It feels like Junglers don't get punished enough for ganking anymore...

ValyrianBlade··3 votes·1,250 views

AFAIK Riot intentionally changed the jungle to give Junglers more time to gank without having to give up so much clears. That in itself may be fine, but it bothers me that enemy junglers can outright camp a lane without getting kills and not fall behind because of it.

I feel like it was a lot healthier when a jungler had to give something up to get off a gank. It doesn't seem very fair that Junglers can exert so much map pressure all early game and never have to worry about falling behind in levels. Comeback experience is sufficient if they ever do mess up and forget to clear for too long (like 5+ minutes) they're back in the game shortly thereafter anyways. Outside of that though, they can clear the far side then gank your lane and your jungler can't take anything from them.

You'd just think that as a laner with the enemy jungler sitting in your lane for literally half of the early game, as long as you don't die your team should develop a pretty big lead. What seems to happen though is I fall 15+ CS back on my lane opponent because of the jungle pressure and unless my jungler gets a kill in another lane we get no better off because of it. If my jungler chooses to try to steal an enemy camp he just wastes his time finding empty camps and then they lose nothing at all (and actually get AHEAD off of FAILED ganks).

Maybe it has just been a few bad games, but it feels like junglers have way more presence than ever before and can't really be punished when they fail their ganks. The "counterplay" to junglers is pretty much gone...

12 Comments

Harvey Rabbit1 votes

What you need is support Singed to go fux their junglers camps up. Oh wait.... [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Jbels1 votes

When were they ever this season?

redniwediS1 votes

It's definitely a fine line to draw between farm junglers and gank junglers. Hopefully they have given themselves the right tools to adjust that line to the perfect point in between, unlike the last few times they have tried.

Electrify691 votes

As a jungler you do lose alot off of camping one lane especially if you fail the ganks because if you know the jungler is there let your team know then they can be aggressive and apply lane pressure elsewhere on the map. If I'm camping mid sitting on a ward and you tell your team then they can be agro and make riskier plays without the threat of me ganking or counter ganking

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subaru Best Car,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HHxFZ3E1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-18T01:22:23.066+0000)

As a jungler you do lose alot off of camping one lane especially if you fail the ganks because if you know the jungler is there let your team know then they can be aggressive and apply lane pressure elsewhere on the map. If I'm camping mid sitting on a ward and you tell your team then they can be agro and make riskier plays without the threat of me ganking or counter ganking

They aren't standing on wards. It's just repeated ganks. Like he ganks, I back off, he leaves, circles back and tries again.

At first I thought it was because I was wrecking my lane opponents so far. The first 3 games as top I got huge pressure early in the lane as J4 or Quinn and just started getting camped hard. It wasn't fun but it made some sense. Then I just played a game today on a champion I don't play and still got ganked 4 times before level 4. Literally Shaco showed on my ward and I backed off, then he went back and stealthed over the same ward for the second gank and got my flash. Then he left and I was playing super passively farming from max range as TF and he tried to gank me twice more when I was already so close to my tower. Like, last season I'm pretty sure spending 3 of the first 6 minutes ganking a lane without getting a kill should have made a Shaco pretty garbage - but then he just left my lane and showed bot not long later at the same level as my jungler and got a kill and suddenly went off.

Just tiring, get camped when I'm winning lane, get camped when I'm losing lane, die in neither case but somehow the enemy jungler doesn't fall behind mine who's just farming.

Then I get a game where my team is doing poorly and as soon as our jungler starts ganking the game just goes off - from 1/5 to 18/5 in about 10 minutes...

Weathered1 votes

On the contrary, in higher ELOS ganking is even more punishable. Since camps are less frequent but give around the same xp, counter invading is really damaging.

Example, I see the Lee sin ganking top, I then steal 2-3 of his bot side jungle camps while he is ganking, taking half his jungle clear xp for the entire (now longer) respawn times of those camps.

It's even worse if the gank doesn't result in a kill, they you are left with only half a jungle of xp when you could've had a full jungle and kill.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

On the contrary, in higher ELOS ganking is even more punishable. Since camps are less frequent but give around the same xp, counter invading is really damaging.

Example, I see the Lee sin ganking top, I then steal 2-3 of his bot side jungle camps while he is ganking, taking half his jungle clear xp for the entire (now longer) respawn times of those camps.

It's even worse if the gank doesn't result in a kill, they you are left with only half a jungle of xp when you could've had a full jungle and kill.

Yea, but with the longer spawn times he can clear that bot half of the jungle then go top, and when he shows top and you stop clearing your jungle to steal his bot jungle he at least gets a little pressure on top (like I miss 3+ cs because of him, maybe lose a chunk of health, maybe back suboptimally) and you just get a ward in an empty jungle but otherwise waste a minute and a half walking in to and then out of his empty bot side. He failed a gank and yet gained an advantage. That seems unfair to me.

Weathered1 votes

That's what the new scrying orb is used mostly for, scouting the camps left. You also have the option of just ganking bot side as he ganks top.

The punishment for ganks hasn't changed much, however the need for a apt jungler probably has. It'll take people some time to adjust.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

That's what the new scrying orb is used mostly for, scouting the camps left. You also have the option of just ganking bot side as he ganks top.

The punishment for ganks hasn't changed much, however the need for a apt jungler probably has. It'll take people some time to adjust.

Don't most junglers take sweeper lens?

And yes, but my point is that if a jungler ganks they should be giving something up. If the only response is to gank another Lane, then it just comes down to which gank works or there's no gain / no loss. There should be a safe option to punish a jungler that spends too much time ganking without getting kills - right now it seems any punishment to the jungler who FAILED his gank is LESS than the punishment to the laner that SUCCEEDED in surviving the gank.

Weathered1 votes

{quoted}

That's what the new scrying plant is used mostly for, scouting the camps left.

Mess up on my part.

RexSaur1 votes

They need to completely get rid of the whole "extra comeback experience".

Theres no such thing as falling behind as a jungler even if you play like shit you get rewarded for being behind and babied out, a jungler that isnt afk is never behind the map, he can only be behind the OTHER jungler and not the other lanes, the role is just so forgiving and overpowered that its sad, it actually took skill before too, now you just watch junglers playing overpowered no skill garbage and deciding games in 10 minutes.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

They need to completely get rid of the whole "extra comeback experience".

Theres no such thing as falling behind as a jungler even if you play like shit you get rewarded for being behind and babied out, a jungler that isnt afk is never behind the map, he can only be behind the OTHER jungler and not the other lanes, the role is just so forgiving and overpowered that its sad, it actually took skill before too, now you just watch junglers playing overpowered no skill garbage and deciding games in 10 minutes.

Yes i agree. Comeback experience was really only any good for helping keep a disconnection from meaning you're entirely out of the game. I think jungle comeback xp now is just too forgiving. It'd be better if there was just a change that if someone was in fountain for over 1 min they start gaining levels to stay 1 level below the next lowest player. Solves the problem more directly and actually makes falling behind mean something.

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