Is Talon slated for a rework anytime soon?

Guy Fox Teemo··9 votes·6,709 views

He's been repeatedly nerfed several times, just because of Incredibly strong his kit, is since it has no counter play except for buying a pink ward, but even then he can still jump and kill you but you can see it. His kit is terribly designed and just making no sense. It's just a super burst champion that gives you zero reaction time to do anything as you'll be dead the moment he jumps on you since all his damage is instant. Talon's one of my favorite champions and I hate no being able to play him because of all the nerfs he received because of his badly designed kit.

I'd love to see Riot give him a Fiora size rework, I think theres a lot of potential to make him a Great, Fun and Interesting Champion to play.

48 Comments

RiotMeddler16 votes

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

LegacyDAP2 votes

I have another question since you answered his so kindly. Do you think we'll see any Yorick changes any time soon?

Zhoke1 votes

yorick was scheduled a year and a half ago to get support play-style kit, which obviously never happened

LegacyDAP1 votes

I bet Riot will do it soon though. They will at least make him a more fun champion to play. I honestly have more fun playing Poppy and Taric than I do Yorick.

Desiderium2 votes

Some counterplay is already present in his kit because of the fact that two of his spells have their damage split into halves (W and R) This is one of the reasons why I believe Talon to be a well designed champion despite his age. I'm really proud of his designer.

Of course if you guys can think of something better that allows him to remain effective while still being fun to play against, then I'd love to see the result. I'm just saying that the way his kit is designed with his split and segmented damage has made it stand the test of time (and counterplay) rather decently.

Miraweave9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:08:12.599+0000)

Some counterplay is already present in his kit because of the fact that two of his spells have their damage split into halves (W and R) This is one of the reasons why I believe Talon to be a well designed champion despite his age. I'm really proud of his designer.

Of course if you guys can think of something better that allows him to remain effective while still being fun to play against, then I'd love to see the result. I'm just saying that the way his kit is designed with his split and segmented damage has made it stand the test of time (and counterplay) rather decently.

The only counterplay to W is flashing away from it. Talon double taps R anyway, so the only real counterplay there is also to flash away from it.

"Flash away from them" is not reasonable counterplay.

Desiderium5 votes

Flashing isn't the only way to get away from a projectile. How long have you been playing this game?

Only Fish7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:17:49.828+0000)

Flashing isn't the only way to get away from a projectile. How long have you been playing this game?

Talon pulls off his full burst combo in roughly 2 seconds. Normally at the end of his combo he will use r->w to instantly get both parts of his ult damage off. There's not a terrible amount of counterplay to it.

Desiderium3 votes

The fact that he no longer has a silence, combined with the fact that his primary damaging spells are segmented, provide you with many ways to dodge his damage, such as blinks, projectile blocks, and on-demand untargetability. A decent Zed or a decent Fizz will always beat a Talon that is higher skilled than them, because of the many ways they have to dodge his damage especially due to the fact that he no longer has a silence.

Talon's designer was a genius when he made the segmented damage in his W and R, there's no disagreeing with that.

Fun fact: It doesn't matter much anymore, but his Rake's travel time was always 1 second long, and it always took 0.25 seconds to cast, meaning back when he had his silence you always had 0.25 seconds to dodge the second half of his W and R damage. Now you have as much freedom as you want.

Only Fish3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:23:34.928+0000)

The fact that he no longer has a silence, combined with the fact that his primary damaging spells are segmented, provide you with many ways to dodge his damage, such as blinks, projectile blocks, and on-demand untargetability. A decent Zed or a decent Fizz will always beat a Talon that is higher skilled than them, because of the many ways they have to dodge his damage especially due to the fact that he no longer has a silence.

Talon's designer was a genius when he made the segmented damage in his W and R, there's no disagreeing with that.

Fun fact: It doesn't matter much anymore, but his Rake's travel time was always 1 second long, and it always took 0.25 seconds to cast, meaning back when he had his silence you always had 0.25 seconds to dodge the second half of his W and R damage. Now you have as much freedom as you want.

You've listed two champions that have many ways to dodge his damage, now list the counterplay EVERY champion has against him. And don't bother saying flash, as Talon could just flash right after them. I also don't think you've ever gone against a decent Talon, or you'd know how quickly he can get his damage off.

Desiderium2 votes

The speed is irrelevant as long as the spells have cast and travel times, which they do, and which many champions can use to their advantage. Not just Fizz and Zed. Hell, if all else fails, you can even use Zhonya's. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how many champions have the mechanics available to abuse Talon's cast times.

I've been playing this game for over four years.

Talon was my first main.

Trust me when I say he has decent counterplay available.

Only Fish5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:29:53.290+0000)

The speed is irrelevant as long as the spells have cast and travel times, which they do, and which many champions can use to their advantage. Not just Fizz and Zed. Hell, if all else fails, you can even use Zhonya's. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how many champions have the mechanics available to abuse Talon's cast times.

I've been playing this game for over four years.

Talon was my first main.

Trust me when I say he has decent counterplay available.

Only an idiot trusts without proof. That's the same as saying release Xin had decent counterplay and was completely balanced just because I main him. An argument falls apart without evidence to support it.

Not that I'm saying I have a problem with Talon. I don't mind where he is right now, and I don't really mind if you want to bother listing any evidence as I don't feel that invested in Talon anyway.

Divewing1 votes

He can burst at rengar levels of speed with no notice at all, rengars exclamation mark at least gives warning, talons stealth has no such thing, his lane ganks are insane burst in a tiny time window, so cast times or not, reaction times are also a thing. That and 1.2k crits with Q - .-

William Cobb Pen2 votes

Think of all the mid laners in game that are assassin now imaging all those who are also ad. Zed is the only one I can think to mention in just about every regard Zed does every thing that Talon does but safer. His upfront bust is done in about 2-4 second after that he got nothing to let him back out. Any ap mid laner can and will simply build a Zhonyas and cancel most if not all his burst. In addition unlike other mid lane assassin he has no viable way out If he engages wrong. Team fight are also a massive problem for him because of the reason listed before. A good Talon can't overcome the fact that his kit while strong is a bit out dated if you think he's in a good spot you don't know the champion. His passive doesn't even come close to the bush hop that rengar get so don't complain about the no indication. In high levels of play a talon is expected to get a 1 for 1 a best most other assassin are expected and often do kill their target and safely get out. Saying that talon has no counter play is simple untrue because so many of his mid lane rivals are very effective at stopping him from snowballing only a select few are unable to had him in lane and those who can't often are more utility based. also his w range isn't that large a poke heavy mage will simply poke him out of lane if he can't all in before he's too low. The simple fact his kit might have been good for a while but with this current state of the game he isn't a smart pick if you play him it's because you want to not because your team need you too. I love Talon but his kit simply isn't justifying him to be picked more often so how about let just give him the same amount of buff the juggernauts got a see what happens cause that's how you balance out people with strong but outdated kits right?

Miraweave4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:17:49.828+0000)

Flashing isn't the only way to get away from a projectile. How long have you been playing this game?

Dashing doesn't do it because if you dash you're still going to get hit by the return projectile.

And even then, "Some mobile champions can sometimes negate some of his burst" isn't reasonable counterplay. I understand that you play talon and are severely biased towards him, but his counterplay is definitely on the low end for assassins and he's not a healthy champion when he's strong.

Desiderium2 votes

Being biased has nothing to do with having the extensive game knowledge necessary to know how to counter a champion.

Just because you aren't experienced with said champion and don't know how to counter him doesn't mean he isn't healthy.

Either way, it would be okay if you wouldn't be throwing away people's advice and trying to reaffirm your view of Talon being broken by calling them biased when they're trying to help you learn why he isn't.

Divewing2 votes

He is though... Talon is only somewhat balanced higher elo you go because people don't give him easy targets, so usually he's trading 1 for 1 at best, but that's it.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

With Talon's projectiles, you can't get away from them EXCEPT for flashing away, excluding champion-specific abilities that include either untargetability or mobility, which only further increases the mobility creep in the game.

His W has a wide enough hitbox and a slow, so if you get hit by the first, you are guaranteed to get hit by the second if you don't flash out of it. The wide hitbox also guarantees that you will take damage if you are in range, which is guaranteed with his E.

His ultimate comes out instantaneously. Because Talon can pull it back almost immediately, is already in melee range, and will likely slow you with at least one of the two abilities he has with a slow, the second hit is guaranteed.

How do you get out of them? Flash out. It's that simple. Except it's not because Flash has a much higher cooldown than Talon's burst combo. Or you can counterpick him with a champion that has mobility or untargettability to escape his burst, but that's not healthy for the game because the game shouldn't be decided at champion select.

William Cobb Pen3 votes

Don't be in range of it. Not exactly a huge range on his w. But his E will put him behind so unless you let him clear all your minion before the blink he will be taken minion damage depending which laner you are you should be able to turn it around. This is talon pre 6. post 6 yeah he can burst you down and will try so. I don't know tower hug ask for a gank talon a fairly easy to gank if he hasn't been given any kills between the two of you a talon can only use all his burst one if he wants a guaranteed kill the other will probably get the kill. Yes he's strong against certain champ but to say that's unfair is like saying that some one picking Renekton because you choose Nasus is unfair. And also his ult isn't the damage it's the autos he gets off so you know anyone with a blink, invisibility, a large dash, shadows, untargettability, stun or a Zhous should get a way. if you don't panic or misclick.

ApexInTheCircle5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skill Command,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HGTH43EE,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:16:48.580+0000)

The only counterplay to W is flashing away from it. Talon double taps R anyway, so the only real counterplay there is also to flash away from it.

"Flash away from them" is not reasonable counterplay.

Sooo by that logic using Zhonyas isn't counterplay to Zed because you have to use something akin to summoners?

Countermander2 votes

Dear Me Am Smart.

Please live up to your name.

Flash is not counterplay, of course. But you should also think from a Talon's perspectives.

What are Talon's counterplays against others?

With the removal of silence, Talon now jumps on a target.

Syndra used stun! Fizz used dodge! Zed used ult! Karthus used slow+zhonya!

Talon uses ult.

Red scanner trinket, pink ward. Case closed.

Talon has very few counter play against others, which I think is aptly resembling of how others have few counter play against a very well thought-out assault of Talon. read my other comment in support of Tomb of Insomnia

Countermander4 votes

Tomb of Insomnia, fear not, for I stand with you.

People must realize that Tomb of Insomnia brings up a valid point; Talon does have counter play against him, and many. Talon has few counter play against others.

Riot's official guidance on how to play against Talon, in champ descriptions:

"Talon has no sustain in lane, so poke and harrass to suppress his growth." Very true. Talon has nothing to rely on other than his trusty health potions. He cannot even safely farm, and has to face the many auto attacks from the enemy champ. Not to mention the skills he has to dodge. His weak early game is his breaking point, much like Akali or Azir or say.

Talon's rake is very heavy in mana costs, and he gains little from it. Vapora Dark has it covered that Talon is forced to use W only for farming, pre 6. It is a pain to play against almost any champ that is not melee.

Talon ults and stealths! So waht? Pop a pink ward or do the red scanner trinket! Talon is revealed! CC him, kill him, he's as weak as a minion in terms of durability (not exaggerating here).

I am very shocked that many people in this post are still. STILL. yelling to nerf Talon.

He just got his silence removed, for Talon's sake, the one edge he had against many mages.

A silence that lasts one. One. second.

Keep in mind, that Talon has received multiple nerfs to his Bonus AD ratio and his dmg in his W and R. Also keep in mind that Talon's E's dmg amp has not been activated until S3, where Riot shockingly discovered was never in action (ha. classic Riot). Now S4, S5, the appearance of trinkets make it very easy for any champ to reveal Talon's stealth, his only means of escape.

Some people here talk about how other champs' counter play to Talon is flash. Well guess what, Talon's counter play to escape/outplay is flash.

AND NOW. with the removal of silence, Talon has no means of attacking or holding his enemy, and can only see them escape. Talon is weak on his own. Talon is a weakling.

But LoL is not a game of 1 v 5. It is a team game. The TEAM will create situations ideal for Talon. They will create the best angle for his skills, will take out enemy's exhaust so Talon can go in, will create Talon's roaming angles for ganks...

If a silence-less Talon, compounding with his numerous dmg nerfs he already received, still manages to kill you in game, I can only say that there is nothing wrong with Talon, but there is something wrong with what YOU and YOUR TEAM is doing in the game. Are you allowing Talon to split push, when he is as strong in SP as Master Yi or Sivir? Are you not using pink wards or red scanners? Are you ignoring the fact that Talon is mia, and just ignores that?

Talon is all about timing now. That's all he's got. Riot and you childish haters have took away his silence, cut his dmg in half. The only thing every good Talon out there looking for is a decent timing to charge in and unleash the combo. AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. You should all know that this is compulsory. Because even a level 18 Talon will only have as much as 2000 health with 80 armor and 60 MR, which any. Any same-grown ADC or APC mage can shred him to parts with their full combo/ AutoAttacks. Not to mention bruisers or Tanks. He's weak in terms of durability, that's why Talon cannot afford to be hit, thus his combo needs to be as short as possible, like the "2 seconds" some childish guy whined about, because if he cannot kill the enemy in that TWO SECONDS, he'd be the one who's dead.

For some thoughts, much like Tomb of Insomnia said, Talon's 2 trademark skills/dmg is split in 2 parts, both. To make the bursts healthier, he could have the projectiles slowed down, or have them return to Talon after a longer time, so he too can become like Zed to have a "healthy burst" (classic Rito. full grown Zed can ALSO kill you in 2 seconds, not considering the Ult).

I write this on a mobile in my college class, because I felt empathy for Tomb of Insomnia who got beaten and downvoted by the haters for speaking true words. You people who downvoted should feel bad.

Sincerely, a Korean plat LoL Lover Talon Main, Aygo

Countermander2 votes

Very quickly, the 1300 dmg Q Crit IS broken. But that's because CRITS are broken, not Talon.

Sincerely, Aygo

Desiderium3 votes

Very well said, friend. Thank you.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

I hope reworked talon would do lots of situational aoe dmg but less singletarget dmg compared to assassins (mainly zed and kha)

WarlockLaw1 votes

He is plenty distinct enough from every other assassin because he doesn't have a reliable way out. Unless he is really far ahead he needs both his e and his ult to 100-0 somebody at which point he has no ult for a minute and his e has like 7 seconds down time to be killed during. He is a suicide bomber that dumps everything on one person, with a decent amount of aoe damage for the others and then has to try and run away before getting collapsed on. Most other assassins have a jump/dash/blink to get out after they kill their target. Even Kat can at least ward jump out. Fizz has lower cdr dashes and access to zhonyas. Zed has 2 repositions. LeBlanc has a dash coupled with a blink that she can copy with ult. Khalid has his reset. Akali has resets. Ekko can ult out for a heal. Meanwhile talon uses his reliable escape to kill

ItemsGuy1 votes

{quoted}

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

Right now, he stands as a bit of a problem through virtue of being an assassin tuned for being an assassin (ie. he can jump on a squishy and delete them without breaking his stride), yet most of his damage output is AoE (Rake and Ult)--effectively making him an assassin that kills your carry while bursting the rest of your team down because they happened to be nearby.

I think a good step in the right direction could be to turn his AoE from an AoE assassin tool, to something that actively inhibits his assassination power if he's trying to take on a big cluster of enemies. For example, giving Q and R the treatment Gragas's old dash had, where the damage is evenly split among all units hit, or having Q function similarly to Zed's Q (dealing greatly reduced damage to enemies beyond the first), having blades from Q and R only deal damage once on the way out and once on the way back. Honestly, anything that gives him some interesting weaknesses to allow for equally interesting strengths rather than the whole "either he bursts you alone, or you and your entire team" situation he has now.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Distinct in what way? How do you feel about the current state of assassins?

ExecutorDill1 votes

Like my Shenpai Shen :3 I hope riot succeeds at making him more interesting and hopefully more complex and less binary and brainless. Like Talon I love all martial artist inspired male champs like zed, yasuo, lee sin and Zed.

Swollwonder1 votes

As much as I hate to say it, he does lack counter play. However, I don't believe that means hes unbalanced. If he goes into a teamfight he either finishes the stragglers or dies. He seems pretty balanced as far as assassins.

Please don't take my making people explode guy away QnQ

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

OK WTF, Jesus stop deleting my comment. Your Mod's on the Boards are children.

And yes I do believe, Others should be focused first but a little work on the Side for talon wouldn't hurt.

forist2 votes

{quoted}

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

If you ever do rework him, please don't follow fiora's example. I want to be able to play this champ in draft.

RoakOriginal1 votes

for example any other assassin but yasuo and zed, since those 2 are the only ones usable... (and yi thx to devourer.. not counting ahri, since she is ap and she can do pretty much everything)

Azirious Mistake2 votes

{quoted}

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/FAEwxu0u-talon-passive-and-e-idea-target-designation-assignment

I actually found a thread a week or 2 ago suggesting a new passive for Talon, is there any way you could look into this a bit? (not mine)

Garbageteammates1 votes

{quoted}

We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he's not a rework priority.

he is already at a 0.04% pick rate? lets make it to a 0.01%

SexySoapTurtle7 votes

Can we focus on taric and poppy before we start reworking anymore champs please?

Chespin20131 votes

Yorick Warwick uh hello

SexySoapTurtle1 votes

{quoted}

Yorick Warwick uh hello

Too bad those arent coming before taric and poppy

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

I would really want to see talon with a kit more like assassins creed where you can gtfo when you get a kill. His kit is currently really kamikaze, and because of that i believe power is extremelly shifted towards a bad direction for talon

Bronzoid2 votes

Rengar

has less counterplay, is much more broken and isn't about to get nerfed/reworked

Shroom Junkie1 votes

He's an assassin with a fuckload of AOE. Big aoe at that. Of course he'll get nerfs. But as of right now he can still burst at least a single person and with the damage his ult and rake do he can cut down a team like Washington and his apple tree.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

That has literally nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Read the Post please before commenting.

Jolyne Cujoh1 votes

Counter play would be amazing against him, especially something that works easily for squishy midlane mages. Talon against a mage in lane is almost a guaranteed loss unless he makes a bunch of consistent mistakes Dont even get me started on playing against him as Syndra cause that shits impossible

Countermander3 votes

I doubt that a little.... In Korea here we see Syndra as a counter to Talon due to her strong harrass and poke, with stun and high burst ult. All u would need is to build Seeker armguard first and ur set. and save ur stuns.

i love ur name

Sincerely Aygo

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