I wish Riot would work on Sona

Heckin Support··62 votes·3,976 views

Her old problems stayed the same. She's a poke mage who just spams Q and throws in a w every now and then. Sona is my #1 favorite support and champion in League. I just feel like her potential is there but it's not reached. She is a bard who should shine in teamfights, buffing her allies with her music, and weakening foes. Right now she's just a spam q bot in lane and toss in an ult.

It might just be me, but I feel like her kit and how she plays doesn't match up with what a bard should be bringing to a game. When I have asked of this before Riot said they don't want to touch her since she's a staple support whose easy to pick up and learn. It makes me sad to know Sona's potential will never be reached.

96 Comments

Rivini13 votes

Just to point out, Sona is not a bard. She does not sing. She's purely a musician.

Foucz9 votes

is Bard a Bard ?

IronicGentleman3 votes

Bard is not a Bard, he is a Bard.

TheFancySkeleton1 votes

Actually Bard is not Bard or Bard , but he is infact a Bard

Melledoneus1 votes

To quote from Bard as to what he actually is...

Bard "BWOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOH!"

Cremepie8 votes

They need to redo her auras. I would love if Q did half the damage it does but also applys X debuff to enemy and X buff to allies. W I like but the shield is meh and the heal is meh. E would be be amazing if it added a slow bonus, for the next auto to the closest ally. Her ult is the only thing that doesn't need a change.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

They need to redo her auras. I would love if Q did half the damage it does but also applys X debuff to enemy and X buff to allies. W I like but the shield is meh and the heal is meh. E would be be amazing if it added a slow bonus, for the next auto to the closest ally. Her ult is the only thing that doesn't need a change.

Honestly, I would rather have the debuff applied to her Q powerchord, instead of the massive damage that it does now. Her powerchords and Auto's give a large amount of burst. Similar with her E, her E powerchord already has a slow, But I feel like it should be more pronounced. As it's the only CC in her kit, outside of her ult.

Her W is actually the most interesting I think. The heals and shields alone seem meh, but give a lot of leverage when used together.

Penguin Eclipse7 votes

Yes, she does need work.

Her Q and W have a horrendous amount of her power budget allocated to them. Their simplicity makes them feel unrewarding and limits their potential. Her heal wastes a huge amount of power every time it is pressed because of how it splits her heal between 2 champions. If both abilities were scrapped she could get an infinitely more useful Q maybe even with CC. Her W could be redone to increase the amount of single-target healing it does. Heck she could even have some more power assigned to her E to make it feel more rewarding or rework it as an ability that directly affects enemies while buffing allies. She could get a cleaner passive. Or a completely different passive with parts of the existing passive being worked into her actual abilities. The potential is there and it is limitless. Her current kit does not allow for much potential.

But she will never reach her full potential as long as she has a player base hell bent on keeping her the same or reverting her. This thread will be trashed in a matter of hours with people touting lies on both sides of the argument and downvoting all who disagree or want to actually fix Sona.

Nagoh Shan2 votes

It's not reaching her full potential when you completely change what she is.

It's giving someone else her name and having them reach their full potential and saying "Yay Sona did it!"

You're post just said to change Sona into an early CC, debuff, ST healing champ. About as far from what Sona is, as is possible to be.

Penguin Eclipse4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HNLlPGVr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-09T01:01:25.906+0000)

It's not reaching her full potential when you completely change what she is.

It's giving someone else her name and having them reach their full potential and saying "Yay Sona did it!"

You're post just said to change Sona into an early CC, debuff, ST healing champ. About as far from what Sona is, as is possible to be.

What she is now has no potential. She will not be buffed. Her changes will not be reverted. The only changes she will receive going forward other than an occasional number adjustment will have to be significant because her champion design is very poor even if no one wants to admit it. She cannot be fixed without being changed. More complex champions will continue to outclass her and continue to push her further an further into irrelevance until she is eventually reworked.

Canidae2 votes

One does not simply make the walking locket, point-and-click lady of destruction irrelevant.

Nagoh Shan7 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0QFWhE2d-been-a-while-since-weve-had-a-real-sona-discussion

I agree that Sona could use some love, but I'd rather they revert the rework.

She really shouldn't have been reworked in the first place IMO.

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HNLlPGVr,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:11:33.856+0000)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0QFWhE2d-been-a-while-since-weve-had-a-real-sona-discussion

I agree that Sona could use some love, but I'd rather they revert the rework.

She really shouldn't have been reworked in the first place IMO.

That sounds like the exact opposite of what the OP wants. You want unimpactful auras and an ult bot? Then you want old Sona.

Nagoh Shan5 votes

I do want old Sona.

I just disagree with your opinion on the impact of her auras, or the contention she was an ult bot.

I think if you played Sona as an ult bot you were pretty terrible with her and probably should have stuck with playing Jana and flinging tornadoes.

Quepha6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HNLlPGVr,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-09T00:47:09.937+0000)

I do want old Sona.

I just disagree with your opinion on the impact of her auras, or the contention she was an ult bot.

I think if you played Sona as an ult bot you were pretty terrible with her and probably should have stuck with playing Jana and flinging tornadoes.

Oh yeah that flat AP/AD was so interactive and interesting. I loved how the radius of your aura was so huge that you literally just sat at the back of a team fight to get the full effect of the rest of your kit while waiting for R to come off cooldown so you could risk getting in range of someone again.

Nagoh Shan8 votes

What?

With the old Sona the point wasn't to play around your Ult, it was to play around your powerchord.

Enemy carry too far forward? Diminuendo

Chasing? Tempo

One of those opportunities not available? Staccato

Same people always go QWE QWE QWE QWE QWE and OOM wondering why they don't do as much damage as the Sonas they play against.

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/ab13b03e12eb0e4cba0741ef3f717a34.jpg

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HNLlPGVr,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-09T01:09:58.907+0000)

What?

With the old Sona the point wasn't to play around your Ult, it was to play around your powerchord.

Enemy carry too far forward? Diminuendo

Chasing? Tempo

One of those opportunities not available? Staccato

If the rework nerfed any of the utility of her power chords you would have a point, but the only thing they nerfed was the damage on Q power chord to make up for the damage she would get from the aura. W and E powerchords have EXACTLY the same amount of utility on them and are just as important to her playstyle.

Reworked Sona has exactly as impactful powerchords, exactly as impactful ults, and her auras are more visibly impactful.

Tribbles Foxfolk7 votes

{quoted}

Her old problems stayed the same. She's a poke mage who just spams Q and throws in a w every now and then. Sona is my #1 favorite support and champion in League. I just feel like her potential is there but it's not reached. She is a bard who should shine in teamfights, buffing her allies with her music, and weakening foes. Right now she's just a spam q bot in lane and toss in an ult.

It might just be me, but I feel like her kit and how she plays doesn't match up with what a bard should be bringing to a game. When I have asked of this before Riot said they don't want to touch her since she's a staple support whose easy to pick up and learn. It makes me sad to know Sona's potential will never be reached.

I would prefer that they DON'T touch Sona until they "grow up" a bit and stop over-doing each new champion, attempting to trump themselves in how ridiculous they can make a champion. Poppy is annoying and has a broken hitbox on her E. Tahm Kench is just stupid and was doomed as "impossible to balance properly" the moment you saw his W. Fiora's rework is kind of a miss (passive max%HP true damage? really?) and needed more thought. Cassiopeia is panned by the community as one of the worst reworks in League.

Do you see my point? Riot kinda needs to take a breather from reworks and champion releases to reconsider their balance ideals before touching "iffy" champions like Sona again. I'd like her rework to be done correctly and with respect to the character. (Keep her ult, PLEASE. It's easily her best spell.)

Silents4291 votes

Pretty nitpicky I'd say.

Hitbox can be fixed.

Tahm Kench isn't that bad, needed toning down, kit easily allows this without breaking him viably.

Fiora rework is and was a success but now requires number change balance.

Cass had no consistent direction from anyone and was abandoned, and easily deserves to be brought up as the worst. But this was almost 2 years ago now, they have a completely new rework/balance design now.

I don't think people really know what reworks are suppose to do, and they call them failures anytime a reworked champion falls out of favor or becomes "OP" after a new build is discovered.

Voluug131 votes

(Dis?) honorable mentions to worst reworks are also Morde and Karma. Specially Karma that basically deleted and replaced the champion's entire unique and actually fun playstyle for a Lulu/Lux clone.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

(Dis?) honorable mentions to worst reworks are also Morde and Karma. Specially Karma that basically deleted and replaced the champion's entire unique and actually fun playstyle for a Lulu/Lux clone.

Other than being a mage and having a shield, karma has very little in common with lux.

Baron of Bread1 votes

The same is pretty much true for Lulu and Karma.

Silents4291 votes

She is nothing like either of those 2 champions.

Morde didn't get a rework, he got a gameplay update, he needs a rework because his kit is flawed at it's core.

Voluug131 votes

His kit was ''flawed'' only because Riot said so. And we all knew how ''right'' was Riot in the end in that matter. Truth is Morde was basically an anti assassin and Riot hates those. Morde had his place and identity, along with weaknesses just like any other champion.

Also players cant adapt or understand to play against the kind of champions that counter mobility, agression, diving or lane hyper interaction, and so ask for nerfs because ''muh no counterpick''. Zilean Veigar Mordekaiser Karma Swain were already hit, and Malzahar Taric are next on the chopping block.

''Why I cant kill that Zilean with Zed/Fizz/Yasuo/Katarina? How dare??? RITO NERF NO COUNTERPLAY!!!''

And changes of that scale are a rework. Reworks are not relaunchs like Sion.

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

{quoted}

His kit was ''flawed'' only because Riot said so. And we all knew how ''right'' was Riot in the end in that matter. Truth is Morde was basically an anti assassin and Riot hates those. Morde had his place and identity, along with weaknesses just like any other champion.

Also players cant adapt or understand to play against the kind of champions that counter mobility, agression, diving or lane hyper interaction, and so ask for nerfs because ''muh no counterpick''. Zilean Veigar Mordekaiser Karma Swain were already hit, and Malzahar Taric are next on the chopping block.

''Why I cant kill that Zilean with Zed/Fizz/Yasuo/Katarina? How dare??? RITO NERF NO COUNTERPLAY!!!''

And changes of that scale are a rework. Reworks are not relaunchs like Sion.

Morde was a melee champion with absolutely no mobility and absolutely no CC. Other than being a pain in the ass to all in, he was not a good anti-assassin and only won because he could out farm and out trade in part due to being manaless. He was easily countered by roaming, something he couldn't effectively do. He wasn't a good mage. He wasn't a good tank. The guy couldn't jungle. He could barely mid thanks to his difficulty with long range. And most bruisers pooped on him top. He was the very definition of flawed. And he still is except even worse now.

Voluug131 votes

Riot just released Illaoi so clearly the ''no cc no mobility'' is NOT a flaw. Illaoi is basically AD Morde but tankier where Morde had shield.

He wasn't a good mage

He was never a mage? AP =/= mage.

The guy couldn't jungle.

Velkoz cant really jungle either. Flawed kit?

He could barely mid thanks to his difficulty with long range.

Back in S2 maybe. But in Zed Yasuo Fizz mid meta, Morde was a pretty good counterpick as long as your jungler had some kind of presence and you could ward correctly.

And most bruisers pooped on him top.

Probably because on toplane he was too a counterpick. Rarer but equally viable as a counterpick. he still could buy anti tank and shit on most bruisers. He was awesome against toplane tanks without enough damage and/or waveclear. He kept them on their lane or they losed tower the moment they tried to tp gank.

Why cant Riot and some people accept some champions will never have a high playrate?

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

Riot just released Illaoi so clearly the ''no cc no mobility'' is NOT a flaw. Illaoi is basically AD Morde but tankier where Morde had shield.

I'm sorry I didn't realize Illaoi had no CC or mobility. Oh wait she has both. Literally every single champion in the game had at least one form of CC or one form of mobility at the time of his rework except him.

He was never a mage? AP =/= mage.

Oh?

Velkoz cant really jungle either. Flawed kit?

Grasping at straws?

Back in S2 maybe. But in Zed Yasuo Fizz mid meta, Morde was a pretty good counterpick as long as your jungler had some kind of presence and you could ward correctly.

Oh really? I must have missed him in Season 3/4 with that whopping pickrate of 1-5% that pretty much never moved despite the fact that he supposed "countered" all the top picks. His winrate was also consistently below average. He was a joke in high elo and professional play.

Silents4291 votes

Oh, you are going to argue Morde was a problem because Riot doesn't like Anti Assassins.

..k

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

(Dis?) honorable mentions to worst reworks are also Morde and Karma. Specially Karma that basically deleted and replaced the champion's entire unique and actually fun playstyle for a Lulu/Lux clone.

Old Karma was an Annie with even less counterplay.

Voluug131 votes
  • Mana Hungry and mana regain mechanic.

  • No hard CC

  • No extreme burst, focused more in a mix of defense and offense

  • No mobility and bad mana management until Athene's so she was vulnerable to poke and sustain.

Singing Lark1 votes

Honestly Poppy is probably one of the best reworks with Riot's recent reworks. She has a simple kit, is strong and offers high utility. I don't dislike playing with her, as her, or against her. Yeah she's a lane bully and such, but a fed Poppy will rarely be able to solo carry a game like a fed Fiora or Tahm Kench might be able to. She's still team reliant because she simply lacks the burst damage.

I will agree the Riot has been adding more and more gimmicks and re-work Sona might end up overloaded and broken if reworked now.

iamthegoatofwar4 votes

I miss the old sona tbh.

dunkeroni4 votes

Sona's potential is reachable with her current kit. You have to master her exact spell and basic attack ranges for her pokes, know her precise cooldowns and be able to cycle your passive efficiently and effectively onto enemy champions. And always, ALWAYS get lichbane even if your ADC complains.

ThePompf1 votes

Eh, im currently trying out item 3025 on her. Its way better than lichbane on support sona in my opinion.

-Sona main.

Simato1 votes

IBG was better on her when it still gave AP :p

Simato1 votes

Doublepost featured by phone on train

Supreme Senpai693 votes

Not to be rude, but i think it might just be you. I played her two weeks ago when she was free rotation and just fell in love. Being able to E and help your entire team escape from death or chase that kill or even push a lane asap. Being able to heal and shield allies during a fight just enough to tip the scales in our favor. Being able to poke enemy champions. Having a stun that ensures a kill as soon as an enemy misteps, or ensuring your ally gets away to safety.

Level one and two, yea, you just spam Q.

Otherwise, there's so much more to this champion.

TxAlly1 votes

I couldn't agree more! I main Sona... She is so fun to play! I've only played the reworked version, so I have no comparison. I realize that all champs have room for improvement, but I'm not really sure what I'd prefer to see done to make her better??? She is fun as is, IMO. And, has a ton of potential to carry a game when played well!

shalexade2 votes

The problem with Aura's is that they need to be balanced around best case scenario- ie, all members benefiting from it.

This makes it particularly underwhelming not being used in it's best case.

ie- assume right now that Sona, and her "weak auras" hit her entire team.

Q- 5* 60 bonus damage on auto's- best case, that's a 300 (+100AP) hit right there Stronger than most non-ult nukes around.

W- 5* 115 shield. 575 (+100%AP) shield. Only shields in the game that are stronger than that are Shen's ult and Tahm's situational E.

On numbers, you're seeing that the auras' alone, despite being up their with the strongest in the game, feel unrewarding to the Sona player. Which is the problem with auras.

For them to feel rewarding- they need to be overpowered.

Nagoh Shan3 votes

They really don't.

It's just that her old aura's had a directly quantifiable gold value, and the new ones have a roundabout gold value. The direct gold value scared riot, so they continued to nerf her. Then they changed the way the effects worked to make them feel better with less base effect and more scaling effect. While removing the gold value that terrified them for reasons that escape both understanding and consistency.

The new effects were poorly thought out and allowed her to do things with the scaling she had, that wasn't appropriate, so the scaling continued to get nerfed.

Old Sona was a victim of flawed design theory not balance practices. New Sona is a victim of poor design balance.

shalexade1 votes

Her Q and W used to give to the team 100AD, 100AP, 100A and 100MR, but over time was nerfed down to 50A and 50MR as people worked out how strong it was.

Very strong passive abilities that to most, felt underwhelming.

It's half a baron buff + defensive stats as a passive. And it went unnoticed by most.

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Maybe it was the type of characters I played in MMOs and RPGs, but Sona never felt underwhelming, and she never felt overbearing. I just never could understand people saying she didn't feel like she did anything. Until the last aura cut that is.

And while that all looks terrifying, it was this

item 1052 item 1036 item 1036 item 1029 item 1033

That's a lot of passive power, but there's trade offs to get that. She didn't have a pillar, tornado, bubble, shield, or ability to make someone a squirrel. Not to mention, you were never giving your team all of that in the earlier seasons because you just couldn't maintain all the auras on support itemization. Then, even when they were juggle-able due to itemization changes, you didn't get the CDR and mana management needed to juggle them until later in the match.

Early to mid game it was 2-3 people getting 1 aura worth of gold with another intermittently as you readied a power chord. While it was strong, it was not out of line with what you see from more control oriented supports.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Aura's is that they need to be balanced around best case scenario- ie, all members benefiting from it.

This makes it particularly underwhelming not being used in it's best case.

ie- assume right now that Sona, and her "weak auras" hit her entire team.

Q- 5* 60 bonus damage on auto's- best case, that's a 300 (+100AP) hit right there Stronger than most non-ult nukes around.

W- 5* 115 shield. 575 (+100%AP) shield. Only shields in the game that are stronger than that are Shen's ult and Tahm's situational E.

On numbers, you're seeing that the auras' alone, despite being up their with the strongest in the game, feel unrewarding to the Sona player. Which is the problem with auras.

For them to feel rewarding- they need to be overpowered.

The bonus damage on her Q has 2 big issues currently, first is that it doesn't apply to spells. This makes it bad for champions who are focused more around doing damage with a big burst combo. Second it doesn't work against structures making it very bad for siege-ing.

I think a lot of people would love her auras to work in such a way that they are "good" with 2 people, and Great with 5. BUT are kind of so-so with 3-4 champions. Puts her in a place where lane phase isn't about being hyper aggressive because your sustain/utility is piss poor.

shalexade1 votes

That's an idea that I like- Aura's that have a different effect as they apply to more people.

So that it can be balanced around a 2-3 man effect, without the 5 man effect being abused.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

Q should be stronger in best-case scenario simply because it's harder to achieve; same reason as skillshot should deal more damage than a targeted ability. Not everyone is going to auto attack; that squishy, long-ranged AP mage ain't risking their ass for a measly 60 bonus damage.

To better understand how weak her auras are, let's compare them to similar abilities.

Q: Since there aren't any other direct AoE AA empowers, let's check out an ability that is the opposite: Tryndamere's Mocking Shout. It removes 80 AD from each person on enemy team - and has much bigger AoE, therefore making the best case scenario easier to achieve. If every person on enemy team AA's once, that's 400 damage lost right there. Of course, as I said, not everyone is going to attack - but, unlike Sona, Trynd isn't limited to a single AA. It is likely that just an ADC will fire 4+ shots in those 4 seconds - making for a 320+ damage loss on a single person. If it affects an enemy AD jungle/top it has outdone Sona's best case scenario by a large margin. ...oh and it also comes with a big-ass, non-decaying slow. Completely fair and balanced ability. /s

W: You can't compare an AoE shield's total value to a single target shield. To make it more fair, compare it to another AoE shield - Karma's. It shields for a total of 1200 + 300% AP (double the base and 3 times the scaling), while being ranged, having better AoE and a non-decaying 60% MS boost - so it is not only a better Sona's W, but also a far superior Sona's E at the same time.

E: 1% MS per rank. Enough said.

I honestly don't see why should Sona feel like shit outside of a best case scenario when people mentioned above and much more get to feel useful regardless if they hit 1 person or 5 persons. Maybe it is a combination of auras and unavoidable poke - but then again, Riot obviously has no problems with LB nuking you from a screen away and blinking back before you can retaliate.

shalexade1 votes

Q: You seem to forget that Q also deals 400 damage + (100%AP).

So in the best case scenario, it's a 700 + (200%AP) ability. On an 8 second cooldown.

Tronks W is very strong in the best case scenario- which scales off the strength of the enemy it effects.

W: So to make a fair comparison- we compare it to an ULT?

That's like saying that Ziggs Q is terrible for poking cause his R is way stronger.

You don't see why she should feel shit outside of the best case scenario, because you don't play at a level where that would be abused. (Don't worry- neither do I).

The main problem is- as I tried to state originally. People don't feel satisfaction from playing with Auras. You could double those aura effects, boost her winrate over 60% and people would still complain that the aura's feel useless.

Remlap12232 votes

I have a rework idea that would grant her permanent auras while keeping her from being a Q bot, but also not make her a faceroll champ either.

But unfortunately I have a group of brigadiers that will bury any thread I make. Hell, even if I made a smurf to upvote that thread, two more people will downvote it. So you guys are unfortunately SOL.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I have a rework idea that would grant her permanent auras while keeping her from being a Q bot, but also not make her a faceroll champ either.

But unfortunately I have a group of brigadiers that will bury any thread I make. Hell, even if I made a smurf to upvote that thread, two more people will downvote it. So you guys are unfortunately SOL.

Perma auras wont work, you run into either the old issue where you could play Sona as this buff bot from super far away and thus never be in danger. OR you have this character made of glass having to spend the entire fight up in the front lines so her team gets the buffs.

Nagoh Shan2 votes

Her range wasn't the issue.

Her auras were fine, it was the fact that they provided stats that had direct gold values that was the issue for Riot. The gold value looked scary when you didn't compare it to the relative value of other effects like CC or Pseudo-stats so she lost power until her auras were unnoticeable. That's when they decided to make her auras condensed. Smaller area and smaller, more bursty effects which eventually outscale.

Her old auras were at 1 point twice as strong at early levels. Instead of getting 4 AP/AD or 3 AR/MR or 4 MS, you'd get 8, 7, or 8 respectively. So while other supports either had similar pseudo gold values or the ability to hard CC, Sona gave the AD of a Dblade or almost as much defense as the seals and glyphs of a rune page.

And with 3 of her 4 abilities being buffs, people are going to call her a buff bot no matter what, but that's not unique to league. Supportive characters in every genre get called buff bots, but if people like that type of character that's fine. People who don't like that type of play can run something else.

Penta Penguin2 votes

"She is a bard who should shine in teamfights, buffing her allies with her music, and weakening foes."

Q is your damage spell, gives damage to allies, Power Chord amplifies your damage further. W Heals and shields, Power Chord reduces enemy damage like an exhaust. E speeds up allies, Power Chord slows down an enemy.

Bad Sonas tend to think all you're supposed to be doing is Q Power Chording people. In reality this champion is doing all the things you think she's not. You need to W Power Chord the Yasuo or Zed, you need to E Power Chord to peel or catch someone, etc.

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