Is there any reason why Cassiopeia has more base armor than most melee champions?

FalconPawwwwnch·Jun 4, 2015·26 votes·3,399 views

At level 18 she has 90 armor. Just to put that into perspective here's some melee champs' armor at level 18

Olaf has 77 Trundle has 73 Jax has 78 Master Yi has 75 Kassadin has 77

And don't say "but some of those champions have giant armor steroids" yea, and Cassiopeia is ranged. Giving Jax/Olaf 500 range and removing their defensive steroids would be a MASSIVE buff to them. If you're telling me that a hero with ranged waveclear and poke and a better laning phase than all the champions I listed also deserves way higher base armor then you're kidding yourselves

59 Comments

JustMyBassCannonJun 4, 201520 votes

"Cass has about a Cloth Armor worth of Armor over champions who have other, much stronger defensive tools!"

...And?

The only defense Cass can get is from items, really. Olaf has passive resist bonuses and innate Lifesteal. Trundle can steal health and resistances from a target. Jax has an Armor/MR steroid, plus 2 seconds of 100% attack resistance. Yi has untargetability and Meditate. Kassadin has a 2-second Flash and innate magic resistance instead of physical resistance.

redniwediSJun 4, 20158 votes

You've already said it, however you're using it in the wrong context.

but some of those champions have giant armor steroids

Riot does this to keep certain champions in check. It's the same thing with giving champions with attack speed steroids some of the lowest base attack speeds in the game.

The key here is that Riot is doing this. This isn't about explaining what would or should, it's about explaining what is. On paper Cass probably shouldn't have such high defenses, but she does because Riot thinks she should. Unless we get to see all the info that Riot sees when deciding these things whether or not it should be like this is just a matter of debate.

Again I'm not trying to sell this idea to you, this is just how Riot thinks.

FalconPawwwwnchJun 4, 20157 votes

I already gave an argument for this

Removing Jax and Olaf's armor steroid completely and giving them 500 range would be an enormous buff to them

So the fact that Cass gets range and higher armor makes no sense

redniwediSJun 4, 20153 votes

And? I'm not providing an argument myself, I'm just stating that Riot's policy on this completely disagrees with you, and that's why things are the way they are. Your argument looks like it's aimed at other players, when the topic you're talking about is fully about Riot.

You're basically saying that Riot is lying to themselves over how to properly balance champions, which I find a little absurd. Not necessarily incorrect, but absurd.

Sona PingJun 4, 20158 votes

But they _DO _ have armor steroids and they don't have 500 range, and this is what they are balanced around.

Cassiopeia is a DPS mage who loses the ability to DPS if she mistimes a spell or misses a skillshot so it's not surprising she gets <1 point of armor more per level than other champions for a slight bit of protection for when she's rendered temporarily useless. She further still has the same relatively low level of base armor for champions like her anyway. Soraka has higher base armor and her armor per level is only .2 less than Cassiopeia.

On the other hand Jax and Olaf are champions with consistent high damage potential, armor steroids, and can become quite oppressive if ahead.

Especially Olaf. Olaf's base numbers are deliberately kept a bit weaker than average because his kit is broken in parts. Because if he gets ahead, he has the ability to steamroll through the entire enemy team and chop chop the enemy carries all while lifestealing back the damage he takes, a capability which gets stronger the more enemies try to bring him down.

So there is plenty of sensible reasons why Cassiopeia's armor per level is where it is at.

FalconPawwwwnchJun 4, 20155 votes

that doesn't take away the point that giving them 500 range and taking away their armor steroids would be a giant buff to them.

You can't balance one set of champions around a lower standard and then call them fine when comparing them to another champ that is balanced around a higher standard. Saying Olaf and Jax are fine because they are balanced around less overall power than Cass makes no sense. Jax with 500 range and no armor steroid would be way better than what he is right now because he'd be able to actually lane and teamfight way better due to range

Sona PingJun 4, 20157 votes

{quoted}

that doesn't take away the point that giving them 500 range and taking away their armor steroids would be a giant buff to them.

And Jax would be stronger if Leap Striking with Ult active summoned a storm of crows for AoE damage. "Different champions are different" is not a worthwhile point. You can't compare them; you changed too many variables.

Cassiopeia has significant weaknesses that Olaf and Jax don't have in the first place, so to make her not be quite so vulnerable... she has 0.25 more armor per level than Teemo and Lulu Teemo Lulu

Mandang0Jun 5, 20151 votes

I think their point is that one base stat doesn't make a kit.

Ranged champions aren't just melee champions with better range, their kits are designed around them being ranged.

All that said, I might still agree that Cass's armor is too high, but this attempt to play melee champs off as martyrs is a joke.

FalconPawwwwnchJun 5, 20151 votes

What melee champs do you see in competitive that aren't full tank now?

Unless you're a stupid mobile assassin you're dead as a melee dps

Battlecast SonaJun 5, 20151 votes

So... basically what you're saying is that melee characters in the jungle are full tank (fair) but then you're excluding an entire class of melee characters that are perfectly viable?

So... melee characters can't really roll as DPS right now, but characters like Rek'Sai that can contribute fair amounts of DPS while still building tanky don't appeal to you? Like... What?

I don't really understand your argument. It seems to be that a specific class of characters that could previously focus on DPS can't do that... And the root of the problem is that Cass's base armor is too high? I think we've stumbled upon a "rito fix tank meta naow" post in disguise!

FalconPawwwwnchJun 5, 20152 votes

Any melee champion that can't build full tank and be viable is pretty bad right now, unless you're an assassin

What bruiser is viable in competitive play right now? Hecarim and Irelia? that leaves out like 30+ more lol

Edit: You know who's shit in competitive right now? Olaf and Jax. You know who isn't? Cassiopeia. You know what would help Jax a ton be competitive? Giving him more armor at level 18

Battlecast SonaJun 5, 20151 votes

Excluding assassins is stupid. I never said bruisers are viable.

I think you're just mad.

FalconPawwwwnchJun 5, 20152 votes

Then you're doing exactly what you said I was doing.

You can't exclude like 90% of bruisers and say hey look, melee are fine.

Yea, tanks and assassins are fine.

Bruisers are useless atm unless you can be useful going full tank like Gnar or have enough tools to lane like Irelia

Battlecast SonaJun 5, 20152 votes

Additionally...

Irelia Rumble Gnar Hecarim

Battlecast SonaJun 5, 20152 votes

Your argument is nonsensical.

Those characters would in no way be balanced with 500 range, because they're not designed to be that way. Cass is. As a non-mobile mage in mid-lane with a kinda decent but consistently nerfed early laning phase, Cassi REQUIRES the armor, especially as a role that is probably making 1 defensive item maximum. Cassi has a lot of problems already laning against melee AD champs (Zed and Talon come to mind...) that she can make up for slightly by outplaying, but the base armor definitely helps her not feel completely gimped against AD matchups.

By the way, who cares about level 18 base armor? By level 18 it doesn't matter anyway thanks to Black Cleaver/Last Whisper.

Only Play DariusJun 4, 20156 votes

Every single one of those champs have defense steroids as %dmg reduction, shielding, free resistances, or sustain.

FalconPawwwwnchJun 4, 20155 votes

Oh yea I forgot cass doesn't have health sustain

Or mana sustain

Or range

Only Play DariusJun 4, 20158 votes

Do you play her? If you ever played her you would know that the base armor isn't shit. She still has no escapes and very unreliable CC, she steps a foot over the median in midlane and she's dead if the jungler shows up.

khorneyJun 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HL9wp3nQ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-06-04T18:24:41.980+0000)

Do you play her? If you ever played her you would know that the base armor isn't shit. She still has no escapes and very unreliable CC, she steps a foot over the median in midlane and she's dead if the jungler shows up.

she is weak as hell now but she has her movement speed off her q which is good

Only Play DariusJun 4, 20151 votes

lmao the Q that has a cast time (stops movement), is very difficult to land, all for 20% movespeed. Yea, she's going to use that when escaping for sure.

khorneyJun 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HL9wp3nQ,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-04T22:16:42.611+0000)

lmao the Q that has a cast time (stops movement), is very difficult to land, all for 20% movespeed. Yea, she's going to use that when escaping for sure.

lol i never said it was a thing but she has really no escape pre 6 but htats why i liek to use exhaust or ghost and flash

flibitydooJun 4, 20156 votes

dang these are some pretty valid points

better start building sunfire cape/righteous glory on Cassiopeia because she is quite clearly the superior frontline champion than any of these melee champions.

ProfDrDeathJun 4, 20153 votes

Olaf has fairly high level 1 armor (26) and his passive armor steroid. This set-up exists to pronounce the trade-off in his ult: As he loses the passive resistance bonus, he becomes more squishy during Ragnarok's effect. However, at that point, straight-up killing him is the next-to only option you have to deal with him - he ignores all CC except artificial terrain, runs at you with a significant MS boost (possibly even Ghost and Glory) and chops you down with the 2880 gold of bonus AD he gets.

Cassiopeia retains her base Armor for two possible reasons:

They never thought about nerfing her in that regard.
She's a rather close-ranged mage, and thus has to get near the thick of things to get the job done. However, it is rather difficult for her to itemize armor, as Zhonya's is a rather poor item for her - she's a DPS mage and can't really afford to spend 2.5 seconds in stasis in a fight (in this season of OGN, it stands 7-4 for Cassiopeias not having Zhonya's at game's end vs having it).

However, you're right in that regard: Does Cass really need THAT high an Armor growth factor?

khorneyJun 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Olaf has fairly high level 1 armor (26) and his passive armor steroid. This set-up exists to pronounce the trade-off in his ult: As he loses the passive resistance bonus, he becomes more squishy during Ragnarok's effect. However, at that point, straight-up killing him is the next-to only option you have to deal with him - he ignores all CC except artificial terrain, runs at you with a significant MS boost (possibly even Ghost and Glory) and chops you down with the 2880 gold of bonus AD he gets.

Cassiopeia retains her base Armor for two possible reasons:

They never thought about nerfing her in that regard.

She's a rather close-ranged mage, and thus has to get near the thick of things to get the job done. However, it is rather difficult for her to itemize armor, as Zhonya's is a rather poor item for her - she's a DPS mage and can't really afford to spend 2.5 seconds in stasis in a fight (in this season of OGN, it stands 7-4 for Cassiopeias not having Zhonya's at game's end vs having it).

However, you're right in that regard: Does Cass really need THAT high an Armor growth factor?

they already nerfed cass to high heaven maybe this makes up for her lack of damage

ProfDrDeathJun 4, 20152 votes

Did you just use "Cassiopeia" and "lack of damage" in the same sentence?

khorneyJun 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Did you just use "Cassiopeia" and "lack of damage" in the same sentence?

umm yes becuase her damage is extreemly low now . did you even play cass before her rework

Battlecast SonaJun 5, 20152 votes

I think you're legitimately insane. Cassi lategame was garbage pre-rework, and anyone that says otherwise is deluding themselves. Cassi's entire job before her rework was to put the midlaner she was playing against behind by bullying them and then win in the mid-game with perma-kite and sustain. Now she retains the perma-kite, can easily hit 1100 AP+ with her new passive... And you're complaining about her damage? Get out of here.

The Queen ViperJun 5, 20152 votes

Cassiopeias late game before the rework was just fine actually... and the X amount of AP doesn't really matter when your AP ratios suck ass. Sure her E does more dmg than before, but that's about it.

khorneyJun 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeias late game before the rework was just fine actually... and the X amount of AP doesn't really matter when your AP ratios suck ass. Sure her E does more dmg than before, but that's about it.

Praise the gods someone who knows what I'm talking about lol kudos . this guy posted she can easily reach 1k ap I'm like so why does that matter when your ratios are like 20 % lol

khorneyJun 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HL9wp3nQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-05T04:07:35.762+0000)

I think you're legitimately insane. Cassi lategame was garbage pre-rework, and anyone that says otherwise is deluding themselves. Cassi's entire job before her rework was to put the midlaner she was playing against behind by bullying them and then win in the mid-game with perma-kite and sustain. Now she retains the perma-kite, can easily hit 1100 AP+ with her new passive... And you're complaining about her damage? Get out of here.

Your def wrong but okay pre rework Cass would smash post rework Cass you do realize you have to have 1100 ap to do damage her ratios on her q and w not only do less damage now but the ratios dropped from 85% to less then 20% and that's op how. She is weak she is pure late game now . before she was strong early mid and late now she is weak early and mid. I had like some

Leu07Jun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your def wrong but okay pre rework Cass would smash post rework Cass you do realize you have to have 1100 ap to do damage her ratios on her q and w not only do less damage now but the ratios dropped from 85% to less then 20% and that's op how. She is weak she is pure late game now . before she was strong early mid and late now she is weak early and mid. I had like some

I'm going to have to disagree with you... current cassio is not weak at all, maybe her early is weaker than it was supposed to be, but her late game is insane (still very vulnerable though) what I notice is that because her E now has the on-cast poison check instead of on-hit, she can spam it quicklier than before and hence, she has more dps than before.

khorneyJun 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to have to disagree with you... current cassio is not weak at all, maybe her early is weaker than it was supposed to be, but her late game is insane (still very vulnerable though) what I notice is that because her E now has the on-cast poison check instead of on-hit, she can spam it quicklier than before and hence, she has more dps than before.

Her e was the same before . she does less dps then she had before that ap that you clearly state is so high .again doesn't mean anything when your ratios are less then 20% now as opposed to before . her damage isn't anywhere as good as pre rework Cass was

Byakuya KuchikiJun 4, 20153 votes

why does vayne have the highest attack speed of all the ADCs? because she doesnt have a steriod, why do tanks and people with armor steroids have low armor? because if they had high armor they would shit on all physical damage dealers with high base armor and steroid combined

an example of this is poppy who has the highest armor at level 18 and can literally 1v5 if everyone has 6 items and she plays it correctly

lDontLiftIcarryJun 4, 20153 votes

kass has a 15% damage reduction to MR the gap closer spamming abomination has to be weak to something. master yi has an W that gives him basically invul. jax has dodge and R. trundle has R olaf has R.

also half those champions have a point and click hard CC or mobility. you can't have everything in a kit or you'd be a champion made after 2011 falcon.

these are bad examples falcon.

IcyPepperJun 4, 20153 votes

Prepare to get downvoted without a response because apparently OP's opinion is better than actual fact.

Base stats are a horrible comparison about champions, ESPECIALLY if your original post blatantly says "And don't say "but some of those champions have giant armor steroids" because that's not how you handle balance. You don't balance by numbers alone.

lDontLiftIcarryJun 4, 20152 votes

No, I know falcon from my old NA account that i transfered to LAN a year or so ago. He's just upset he lost to a cass lol

IcyPepperJun 4, 20151 votes

Sounds like it. It's not like Cass's base armor is a game changer. Hell, considering immobile mages vs assassins, a little extra armor vs Zed doesn't really hurt.

Also, called it.

Anyway, yeah. It's not like Cass gets passive AP for her passive AP steroid, so it's fair to compare to champions who build defenses and have defensive steroids who just get a little less base armor and sometimes magic resist per level. Cass doesn't get magic resist per level, should she?

lDontLiftIcarryJun 4, 20151 votes

imo cass is far weaker than pre rework in terms of late/mid game scaling on her abilities her rotation is weaker so idk how riot thinks she's some late game fantasy. They removed .8 scaling on her Q and .7+ scaling on her W...so.. idk what to say to how bad she feels to play late game. They just made her E do more stuff. her overal damage output is less.

If they just made it so her E has faster refresh rate on hitting poison she'd have been fine.

the E refunding mana is good but it really isn't needed. Could've buffed her base mana regen/mana per level and that would've been fine. Personally I like the e refund though. Thought that was a solid change. I still like old cass more. maxing Q was more my style. but oh well, No one likes the way I play champs. that was clear when my kat and karma were rework despite me writing articles about it not needing to happen all they had to do for kat was lower the time spent channeling ult. And for karma give her one more mantra charge.

khorneyJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

imo cass is far weaker than pre rework in terms of late/mid game scaling on her abilities her rotation is weaker so idk how riot thinks she's some late game fantasy. They removed .8 scaling on her Q and .7+ scaling on her W...so.. idk what to say to how bad she feels to play late game. They just made her E do more stuff. her overal damage output is less.

If they just made it so her E has faster refresh rate on hitting poison she'd have been fine.

the E refunding mana is good but it really isn't needed. Could've buffed her base mana regen/mana per level and that would've been fine. Personally I like the e refund though. Thought that was a solid change. I still like old cass more. maxing Q was more my style. but oh well, No one likes the way I play champs. that was clear when my kat and karma were rework despite me writing articles about it not needing to happen all they had to do for kat was lower the time spent channeling ult. And for karma give her one more mantra charge.

Lol thank you for agreeing with me she is hella weak now but you can get 1k ap why does that matter now since e is your only damage and your w and e pretty much are useless . since the scaling is like 15% or something like that cmparex to the 80 % on her q and e like before now she has no anti tank moves like before when you could melt anyone with ryails and liandrys . now you can't do anything

killd0zerJun 4, 20152 votes

omg why does the no mobility champ have more tankiness? :0

BETTER NERF LEBLANC XD

SpuzzmockerJun 4, 20152 votes

Makes sense thematically. Scaly snake skin. Clearly tougher than regular skin

StrawberrycocoaJun 4, 20152 votes

I would surmise that high base armor is because Cassiopeia's kit demands she get right on her opponents ass and stay there spamming Fangs. She's built to favor prolonged stays in enemy range, so she has higher base armor than some others.

Also most of the characters you listed build Armor as part of their standard build, mages won't always do that. So their armor is tuned with the expectation that they will also be buying armor items.

IcyPepperJun 4, 20152 votes

Olaf has 77 Trundle has 73 Jax has 78 Master Yi has 75 Kassadin has 77

First off, you can't compare ONE stat between champions without comparing the rest, especially if you admit you're going to ignore the giant armor steroids.

Cass has slightly more base armor, sustain, and cc built into her kit.

Trundle has sustain, cc, a sustain/healing steroid, and steals health and resistances (BOTH lowering the enemy's defenses and raising his, instead of one or the other, justifies slightly lower base armor).

Jax dodges basic attacks with one spell, takes less damage from aoe spells with the same spell, and has a defensive steroid. Mostly seems like a glass cannon until he activates these defensive steroids.

Kassadin takes 15% less damage from magic damage. I have no idea why you're complaining he has lower base armor than Cass.

Olaf has sustain and defensive steroids.

All those champions have some form of sustain or defensive steroid in their kit, justifying slightly lower base defenses that doesn't matter when they're full build. It's like arguing why Cass doesn't stack AP like Veigar does because of her passive AP steroid.

Aeolian MelodiesJun 4, 20152 votes

The champions you listed either have mobility (Jax, Kass, Yi), MS steroids (Yi, Trundle), defensive steroids/heals/shields, or a combination of the above. Riot's stance on having a steroid is that your base insert stat should be lower than average so that you aren't "overboard". For instance, Graves' shit AS is because he has an AS steroid, Riven has low HP regen because she has a shield, etc.

Before she received a round of nerfs to her W, pre-rework Sona had the lowest HP and armor in the game. Lower than Anivia who has 2 lives, lower than Lux who has insane range, lower even than lane creeps. Without runes, masteries, or the use of abilities, Sona would've lost a lvl 1 encounter to a lane creep. Her AD was nerfed too at some point if I remember well. The reason behind that? "Well the auras give her free stats so her base stats must be lowered so that she doesn't have an unfair advantage." Mk. What's the point of even having a steroid?

Curling VeigarJun 5, 20152 votes

I love your threads... they actually make sense

Leu07Jun 4, 20151 votes

Is people still asking for more Cassiopeia nerfs? wtaf.

khorneyJun 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Is people still asking for more Cassiopeia nerfs? wtaf.

She is already weak what more could they nerf on her . Her ap scaling is the lowest of pretty much all mid laners and he'll rengars w does more damage then Cass q and w

EmExMar 13, 20161 votes

yes she feels kinda weak, but trust me if Riot would just nerf the op champs she would be in a fine place.

djjomonJun 5, 20151 votes

Because she won't built it like most melees do... I guess.

TheUltimateSpearJun 5, 20151 votes

That's not just Cassiopeia, though. Basically, before stats were "Standardized" or something of the sort late s4/early s5, base stats were pretty much tinkering tools. For example, if Riot suspected a champion to be a little underpowered/overpowered, they adjusted base stats accordingly to compensate. On release, Cassiopeia WAS underpowered, however slightly, and maybe they foresaw that and gave her an unusually high amount of base armor. Of course, they still do that now, despite it being an ever so meaningless way to deal with broken mechanics. (Lowering Kat's health and regen's not going to stop her bullshit resets, lowering Riven's regen and health isn't going to stop her level 2 cheese, at least in a good and meaningful way, and lowering Ekko's movespeed isn't going to change his overloaded, finnicky kit)

Or, it could just be the way the cookie crumbles and they gave her 90 base armor on a whim. Miss Fortune's got more base health than Shen, a huge amount of health despite being ranged, as does Kayle. Kayle in general Has melee base stats despite her might as well being ranged. Skarner's got 125+ base AD just because.

It may be a reason to say "fuck Cassiopeia," I'll give you that, but it's her shoddy rework that amplified rather than subdued the frustrating elements of her kit that puts her on everyone's hate list IMO.