Has there ever been a point where AD champs (specifically ADCs) weren't gods?

Niyumi·May 30, 2017·3 votes·628 views

Title. Ever since I started playing this game (started early S5), the hands down strongest champs in the game have always been, and still are, ADCs -- with other AD champs being the second strongest, then mages, then tanks.

Seems like every patch there's some AD item buff or a buff to ADCs that are already beyond broken, or nerfs to champs that can hardly compete, or a combination of all of those.

Has there ever been a point where the easiest, safest, most reliable champs in the game with the best sustain, the highest item diversity, a support dedicated to keeping them alive, and all that, weren't the strongest champs in the game by far? And don't you dare say anything about cinderhulk meta, since ADCs still shredded tanks as if they were made of wet paper.

I don't understand why least risk / effort / thought = greatest reward.

35 Comments

DreadlocksMay 30, 20174 votes

Yeah, literally the start of this season ADC was trash.

ParoeMay 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPdI9Ivs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-30T22:07:47.447+0000)

Yeah, literally the start of this season ADC was trash.

Lolno. They werent, it was just a meme because of how strong assassins were. Marksman are the strongest theyve ever been.

@thread Pre-crit marksman werent super strong but at no point in the games competitive history has marksman never been mandatory. Long story short, ADC mains cried about how they couldnt kill things as fast as 1000AP mages and that tanks wouldnt die very fast to them. In response to their crying, riot created crit. Crit turned out to be so toxic dodge was created as a direct counter, but crit proved to be the lesser of two evils and thus stayed.

DreadlocksMay 30, 20174 votes

ADCs were definitely trash at the start of the season, they needed to do a lot of small changes to masteries and item tweeks to help with it. Not to mention there were only 2 good ADCs for quite an extended period of time, Cait/Twitch.

ParoeMay 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPdI9Ivs,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T22:18:57.108+0000)

ADCs were definitely trash at the start of the season, they needed to do a lot of small changes to masteries and item tweeks to help with it. Not to mention there were only 2 good ADCs for quite an extended period of time, Cait/Twitch.

Thats simply not true o.O' If that were the case then marksman wouldnt have 99% pick rate across all ELOs "when theyre weak".

"ADCin2K17 lol" was a meme about how strong lethality made assassins, because with lethality assassins would pop squishies pretty reliably. It didnt mean "lol ADCs are weak XD". I understand why you would think that, but it isnt what the meme meant.

DreadlocksMay 30, 20175 votes

Oh wow you think because an ADC is picked in every game they are OP lol..

ParoeMay 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPdI9Ivs,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T22:26:29.989+0000)

Oh wow you think because an ADC is picked in every game they are OP lol..

Putting words in my mouth because you dont have a real argument? Good show! Im simply stating the fact that youre very wrong. ADC - marksman specifically - has always been strong. In fact, the meta revolves around who DEALS WITH THEM the best.

Any time where "marksman are weak" is a time where burst is stronger than their survivability. "ADCin2K17" is a perfect example of it - marksman were not weak by any means at the time, lethality and assassin buffs simply made immobile ADCs undesirable which led to a majority of the meta marksman being very safe. Safe marksman dont really make flashy plays and arent flashy themselves, giving them the illusion of "weakness".

So no, at no point post-crit have marksman ever been "weak". Even now, ~~your loved ones suffer~~ marksman itemization keeps getting better and better. You have marksman breaching 300AD with 1.5+ attack speed, at which point they become sustained burst rather than sustained damage because they DO the same damage as a burst mage.

DreadlocksMay 30, 20171 votes

If that were the case then marksman wouldnt have 99% pick rate across all ELOs "when theyre weak".

Uhhh?

Critmaster GarenMay 30, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPdI9Ivs,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T22:18:57.108+0000)

ADCs were definitely trash at the start of the season, they needed to do a lot of small changes to masteries and item tweeks to help with it. Not to mention there were only 2 good ADCs for quite an extended period of time, Cait/Twitch.

they were never trash. the meta was just around high pressure with 4 man gangbangs on bot lane which made it difficult for them to farm to their power spikes.

the bot lane that won still carried. the bot lane that lost got entiely destroyed for the rest of the game.

marksmen did not lack in strength. you put a high priority objective like 500 gold turret first blood into any lane, and the same would happen to those lanes.

woodvsmurphMay 30, 20171 votes

also makes it easy to dive and kill when the supports are full ap glass cannon instead of real supports

Brain Errör 404May 30, 20171 votes

No one mentioning the Jhin/Varus meta? Where they were literally the only 2 ADCs played bot for like 3/4months? Lol

DreadlocksMay 30, 20171 votes

3 or 4 months !!!>?< lol more like 1 month and Cait/Twitch were still viable as fk..

QuksliceMay 30, 20171 votes

Ummmm.

Assassians made ADC shit. It was unrewarding and unfun to play when you just got consistently four man dived for only your tower and dragon. It didn't even matter if you got fed as ADC because Zed or Wukong would literally fuck you into the next dimension, making you useless.

Personally, I think Crit is in a good spot. People just hate the RNG aspect of it. I do too. You can still counter it though. Randuin's omen and Frozen Heart basically make crit a useless stat if you buy them and since GA now gives armor, even other ADC's can sorta kinda be protected.

Dodge was removed because it was cancerous as fuck and probably 10x more cancerous than crit. Imagine being about to kill somone just for their 1% dodge to come in and save their ass. Plus, dodge affects every champ. Everyone autos. Dodge was literally a god stat.

(I never played with dodge so honestly I have no clue how it played. Don't take most of the bottom paragraph seriously unless I made some good points in which case please do take it seriously. It was based on speculation.)

Critmaster GarenMay 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Ummmm.

Assassians made ADC shit.

assassins were complete garbage directly after the update and got outbursted by marksmen like cait, graves, mf and lucian with their own items.

NiyumiMay 30, 20172 votes

When did they add crit? And if it was so horrible they had to make a stat just to counter it, why did it stay?

ParoeMay 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

When did they add crit? And if it was so horrible they had to make a stat just to counter it, why did it stay?

It was the lesser of two evils. The way they did dodge at the time was just even more toxic than crit was.

Crit was added because ADCs were crying about how they didnt do enough damage - and at the time it was true. Back then marksman got 250AD or so with 1.25 attack speed. Great for taking objectives, less good for being useful in fights. With crit, it was around 175~200AD with 1.25 attack speed, and 50% crit was what you normally got.

Over time, marksman itemization has evolved and changed to the point where they do sustained burst rather than sustained damage. They essentially went from winston (constant relatively low DPS but good at killing structures) to tracer (SUPER high burst damage that is easily sustained).

NiyumiMay 30, 20171 votes

At the start of this season, ADCs were gods. Just because they actually had counters for a while doesn't mean they were trash, it means they were fair for once.

EndlessSorcererMay 30, 20171 votes

The main issue was the heavy focus bottom lane due to first-blood tower and Dragon.

Games were often decided before ADCs had the chance to scale, so their contribution depended more on their team's performance than their own.

The ADC on the team who won bottom lane would be quite powerful. However, it was the top, jungle and mid-laners who determined which team won bottom lane.

AhristocatsMay 30, 20174 votes

season 6

Rylai Zhonya

NiyumiMay 30, 20172 votes

Except, almost all mages are skillshot-based, which means that Rylai's wasn't guaranteed. And thanks to lifesteal and absurdly high auto damage thanks to crit, ADCs could just stand and tank most mages even if they had a Rylai's and Zhonya's.

AhristocatsMay 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Except, almost all mages are skillshot-based, which means that Rylai's wasn't guaranteed.

Rylai was disgustly free win and rushed on every single mages in lcs, talyah cass even ryze and syndra in regular play it was built on ori veigar annie pretty much everyone

on top of bringing 40% permanent slow it was the most statstick item with over 105% gold efficiency

NiyumiMay 30, 20171 votes

Taliyah is easily avoided. Cass is easily avoided. Syndra is mostly easily avoided (that W hitbox). Ryze is easily avoided.

Just because the item was a bit overtuned doesn't mean it was a free win. Mages don't just one shot you like a lot of people want to say they do (unless they're stupidly fed), and most AD champs can just out-damage them since mages are built around burst damage rather than sustained (in most cases), whereas a good majority of AD champs have good sustained damage on top of burst and sustain.

And, as I recall, ROA has always been a very gold-efficient item, and even had its cost massively lowered while buffing its stats. Is it broken too?

AhristocatsMay 30, 20173 votes

Rylai was nerfed for a reason it was rushed in pro as a 2nd item on mages after morello everytime it was rushed on bruisers it was rushed on ap supports

it was busted

and riot saw it and nerfed it as they had the stats stop arguing now

NiyumiMay 30, 20171 votes

I mean, going by what the LC$ players spam, there's a ton of broken items and champs.

I never really had an issue with Rylai's, since I just dodged the skillshots and didn't get hit by the slow anyway. Should we nerf Liandry's and Luden's too? They're built on almost every AP champ. So is Morello.

KitSun9May 30, 20172 votes

Yes.. Morello should be nerfed a bit, but Rylais was a completely different story... It was an insane item with so many things going for it, the permaslow provided, being a big AP item, and providing tankiness. Honestly the item should have been what it is today a niche item used by people who actually want the slows provided by the passive, not an item that provided nearly everything if not everything a mage wanted and dodge the skill shots... ... ... Going by your examples... Cass E P/C, W Big AOE, Ult Big AOE; Ryze... It's Ryze P/C Master himself; Taliyah E Wide AOE; Syndra W hitbox. Cassiopeia -says hi

Best princess EUMay 30, 20172 votes

it doesn't matter what youcan avoid or not, most of the champions you listed were also hard to avoid

there are things that were imbalanced, just like dfg rilay was not balanced and this is comming from a mage main

ParoeMay 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPdI9Ivs,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-30T22:47:33.018+0000)

Rylai was disgustly free win and rushed on every single mages in lcs, talyah cass even ryze and syndra in regular play it was built on ori veigar annie pretty much everyone

on top of bringing 40% permanent slow it was the most statstick item with over 105% gold efficiency

Rylais was also a core item because after the nerfs to AP it was a high-AP item, one of three and it was a better buy than ludens. Rylais also got a buff out of nowhere that, in conjuction with its new status as a high-AP item, made it broken.

Pre-buff rylais was a lot better balanced than post-buff.

ForgiveColourMay 30, 20172 votes

"Nerfs to ap"

Stopped reading right there

ParoeMay 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"Nerfs to ap"

Stopped reading right there

Yes, because removing 20AP from all 100AP items (about four), removing 20AP from ludens, and removing 50AP from zhonyas (making it a nearly 200AP net loss) isnt a nerf.

You can get about as much AP as you can AD if you dont buy item 3089 .

ForgiveColourMay 31, 20171 votes

You health, cdr, mana, utility in return. :thinking; what a hard nerf! Its funny how back then mages have like 800+ ap but now they can still do the same thing with 500 ap and you guys are still pretending that high ap value matters that much

ForgiveColourMay 30, 20171 votes

SkI1LsH0t bAsEdd

LUL

Blade of JusticMay 30, 20171 votes

I want to say it was the Season 3 or Season 4 tank meta where everyone wanted like 2 or 3 tanks on their team and the ADCs were good for long range support in a fight, but they wouldn't blow anybody up unless they were really far ahead.

BreakuMay 30, 20171 votes

I actually don't remember a time when ADCs where overpowered?

woodvsmurphMay 30, 20171 votes

There have been a few patches here and there were other roles and/or champs were stronger, but they are few and far between. Adc's just whine the loudest and most frequently, so they tend to get the most "help". I mean part of it is the level of peeling and the range they have. Naturally if you can whittle away someone else's hp before they can fight back, you are going to have an advantage. Add in peeling via cc and it makes it much easier. Sure you could peel for a fighter or a mage and buff them just as much as you do for an adc, but the former needs to be in melee range and is more susceptible to cc and the latter tends to be able to burst one enemy and then offer only moderate damage until their ult is back up - some exceptions apply obviously. So much of an adc's strength comes from their team's peeling and cc as well as their team's ability to threaten diving the enemy backline. That said, I do think adc's are strong enough mid game that they don't need to further outscale in comparison to how much other champs and roles scale up from mid game. Their strength compared to other roles in mid game (for MOST adc's) is about where it realistically should be in the late game. Otherwise, the battle revolves almost entirely around:

who can delete the enemy adc faster or
who has the better adc - regardless of if the other team has 3 or 4 better players in the other roles

ForgiveColourMay 30, 20171 votes

But s5 is when adc role start to become shit??? Hello???

Edge of DaybreakMay 31, 20171 votes

There are quite a few ad mids that are outright worse than many mages in that lane. It's actually been that way for a few seasons and only twice since pre season 3 has an ad champion actually been the best mid that I recall. It was also the same champion both times.