I love how diverse the jungle is.

Poptart Evelynn··109 votes·7,116 views

JarvanIV Vi Nidalee LeeSin RekSai

Yay I have 5 choices of viability or else I'm playing the hunger games.

The first jungler has one of the strongest ganks in the game on a 13 second cooldown. The second one can just look at camps and they give up their lunch money. The third can clear the entire jungle in under 30 seconds(both buffs included) and be 100% health then go to the enemy jungle and kill them at their third camp. (Spear didn't kill? Ok I just jump to you hope you have 2 flashes... o wait...) The fourth one is allowed to build one ad item and do tons of damage(560% ad ratio hurr durr oh I think it needs an additional 8% missing health in the end too just to be fair) because he "landed his one skillshot". Brilliant. The fifth one I'm scared that my unburrow might bug on a cc and just become a sitting duck for next 5 seconds as for whatever reason I'm just not allowed to move or unburrow. But that doesn't matter because all you have to do is smash your dick on the keyboard and you pentakill anyways.

*Meanwhile anything else I pick I'm playing hunger games in the dark with the enemy jungler praying to god they don't get me first. I totally enjoy doing 2-3 camps and a scuttle then being like "Holy fuck I survived wolves" or "I'll think about doing raptors 15 minutes in the game". *

Oh and if I'm not picking one of those 5 god forbid an ally wants my help and is behind(Inb4 report jungler for no ganks). I'd love to try and gank your lane as I'm level 4 and the guy I have to help kill is level 7. YAY.

I just don't understand the point of these jungle changes IMO. But hey "Muh Diversity". Tbh these junglers aren't outclassing the other ones. The other ones have to play hunger games is the issue.(Raptors should start laning they can probably get to Challenger at how strong they are)

TL:DR Fuck the jungle, probably going to quit it at this rate and go learn some lanes.

Edit - Alright people seem to think that I mean "no one else" can jungle. Sure stuff like Fiddlesticks and Sejuani can jungle perfectly fine but what you are missing is that they have EXTREMELY EASY to abuse weaknesses. You can't tell me that Sej is as viable as jarvan at every moment of the game. No, she is very weak at certain points and has a horrible first clear. Yes you "can" do well with others. I mean I do well with kha all the time. But the issue is that those top 5 have none of those weaknesses(Except maybe nid, she has some). Why play something with weaknesses when you can just pick J4 and do EVERYTHING perfectly easy. His only weakness is the player using him(hue).

135 Comments

Tsugaga19 votes

Fiddle, Nocturne, Jax, Yi, Panth, Rengar, Shaco, and Udyr work fine too, that's 13 good junglers.

Poptart Evelynn77 votes

{quoted}

Fiddle, Nocturne, Jax, Yi, Panth, Rengar, Shaco, and Udyr work fine too, that's 13 good junglers.

I can't tell if you're serious or just talking about bronze/normals.

"Checks history, ALL VI HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMFG MY SIDES" http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Tsugaga

(Not intending this to be rude btw, just is funny)

Tsugaga15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rawr Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T01:23:37.300+0000)

I can't tell if you're serious or just talking about bronze/normals.

"Checks history, ALL VI HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMFG MY SIDES" http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Tsugaga

So? The champs that I personally enjoy playing have 100% absolutely nothing to do with who's good or who's balanced. I played 1 Vi game a long time ago when I bought her, and decided to practice her starting a few weeks ago. I like to get good with champs I like so I play them 50-250+ games in a row, and that's what I'm doing with Vi and is the same thing that I've done with Ahri, Amumu, Annie, Brand, Darius, Gangplank, Janna, Jarvan, Jax, LeBlanc, Lee, Malz, Yi, Morde, Noc, Riven, Singed, Tryn, Udyr, and WW.

Yeah I think Vi is strong, but I'd still play her if she got nerfed, I play her to get better and because she's a really cool champion. The champions in my match history are an indicator of which champions I like, not which are viable. Before Vi I had played like 100 games in a row as Yi, that doesn't mean he's an OP jungler, I just like Yi.

And yes it's just normals I'm talking about, but my normals are diamond MMR and have diamond, master, and challenger ranked players in them.

Poptart Evelynn33 votes

{quoted}

So? The champs that I personally enjoy playing have 100% absolutely nothing to do with who's good or who's balanced. I played 1 Vi game a long time ago when I bought her, and decided to practice her starting a few weeks ago. I like to get good with champs I like so I play them 50-250+ games in a row, and that's what I'm doing with Vi and is the same thing that I've done with Ahri, Amumu, Annie, Brand, Darius, Gangplank, Janna, Jarvan, Jax, LeBlanc, Lee, Malz, Yi, Morde, Noc, Riven, Singed, Tryn, Udyr, and WW.

Yeah I think Vi is strong, but I'd still play her if she got nerfed, I play her to get better and because she's a really cool champion. The champions in my match history are an indicator of which champions I like, not which are viable. Before Vi I had played like 100 games in a row as Yi, that doesn't mean he's an OP jungler, I just like Yi.

And yes it's just normals I'm talking about, but my normals are diamond MMR and have diamond, master, and challenger ranked players in them.

You don't play the other junglers yet you want to judge them. You only see from the other side and you tend to do 10x better than them everytime. It's almost like you have no idea of the struggles these junglers go through in order to carry or win. I main kha jungle and let me tell you. I feel like I'm in an intense action move against the raptors.

A Superb Villain33 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rawr Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-27T02:19:03.297+0000)

I main kha jungle and let me tell you. I feel like I'm in an intense action move against the raptors.

You win.

/thread

captainkaiger15 votes

Then pick up a different jungler? Sion is crazy strong in jungle or lane, but never oppressive because he can fuck up hard. Fiddle has one of the few game changing ults, has tons of sustain, and a good bit of cc. Sej, though admittedly weak early has huge ganking potential.

I main jungle. Not X champ that I can sometimes carry as, I picked a role. I know how to play decently well in lanes, but I'm at home in the jungle.

Or you could learn to work on champs weaknesses. Nidalee is weak getting counterganked, I should be Nunu. They have a level 3 Fiddle, let's invade him when his fear is down. Things like this.

But I'm just a lowly unranked person "who shouldn't get an opinion because OP doesn't like that I'm not directly supporting their own opinion."

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

[deleted]

Edbwn5 votes

Dude, pull the stick out of your ass :( please.

Poptart Evelynn5 votes

{quoted}

Dude, pull the stick out of your ass :( please.

People just expressing their opinions whether it be positive or negative it's how they feel. If you don't like what someone says then move along lol.

Edbwn7 votes

I get that, but everything you've been saying has been really negative and hostile. We really don't need more of that on the boards, man :(

Poptart Evelynn3 votes

{quoted}

I get that, but everything you've been saying has been really negative and hostile. We really don't need more of that on the boards, man :(

What are you talking about? I'm just expressing my thoughts on the jungle in a joking manner. I'm not going to change who I am to fit your needs. I'm not name calling, I'm not yelling at anyone, and I'm most certainly not being negative. It's just an aggressively funny way to put how the state of the jungle is.

Go browse some other forums. Many other avid junglers of challenger tier have all stated this same issue atm.

Go read what Stonewall or even Foxdrop said.

Kowe The Ewok7 votes

Actually you're hostile...

Just saying as an independant 3rd party...

As for Rawars initial statement (which I assume was what you considered hostile)

I have to side with him, it actually is pretty damn hilarious to see 47 consecutive Vi matches in a row.

Tbh. I laughed as well when I saw that and read your comments about outher junglers being fine, while it is so obvious that you were are continiously abusing one of the top notch picks.

This is the very definition of being biased.

I think rawr has a pretty damn good reason to claim that.

Edbwn7 votes

#teamSionJungle

A Supreme Sloth3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rawr Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-27T02:19:03.297+0000)

I main kha jungle and let me tell you. I feel like I'm in an intense action move against the raptors.

lol I dont even do the raptors until like 3rd round if I am a nonmeta jg, the bitchouts are real... I see too many junglers die to that ungodly camp item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

Hard Penetrator8 votes

Xin Rengar and Yi are fine. Jarvan just got a nerf (-18armor) and his 13 sec cooldown gank can be avoided by sidestep or dash. Vi should probably get some nerfs and Lee needs a remake.

Explain me when League of Legends had NO TIERS in jungle. You always had best, second best, medicore, meh and terrible ones. You never had more than 5 TOP picks in jungle at one time not because of riot balance issues but because players preferences, meta shifts and other popular champions that synergise with certain picks. Riot through buffs and nerfs cycles can mash things up a bit but generally its up to players what is crazy popular and what is not.

Also I don't play Jarvan jungle since E+Q nerf, I love him top tough. Do you think I had easiest time of my life against Riven, Sion, Gnar, Mao or Irelia? It was a fair battle, now Jarv got nerfed while other strong tops weren't so basically I got hitfor trying some diversity top.

thinking man3 votes

{quoted}

Fiddle, Nocturne, Jax, Yi, Panth, Rengar, Shaco, and Udyr work fine too, that's 13 good junglers.

bolded are the reasons why you need to stop shitposting

Tsugaga18 votes

{quoted}

bolded are the reasons why you need to stop shitposting

Relax. It's annoying that people can't even post on the League forum without being trash talked, harassed, and down voted. I get more toxicity when I come to the boards than I do while playing a game.

I never said those champs are top tier or amazing junglers, but can they jungle and win games? Yes they can.

Adrian Blackbear12 votes

Apparently having an unpopular opinion in boards means you are allowed to be harassed. That's just based on what I've seen recently.

PlaguedWings5 votes

It's sad, really. I may not have had the best posts/comments, but if you're not part of the toxic circle jerk, you get the ass end of the community. I miss the old forums where this wasn't an issue

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Yeah, that happens too often. It's like when I make champion concepts (only made 2, trying to be unique in some sense) and both concepts got downvoted for no reason. 1st one had some comments, at least, but 2nd one got no comments besides from Lutzenburg, who I asked to take a look at the concept. I replied to someone where they were talking about Evelynn/Sona (two different conversations), and I gave an idea of a kit change for Evelynn... downvoted. IDK about the Sona thing, but I'm pretty sure that one got downvoted too. There are indeed very strong junglers who do better, and there are the junglers who are strong, but are weaker because they aren't the best at sustain or clear time. Pantheon and Shaco are both very strong, with Jarvan and Lee and Vi beside them. Xin and Udyr are also there. There are just too many popular "easy win" jungle picks that become the only choices for who to be the most important presence in the game with.

PlaguedWings1 votes

This community has fallen off really hard what it means to be diverse and how to have fun. The community isn't exactly helping this game age. I may be low elo, but we should totally play some time :)

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I'm still unranked as of this new season :D (finished promos last season to get placed into silver V, and now I'm too lazy to finish up my last 9 games (first one was nami support against malph and trist and i had sivir adc... wasnt the best considering garen kind of made vlad obese)) BE WARNED: I want to try AP Support Shaco after watching Solwolf do it back in season 3(?) XD

PlaguedWings1 votes

Add me, my IGN is the same as here :D

And play AP Shaco away, I don't care, fuck the meta, lol

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

HALLELUAH (meh) CHORUS PLAYS

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Blackbear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T06:20:07.448+0000)

Apparently having an unpopular opinion in boards means you are allowed to be harassed. That's just based on what I've seen recently.

Yep. People are sheep really

LeeDark1 votes

Except he's right. Have a look at this:

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=jungle-matchup&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

The ONLY champ doing as well as Lee Sin is Pantheon. He matches up favorably against both Jarvan and Vi... and for the same reason Lee Sin is dominating that chart: early pressure. They can't duel Panth because of his Aegis, and he has strong early ganks with a point and click stun. However, he falls hard to Lee Sin because he is less useful late. So why bother picking Pantheon if you can pick Lee Sin instead? You might say, "Oh, well he does well, so if the enemy picks Lee Sin, pick him." Except he fails miserably against Lee Sin.

Fiddle does poorly against both Rek'sai and Lee Sin, so you better ban those out if you want to play him. He also does poorly if the opponent has even the slightest amount of vision. He is easy to shut down, which is why, if you limit the chart to the upper brackets, he does even worse.

Nocturne has a very poor clear, was largely screwed by the fear changes, and generally does what Vi does, but not nearly as well. Jax needs farm, both gold and exp, and does not get that in the jungle, further delaying the late game that is his bread and butter. Yi, like Fiddle, only shows up in the lower brackets, because he is too easy to CC and focus. Rengar is a difficult early clear, Shaco has a poor late game, and Udyr is easily kited.

Granted, not all of them have problems that are related to just the jungle being what it is this season, but the stats don't lie. Lee Sin and Vi are absolutely crowding out other junglers who have similar strengths, but are simply not strong enough. All of the top four are generalists that can contribute everywhere they go during the entire game. A huge part of this is what Foxdrop and Stonewall alluded to: the jungle is simply too difficult for some champs early on. They fail to contribute early because they aren't healthy enough for ganks compared to the big four, they fail to farm effectively in the jungle and are punished for using Trailblazer to farm better, and they are unable to remain relevant in the late game, either because their kit isn't suited to it or because they were completely outclassed the rest of the game by one of the top four junglers.

St3AmR0lleR2 votes

You are reading the chart wrong, the bottom of the chart shows the champion and the left side is their opponent. So according to this chart Lee Sin does poorly against every single champion(based on win rate).

LeeDark2 votes

That has to be mislabeled, because if you look up individual champion stats, Lee Sin is doing much better than that.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

{quoted}

That has to be mislabeled, because if you look up individual champion stats, Lee Sin is doing much better than that.

It's just a list of the top 5 current junglers. Not anything else and no order.

BallisticMouse2 votes

Also checks match history 95% Vi games, 5% Master Yi.

Checks Champion History in Normals (I choose Normals because you seem to play those the most) 1 Game as Fiddle, 1W - 0L 0 Games as Nocturne 1 Game as Jax, 0W - 1L 31 Games as Master Yi, 15W - 16L 1 Game as Pantheon, 1W - 0L 5 Games as Shaco, 3W - 2L 4 Games as Udyr, 1W - 3L

While the wins and losses with these champions don't say much with how fast an easy win can go to a quick loss, your amount of playing these champions does. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, although personally I disagree on a lot of these, but I am saying your opinion doesn't have much backing to it.

For the record, I agree with you on Master Yi, Pantheon, Shaco and slightly agree on Jax and Udyr.

Tsugaga3 votes

{quoted}

Also checks match history 95% Vi games, 5% Master Yi.

Checks Champion History in Normals (I choose Normals because you seem to play those the most) 1 Game as Fiddle, 1W - 0L 0 Games as Nocturne 1 Game as Jax, 0W - 1L 31 Games as Master Yi, 15W - 16L 1 Game as Pantheon, 1W - 0L 5 Games as Shaco, 3W - 2L 4 Games as Udyr, 1W - 3L

While the wins and losses with these champions don't say much with how fast an easy win can go to a quick loss, your amount of playing these champions does. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, although personally I disagree on a lot of these, but I am saying your opinion doesn't have much backing to it.

For the record, I agree with you on Master Yi, Pantheon, Shaco and slightly agree on Jax and Udyr.

Are you talking about me, and my recent games? Like I said, I often mainly play the same champ for 50-250+ games in a row, so in the past 500 games you would mostly see Annie, Vi, Yi, and some Noc. Fiddle is the one I play the least simply because I don't like playing him. So I don't know what those games that you mentioned have to do with anything I said. The junglers I mentioned are playable and can win, otherwise they would have a 0% win rate.

BallisticMouse2 votes

I'm not talking about your recent match history, i'm talking about the champions you've played in Normal over a long amount of time, since LoL started saving that. Websites will show that data.

Tsugaga1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking about your recent match history, i'm talking about the champions you've played in Normal over a long amount of time, since LoL started saving that. Websites will show that data.

Huh? I've played a lot of champions, still no idea what you're talking about. Anything within the past 500 games is recent to me. I've played nearly 10,000 games of League since season 1, my past 100 games don't mean anything.

BallisticMouse2 votes

League of Legends tracks all your games. Not sure how long they've been doing it but they do.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=Tsugaga - Go to Champions, then Normal matches. It shows what champions you've played in normals and shows what I said to be right.

Tsugaga1 votes

{quoted}

League of Legends tracks all your games. Not sure how long they've been doing it but they do.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=Tsugaga - Go to Champions, then Normal matches. It shows what champions you've played in normals and shows what I said to be right.

Yeah, those are my recent 100-200 games, what's your point? That's like 1% of my play history. I have over 3,000 normal wins and those win/loss stats don't add up to 3,000+, so clearly that site is missing data.

BallisticMouse2 votes

Please feel free to share where it says it's your recent matches.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, those are my recent 100-200 games, what's your point? That's like 1% of my play history. I have over 3,000 normal wins and those win/loss stats don't add up to 3,000+, so clearly that site is missing data.

Recent matches is all that matters, Season 5 just started and the jungle didnt change till after this season started.

Tsugaga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=00000003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-28T10:32:28.333+0000)

Recent matches is all that matters, Season 5 just started and the jungle didnt change till after this season started.

I believe he said he wasn't talking about my recent matches, so.

Deserted Sand1 votes

Says the person that only plays Vi

Tsugaga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deserted Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=00000006,timestamp=2015-02-28T16:47:42.024+0000)

Says the person that only plays Vi

That's 100% irrelevant, OK? How many people are going to assume that the champs I feel like practicing and like have any relevance at all? I do NOT pay attention to meta, or win rates, or who's top tier, or who pro players use, I simply play champs that I think are cool and fun. I play 100% for my own enjoyment and love for League, nothing else. The fact the Vi is in a good spot right now and that I have only been playing her is 100% coincidence. I play champs to learn them, which is why I play the same champ for 250+ games in a row. I've done the same exact thing with all my other favorite champs. Understand? Leave my match history out of it, I'm still entitled to my own opinions.

cuddlykitten411 votes

Fiora outjungles all those fools

Auz the Ripper9 votes

I love the new jungle

Mostly because I main Mid

if I ban JarvanIV Vi andLeeSin, Then I never have to worry about being ganked successfully, it's great! Plus, sometimes the enemy jungle is so underleveled and low health I can just outright kill them! That's totally Fair! Especially for Me!

The Ecdysiast7 votes

I think the fact we now have to wait longer for a jungler than a support in normals should be a big clue as to how unfun they've made the jungle. This does a good job of explaining the problem. While there are only those ones you can use, even in normals no one wants to play jungle in normals because if they're stuck with those they might as well just say "fill" in ranked.

You did bring up a good point (well, your lack of stating it was a good point). That is, that it's not the ability to gank from their kit that the other junglers are missing. What they're being denied is the ability to clear the damned jungle to even have the EXP and HP to help ina timely manner. Every assassin has to recall after one side. Maybe even before the wolves/raptors. Some of the tanks, as well. They're overthinking all their balance changes. It's not that Evelynn, Elise, Kha'zix, Nocturne, Rengar, etc. need buffs for their ganks, they just need to be able to clear camps with enough health to not walk in and die when they're trying to help.

This could easily be accomplished by giving every weak jungler an extra passive to have more defense or healing from monsters. (maybe fix Machete/Smite, but that would also make the six viable ones stronger)

KaisadiIIa2 votes

they're being denied is the ability to clear the damned jungle to even have the EXP and HP to help ina timely manner.

And even those who can clear without losing too much HP (like Nautilus), are too prone to get counter-jungled by the god-tier junglers and die.

This could easily be accomplished by giving every weak jungler an extra passive to have more defense or healing from monsters. (

This could be accomplished by returning back to S4 jungle. S4 jungle was perfect: it allowed every single champion in the game to jungle, clear and gank without dying in the progress. Yeah, maybe FF was overwhelming, but FF was less overwhelming than Vi/Jarvan/Lee are now. S4 jungle just needed some minor tweaks, but instead, RIOT destroyed the jungle and created a new one for apparently no reason.

SeCKS Egai3 votes

I don't get why anyone would argue with the OP listed champs. Now mind you, I've basically stuck to resetting first win of the day in co-op for at least a month now, but EVEN in co-op it's clear how dramatically the jungle has changed.

Before the jungle changes, I remember watching folks in co-op typically only get into trouble running jungle because they lacked a decent rune page and/or were underlevel - but even on a smurf you could run particular junglers and manage thanks to their inherent sustain.

Now keep in mind, I'm talking just about co-op where there's no counter-jungle factor. Not only is the jungle dramatically rougher than season 4, you get all of 2 pots with your machete now. It be one thing if it was the s4 jungle losing two pots, but s5 jungle camps are notably harsher as is.

I think a lot of my interest waned when the new jungle took hold. I lost count of how many newer players I saw struggle with just basic camps before the changes. While it was nice to see less pressure from the jungle initially, it was pretty clear to me it wasn't going to be long till a few key junglers took center stage once again.

For example, lee is the only champ that comes to mind that has never been truly 'gutted' despite his popularity after all this time. I think a lot of us simply write that off as him getting a free pass because he can make some impressive looking plays for those major tourneys.

However, even ignoring pvp entirely it's pretty clear that very few can make it now. I mean, when you consider in a co-op all a jungler has to deal with is really the jungle without outside interference, it's too common for even a co-op jungler to fall behind. That alone should be pretty indicative that the new jungle has done more harm than good - God forbid he or she struggles to clear a few camps only to be invaded by enemy jungler in actual pvp.

I did find it odd how veigar somehow managed to rise to popularity enough to get some dramatic changes - while some of it was directly related to mid champ changes I'm pretty certain that the reduced pressure from jungle ganks finally allowed him to actually make it out of lane phase consistently well off.

In any case, for those of you willing to argue that wins can be had in jungle by other champs still, consider how consistent those wins are. I mean olaf can still be in winning games...

Zaccea2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rawr Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-27T01:14:13.688+0000)

TL:DR Fuck the jungle, probably going to quit it at this rate and go learn some lanes.

I see you're a proud owner of DJ Sona. You considering learning Mid?

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonlight Flower,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HaNP1Mci,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-27T06:09:30.470+0000)

I see you're a proud owner of DJ Sona. You considering learning Mid?

I got the skin just for the icon. I do play mid just not often, my champ pool isn't meta there.

LeeDark7 votes

You paid that much for an icon??

Alaric112 votes

I love the conpensation vinegar and morde got for the dfg removal. Riot sure does know how to tell the truth about their intentions to the community.

blueberrypancake7 votes

VINEGAR lol

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