats my ass. When you do the math his double crit barely outdamages an ADC with the same build.

TheRakkunJun 27, 20152 votes

That requires you to get close to him for most midlaners, at which point he gains the advantage as he then has a safer initiate.

Vistha KaiJun 27, 20151 votes

Most mid laners are ranged and should have some CC. If he just E's into a mage with all spells off cooldown he's going to have a bad time.

manbearswineJun 28, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HbhEYA8Q,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-27T22:46:56.826+0000)

Most mid laners are ranged and should have some CC. If he just E's into a mage with all spells off cooldown he's going to have a bad time.

If only he had some way to negate abilities...

His kit is inherently flawed,a spammable dash and windwall make him extremely obnoxious as a champion,sure you can counterpick him with something like annie,but most people don't see annie as healthy either,so he is either obnoxious himself,or forces obnoxious picks out of the enemy team,great design.

Also the issue is you could pick ali(and things of the sort) into yasuo,you don't have to try to make a combo with him,you are strong enough by yourself,as a bonus he can also ult off of that,so a champion who can be an extreamly obnoxious counterpick to skillshot based champions also requires something out of his teammates,I guess that's something.

Oh and also,the very notion of melee adcs in general is idiotic,you cannot make it work in a healthy way,either it's cancer,either it's not a melee adc.

*Melee adc is generally seen as glass canon melee ad dps(so jax for example isn't see as such,as he is not glass canon,riven isn't seen as such because she is more of a cast,and also has her shield),this is generally the way that term is used here,but if it bothers you then change my last paragraph with the following:

Glass canon melee dps is inherently flawed and can never be made to work in a healthy way.

1GN171ONJun 28, 20152 votes

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Slamurai JackJun 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

You are adorable. Clearly someone who doesn't even play the champion.

Rinky DinkyJun 28, 20154 votes

Jayce is fine now I think

Nidalee Is annoying, but not as bad. I can't say she needs a nerf right now. Certainly not broken.

Heimerdinger Inhale the mighty dong

Gnar OP, not broken. Broken implies the kit can never be balanced. Ex: Poppy

LeeSin I hate this champion. No comment xD

Vistha KaiJun 28, 20151 votes

You responded to a wrong dude, dude.

Rinky DinkyJun 28, 20151 votes

rip me

Vistha KaiJun 28, 20151 votes

Don't make me radiotherapy you!

SammystormJun 28, 201512 votes

Jayce Top lcs pick and got a pretty substantial buff last patch. RekSai Tier 1 jungler. Only jungler that is as good as her is Gragas LeeSin Not picked right now and hasn't been particularly over powered in a while. Nidalee Not in the meta Heimerdinger Not sure what he has to do with anything Gnar Tier 1 top laner along with Hecarim , Fizz , Ekko

TheRakkunJun 28, 20154 votes

Let me guess you're using NerfPlz, the site that thinks Azir is a tier 2 mid. Jayce was actually a net nerf last patch as he still has the same stats basically but now they're spread over an extra level. Rek'sai is now made to be a tank which was never the bloody point of her, she's basically a unburrow bot now, her damage build is completely ruined Lee Sin, I never said was overpowered I said he was broken, Toxic. Nidalee is broken, toxic Heimer is a toxic champ, the point of my post was to say that riot should stop making champs with 6 abilities because they end up either horribly broken or end up nerfed into oblivion And I said that Gnar was OK, but he was ridiculous at release once people knew how to build him.

Akali MIA CareJun 28, 20154 votes

"Heimer is a toxic champ, the point of my post was to say that riot should stop making champs with 6 abilities" .... but.. " (List not counting champs that have an enhanced form EG reng shyv karma"

Hey mate, i don't know if you're aware. but heimer's ult enhances his other abilities. kinda like karma.

He doesn't have 6 abilities.

DengedenJun 28, 20151 votes

[...] the site that thinks Azir is a tier 2 mid.

Which he is. He's just hard to play and his Insec is team reliant.

Jayce was actually a net nerf last patch as he still has the same stats basically but now they're spread over an extra level.

Except it wasn't because only some of his abilities got that treatment.

Rek'sai is now made to be a tank which was never the bloody point of her, she's basically a unburrow bot now, her damage build is completely ruined

Riiiiiiight, because we all love full damage melees. Boy are they fun to play against, I'm surprised Riot isn't making more.

Lee Sin, I never said was overpowered I said he was broken, Toxic. Nidalee is broken, toxic

Every champion excels at their play style. Tanks, supports, adcs etc. all can be unbelievably frustrating to play against. If you want to be consistent, that's all "toxic" too.

TheRakkunJun 28, 20153 votes

Hard to play does not mean incapable of solo carrying. He is. VERY MUCH SO.

DengedenJun 29, 20151 votes

For his Insec to not be a kamikaze, he needs his team. That's not solo carrying in my book.

SammystormJun 28, 20152 votes

I have never heard of nerfplz.

Jayce got a slightly weaker early game for a better mid to late game.

Saying that Rek'sai is "nerfed into oblivion" when she is one of the best junglers is the game is dumb. It doesn't matter how she is built. The fact is that she is very good right now and not "nerfed into oblivion".

How exactly is Lee Sin "broken"? His kit hasn't particularly been buggy or not functioning properly. So I assumed you were talking about him being strong. Either way you are not correct; his kit isn't broken and he isn't over powered right now.

Nidalee is also not broken. All the bugs that relate to her are not solely to her but to skill shots as a whole. You can make an argument for her being toxic but that would be based solely on opinion.

How exactly is heimer toxic?

Gnar is still very good.

I understand your opinion about champs with 6 abilities but saying that all those champions were "nerfed to oblivion" when the reality is that every single one except elise are tier 1. 6 ability champs clearly weren't nerfed to oblivion.

TheRakkunJun 28, 20152 votes

Broken means Toxic

Lee is toxic as his kit provides too much of everything

Heimer is toxic as he's an ungankable menace that forces you to push lane and play unsafe unless you want your towers taken, you can't even all in him as his turrets will likely make sure he goes even.

Nidalee is toxic as she has one of the highest damage "Pokes" in the game.

And I said gnar was good.

Rek'Sai WAS nerfed into oblivion, what we have left isn't rek'sai, it's not what she was intended to do, she's not meant to be some cinderhulk lugging unburrow bot, she's meant to be a mid-game map controlling terror, she was nerfed out of her identity into something that she doesn't even resemble anymore.

AtheliousJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Broken means Toxic

Lee is toxic as his kit provides too much of everything

Heimer is toxic as he's an ungankable menace that forces you to push lane and play unsafe unless you want your towers taken, you can't even all in him as his turrets will likely make sure he goes even.

Nidalee is toxic as she has one of the highest damage "Pokes" in the game.

And I said gnar was good.

Rek'Sai WAS nerfed into oblivion, what we have left isn't rek'sai, it's not what she was intended to do, she's not meant to be some cinderhulk lugging unburrow bot, she's meant to be a mid-game map controlling terror, she was nerfed out of her identity into something that she doesn't even resemble anymore.

A toxic kit doesn't mean the champion is broken i actually don't think you know what the definition of a toxic kit is lol... but i will explain anyways, examples of toxic kits are Mordekaiser, Vladimir, Yorick, Olafs old kit just things that make it unfun to play against, ever try to lane against a Vlad who knows what hes doing? Or a Yorick that keeps harassing you with his ghouls? Toxic doesn't mean broken, I wish people would stop thinking this, the only one i can really agree on you with a toxic kit is nidalee but that's about it.

VerxintJun 28, 20151 votes

Actually, the problem is that Riot doesn't have effective AD Bruiser itemization. It's either Full AD or full Tank. RekSai is the poster child of this - if she gets enough damage in her kit to build tanky DPS, she just builds full damage and becomes a carry. If she gets nerfed so she can't build like Yi, she has to build full tank or she dies too fast.

The state the game is in right now favors people who can build tank and still do lots of damage, or build full damage and kite/get peeled by tanks.

We need items that are good for tanky DPS but not for pure DPS or pure tanks. The new BC was a start, but it only does so much and isn't as good on RekSai as it is on other people. The people who can get away with tanky DPS builds usually have somewhat loaded kits (Irelia, Xin, Jax).

TourianJun 28, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HbhEYA8Q,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-27T20:12:36.770+0000)

Let's compare them. - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Cocoon bot. - dealt too much damage, everything about her got nerfed, became a Unburrow bot.

Riot confirmed to be against strong, independent female champions.

LittleGrimmieJun 29, 20152 votes

Logged in just to +1 this.

TourianJun 29, 20151 votes

Godbless you and welcome to the big dick club, thank you for the support, godbless

AbyssphereJun 27, 201515 votes

I am worried about this too. I'll be honest, I do still think Rek'Sai is strong and... something should be done there. The ban rate is huge and the LCS ban pick/ban is insane, probably higher than Elise was before she got gutted. However, they really just seem to be hitting her randomly at this stage. The health nerf was just completely random a few months ago and radius reduction on her knockup seems similar. That is exactly what happened with Elise, they just randomly hit everything she had until everything sucked. Rek'Sai could very easily get into that state too.

JoquanJun 28, 20152 votes

they are nerfing her tankyness because of the damage she dealt with warriors. When people switched to cinderhulk and she become a AOE damage knockup bot, they are making sure she isn't going to be able to get as many people.

Reksai is strong as long as she has tremor sense if you ask me. it's counter to champs such as rengar/evelyn/twitch and makign sure you don't get ganked is good.

Variks the LoyalJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

they are nerfing her tankyness because of the damage she dealt with warriors. When people switched to cinderhulk and she become a AOE damage knockup bot, they are making sure she isn't going to be able to get as many people.

Reksai is strong as long as she has tremor sense if you ask me. it's counter to champs such as rengar/evelyn/twitch and makign sure you don't get ganked is good.

The issue is they're already reduced her damage, twice I believe.

It's okay to nerf her tankiness and utility. But without it or damage, she has little. She needs one or the other.

JoquanJun 28, 20151 votes

Which is why most reksai I see go into cinderhulk. They have damage early, then become a tank to Peel and Initiate later in the game.

Variks the LoyalJun 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Which is why most reksai I see go into cinderhulk. They have damage early, then become a tank to Peel and Initiate later in the game.

Rek'Sai does not have good damage early, in fact. Not since it's been nerfed twice.

And I don't trust a Rek'Sai's initiation and peel (Which is getting looked at for nerfs) over, say, a Sejuani jungle, or a Malphite jungle, or even Gragas jungle. She only has one form of CC, so her initiation is lacking.

Rek'Sai is supposed to be a high damage bruiser - lots of sustained damage, with limited tankiness. Right now, she doesn't really fit that fantasy, because she's been nerfed (Like Elise) so many times.

76SummersJun 27, 20154 votes

Seriously this is getting out of hand rek sai isn't op.....why are they doing this?

ErockandrollJun 27, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Seriously this is getting out of hand rek sai isn't op.....why are they doing this?

She's being overly picked in the LCS, and they want to change that because it's becoming stale.

As for Rek'sai being picked in the LCS, despite her multiple nerfs to her damage and dueling. She still has a massive amount on power on her Global Ult. Like she's the TF of the Jungle. At this rate, she will become completely team reliant.

MxWhiteKnightJun 28, 20154 votes

Which is why LCS is killing the game for the other people.

Because LCS is basically Ranked 5's. And barely 5% of the player base main ranked 5's. So in solo queue we get shafted because the game is balanced around pros playing 5v5s.

DengedenJun 28, 20152 votes

I seriously doubt that. Firstly, most patches have 80% balance tweaks that affect everyone and 20% LCS stuff. In this case, who is affected? The 10 people who play damage Rek'Sai?

Secondly, I'd say the meta is so restrictive that soloQ is basically LCS with more throws.

Drunk RummateJun 27, 20153 votes

I think she would be fine if she didn't have tremor sense. Seriously fuck that ability. At least Rengar's detection is tied to his ult...

ShadowParkerJun 27, 20159 votes

She needs that tremor sense, what are you talking about?

kunkudunkJun 27, 20152 votes

Yeah it's all she has left at this point.

4th Chiming LambJun 28, 20152 votes

Tremor Sense is what makes Rek'Sai Rek'Sai. Without it, she'd just be a... Janna/Shyvana hybrid. And you forget that Rengar can detect who you are. Rek can only tell that something exists in that spot right now.

MxWhiteKnightJun 28, 20152 votes

Because it's a permanent ability. Rengo is an ULT. with atleast 50 secs of CD.

Slamurai JackJun 27, 20153 votes

If they have to nerf anything, I would rather they nerf her MS bonus while burrowed. Raise her base MS to compensate for all I care; she can already gank me from any direction with a really long gap closer and can use her knockup to interrupt any escape, why is she also way faster than me?

4th Chiming LambJun 28, 20153 votes

Even though Rek'Sai is one of my mains, this never really made any Sense to me. She has to move rocks n' shit out of the way while she's burrowed, so how is she faster this way?

Hard4HamstersJun 28, 20152 votes

I think if they were to nerf her, it should be in her utility (tremor sense range reduction) or her Ult CD (less global pressure from having a longer CD on the ability). I don't think anything else really needs to change (maybe her ridic jungle sustain); I'm not a fan of reducing her knockup radius as her knockup is her only form of CC.

She SHOULD be good in the early game, but I feel like her utility and map pressure keep her more relevant in the lategame than most other fighters in the jungle.

Another thing is that they could give buffs to other junglers that seem to be hurting right now. Then again, if they get buffed like Elise, maybe it would be best to leave them alone.