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Kat needs something done but this is not the answer.

Poptart Evelynn··4 votes·1,210 views

I'm a Katarina main and I understand the point behind these changes/nerfs. It's not that she is broken but more so that the enemy doesn't feel they can do much when it happens so fast. I see that these changes are aimed at slowing down how fast she rotates down kills with more risk and options but with much less burst. But this is not the right way to do it.

See the problem about these changes is that they remove a lot of her ability to lane. Forcing a player to have to shunpu enemy champ on trades straight up nerfs half of her lane match ups. Take Zed or Syndra for instance. You do not want to shunpu them directly on a trade but near them. When a zed uses his combo you want to e a minion near him, q/w him, and run away without ever getting in his e/AA range. Now Syndra is similar in a way. She can reposition her q you dodge and slap it right on top of you. When you shunpu a minion near her it allows you to utilize that movespeed to dodge that incoming reposition ball. If you are on top of her it is much harder to dodge. The issue with that is that if you lose these trade potentials you will never be able to trade. I'm not even going to go into the issues this kit will have towards mid to late game when she can't get any kill gold or minion gold early on.

The main issue with Kat is her mid to late game with resets in fights. Nerf/change her appropriately where it matters. Resets has always been something near impossible to balance without it making the kit extremely weak(and that is exactly what you are doing, nerfing her kit damage potential to balance the resets).

***There is a really simple fix here. ***Make resets apply a 1 second cooldown. Kinda like how MMORPG's have a global one second cooldown except make it only on each move and allow it to stack/decay over time(doesn't have to just an idea if you did want to nerf the damage). She wont be able to just throw 3-4 bouncing blades all proc'ing the second proc on each hit and just demolishing an enemy team in less than a second. Kat would have to play it correctly and utilize the move speed more for positioning than damage on each kill(the w). The enemy would have time to respond well. They would actually be able to react in time. Dfg is going to nerf the cheese dfg/e/q/w/r kill 1-2 people zhonya instantly. She doesn't need damage nerfs. Kat is a burst aoe mage assassin, this isn't the issue, instant resets are the issue.

TL:DR Resets are the real issues. Add a second cooldown on each move after resets like how global cooldowns work in MMORPG's but on each move separately.

13 Comments

Maximum Morde4 votes

I just wish they would implement a global cooldown so you could actually have enough time to react before she used all her skills and was gone somewhere else. Alot of assassins suffer from this brand of lacking counterplay. It's not so much that they do too much damage or whatever, just that they do it all instantly and are gone without giving you any chance to fight back once computer and human lag is factored in. It wouldn't need to be long either, something like 1/3 - 1/2 of a second global cooldown would be more than adequate.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HI3XIkd9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-24T06:55:04.402+0000)

I just wish they would implement a global cooldown so you could actually have enough time to react before she used all her skills and was gone somewhere else. Alot of assassins suffer from this brand of lacking counterplay. It's not so much that they do too much damage or whatever, just that they do it all instantly and are gone without giving you any chance to fight back once computer and human lag is factored in. It wouldn't need to be long either, something like 1/3 - 1/2 of a second global cooldown would be more than adequate.

Remember the average response rate of a person is 0.3 seconds. Let alone a thought our reaction is 0.5 so this is why I feel that 1 second is where it should be but not globally just on each move alone.

LankPants1 votes

Remember the average response rate of a person is 0.3 seconds. Let alone a thought our reaction is 0.5 so this is why I feel that 1 second is where it should be but not globally just on each move alone.

That kind of depends on how you play. For some people they play fights mostly on reflex and 0.5 seconds would be enough time for them to react to an assassin as long as they have under 50 ping. Others are more strategic in fights relying less on mechanics, for these people 0.5 seconds might not be enough.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

under 50 ping

on NA i feel extremely lucky to get 80 ping, many people i know get 200-300 ping.

xNitori1 votes

I could get behind that - I really like Katarina's adrenaline-splitsecond-reaction playstyle, and that's one of the reasons I play her.

Nerfing her damage in favor of mobility feels just wrong. Mobility doesn't matter much if you can't hit hard; she is a caster and doesn't rely on AAs to do most of her damage.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

{quoted}

I could get behind that - I really like Katarina's adrenaline-splitsecond-reaction playstyle, and that's one of the reasons I play her.

Nerfing her damage in favor of mobility feels just wrong. Mobility doesn't matter much if you can't hit hard; she is a caster and doesn't rely on AAs to do most of her damage.

I feel the same way.

DrMarshSwamp1 votes

Personally I just want the Shunpo - Death Lotus combo to not be as effective as it currently is.

If you're playing a champion with limited CC or Mobility it is really annoying fighting Katarina due to that one combo since a fair amount of the time she'll just Shunpo into Death Lotus, either killing you or taking out a large chunk of your health, and outright obliterating squishies without stuns/silences.

In general I also don't like Shunpo having as much damage as it does considering its a point-and-click teleport on fairly low cooldowns, and how there isn't a whole lot of counterplay available against those kind of abilities.

I mean with dashes and stuff you at least have a chance of dodging, with these abilities if you're in range you're gonna be hit.

LankPants1 votes

All they need to do to Kat is revert the change to Death Lotus where they removed the .25 second delay on it. At the moment all of her basic abilities deal damage instantly and you can put down 1-2 ticks worth of Death Lotus damage in your instant burst. Re-adding the delay allows you to be CC'd before dealing any damage and makes Kat think about when to press R, as well as giving her opponents some reaction time to something on her kit.

kirbyzama1 votes

I just don't understand the changes, like what kat does or what she will bring. Why pick this new Kat? The new Kat does some damage but significantly less up front and overall. She scales more with ad on w and more with ap on q. Sure her q has a bit more damage but her w was rework where its hard to pin point at what points its a buff or nerf. She has a lot of mobility but still has the problem of doing no damage after the spells are down and she needs to sit there and take abuse for 3 seconds just to run away and most likely losing the trade. Her damage reduction was nerfed for the early levels of e I believe so unless you max it second, which is pointless on an assassin as it does no damage, she is less tanky. She has her ult which is more than enough damage to be impactful but in most scenarios she is just going to be hopping around doing nothing. It kinda reminds me of the problem I have with Shaco. He jumps around and has his uses but usually he puts a little damage and runs away or split pushes and runs away.

I just don't understand having mobility when you can't kill something or cc something. All She'll do now is KS her carries for resets that become meaningless if the followup damage is mediocre. I also don't get this push towards being ad or aa reliant either which was nerfed anyway as her attack speed is reduced. I would need to see the actual rework to make a real judgement but on paper it doesn't seem like it should work.

LankPants1 votes

I think they might be aiming for a character who skirts a fight going in and out chipping at the enemies until they get low before cleaning the fight with her resets. It might work if fights lasted more than 5 seconds.

kirbyzama1 votes

If her job is just to last hit enemy champions then the team was most likely winning the fight without her. I mean Yasuo has has much resource-less mobile with the same restrictions of use while also deal massive damage in both single target and aoe. He also brings his unique utility in windwall. All this while not have confused damage scalings. Current Kat can win fights on her own. Perhaps not fun or fair to play against but its a reason to play her.

I mean I usually like champ changes. I never complained when Soraka was changed or even Cass because I at least could see a use and lo and behold they turned out to be pretty good after some work. I just don't see this Kat being useful. I'm sure they'll get it to work eventually.(they salvaged skarner after all) I just predict this flopping if/when it goes live.

A little Peepo1 votes

1 trick ponies have never been balanced nor will they ever see balance (eve, akali, lb, twitch) I really don't find katarina OP nor in need of any huge changes but a few nerfs to her early game and that's about it but idk this change may evolve kat into an ad assassin like TF, BT, ect) who knows xD but her she is getting the eve treatment and eve did fine when they turned her into a bruiser, may work wonders on kat, who knows

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I agree that the reset changes may be necessary, but I don't begrudge them for trying this first. The reason I can't agree with what you said outright is that it ignores a very important fact; getting the proc on bouncing blade is a lot more damage now. I understand your concerns about her farm and everything, but as an Assassin, I don't think she should be able to reliably farm. She SHOULD rely on kills, either in lane or by roaming.

I always relied on the movespeed on W to get me away from an opponent, and I do often shunpo onto an opponent just because of the extra damage. These changes don't sound like they'll change my playstyle much. You may say that I'm a noob for playing that way, which may be true. However, I think playing that way is high risk, high reward. And Riot's changes are going to buff that risky playstyle. I can't be against it until I've tried it, at least.

Even if she can't get kills, it would be nice if she had enough damage to force opponents out of lane, rather than safely farm at a distance, and the extra damage on proc will help with that. I get what you're saying; this may not be possible. But I appreciate their effort. We'll see how it goes. I am cautiously optimistic.

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