About Lee Sin

GlockHammer·Jan 11, 2016·13 votes·986 views

Won't complain about him being OP as that will only fall on deaf ears anyway. But can we look to take something away from his Jungle game? Something? More specifically, his clearing times.

I don't see why Lee Sin, considering all the stuff he packs in his kit, also needs to have clearing times that are on par with Yi or Shyv. These two need to farm to gain any kind of effectiveness, Lee is already the king of ganking and has been forever.

Thanks to the new items and all the new gimmicks that have been added to his ult there is no scaling off, not even at endgame, the Lee who needed to close the game before 35 minutes has long been gone, haven't seen him since before season 4.

So can we look to find some kind of way of bringing this champion in line? Because honestly, he's just riddiculous at the moment.

36 Comments

alasarcherJan 11, 20169 votes

Well in my opinion Lee (after all nerfs he received) is one of few very balanced champions (beside Vi) in game atm. His clear speed isnt very high or very low. Requires ALOT of skill to be effective in higher elo (lets not talk about low elo, even Soraka jungle can dominate in Silver/Bronze). Also, he is very easy to predict, you know he is gonna Q, ward jump and kick somoene into his team. You can bait him easily knowing that tactic- have done it many many times. His ganks are shit if you ward properly. His main ability is slow skillshot that can easily be dodged. He scales poorly into late game. Yes, yes i know if he kicks 4k hp mundo into his stacked team, he can deal tons of damage. But, think about it, if you position properly and dont stack on each other, he will just waste his ultimate (his ulti doesnt do bonus damage to whoever he kicked). And how often will Lee truly kick tank offensively? He will always try to kick high priority target. He has decent escape mechanism with his ward jump (and yes he was op with that before, when ward jumping gave him shield,but not anymore), but hey, he aint only champ with dashes... Ye i know, he has high base damage and his abilities scale well with AD. But u cant really get away with building full AD if u gonna be jumping into enemy team, so its fine. And i know people say "he doesnt use mana". To be effective, Lee has to auto twice after every ability to regain energy back.

Reason why even after all his nerfs, he is still popular, isnt because he is OP. Its because he is fun to play. And everyone hopes one day, they will manage to do that one perfect Insec kick. They can nerf his stats as much as they want, people will still play him, because simply ,he is fun.

GlockHammerJan 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well in my opinion Lee (after all nerfs he received) is one of few very balanced champions (beside Vi) in game atm. His clear speed isnt very high or very low. Requires ALOT of skill to be effective in higher elo (lets not talk about low elo, even Soraka jungle can dominate in Silver/Bronze). Also, he is very easy to predict, you know he is gonna Q, ward jump and kick somoene into his team. You can bait him easily knowing that tactic- have done it many many times. His ganks are shit if you ward properly. His main ability is slow skillshot that can easily be dodged. He scales poorly into late game. Yes, yes i know if he kicks 4k hp mundo into his stacked team, he can deal tons of damage. But, think about it, if you position properly and dont stack on each other, he will just waste his ultimate (his ulti doesnt do bonus damage to whoever he kicked). And how often will Lee truly kick tank offensively? He will always try to kick high priority target. He has decent escape mechanism with his ward jump (and yes he was op with that before, when ward jumping gave him shield,but not anymore), but hey, he aint only champ with dashes... Ye i know, he has high base damage and his abilities scale well with AD. But u cant really get away with building full AD if u gonna be jumping into enemy team, so its fine. And i know people say "he doesnt use mana". To be effective, Lee has to auto twice after every ability to regain energy back.

Reason why even after all his nerfs, he is still popular, isnt because he is OP. Its because he is fun to play. And everyone hopes one day, they will manage to do that one perfect Insec kick. They can nerf his stats as much as they want, people will still play him, because simply ,he is fun.

What a load of jibberish.

alasarcherJan 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

What a load of jibberish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well in my opinion Lee (after all nerfs he received)

What nerfs? you mean love taps? the last changes he received were buffs even.... and his nerfs were some of the smallest nerfs in the history of LoL (Compare to, say Gangplank Kassadin Irelia Janna Rumble Taric Sona Evelynn etc.)

DorkunedAurasJan 11, 20163 votes

Removal of his AS slow ruined his late game teamfighting (assuming he's not insecing), as he can't jump on the enemy ADC and half their dps.

Removing his shield on ward hop means he sacrifices something for ward hopping, as he won't have a shield to block anything that hits him after the hop.

These are real things.

alasarcherJan 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG70RLuQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-01-11T18:35:55.946+0000)

What nerfs? you mean love taps? the last changes he received were buffs even.... and his nerfs were some of the smallest nerfs in the history of LoL (Compare to, say etc.)

Well he used to reduce attack speed of enemies last season. That was huge nerf. His shield duration got halved. His armor got lowered multiple times. His W CD got increased. Doesnt get shield anymore if uses W on ward or minion.

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well he used to reduce attack speed of enemies last season.

That was two seasons ago. It was also a very small nerf compared to, say Kassadin 's nerfs to his ult or Sona nerfs across the board.

His shield duration got halved. His armor got lowered multiple times.

Love taps.

Doesnt get shield anymore if uses W on ward or minion.

That was straight-up broken and was correctly balanced. To call those nerfs would be akin to calling release Leb changes "Nerfs".

Itadaki SeiekiJan 11, 20161 votes

TBH, you're wrong.

Soraka Jungle can't do crap if the enemy jungler is competent. All it takes is to tell them, " Hey Soraka Jungle only has one damage spell, you should ward and counterjungle her until she's useless. "

DorkunedAurasJan 12, 20161 votes

to be fair, that damage spell is on a low CD, and her E does do damage, granted that damage is not high. Still, I've seen a raka jungle and the enemy jungler, being low Elo, didn't kill them in their jungle, resulting in scary later.

VesarixxJan 11, 20168 votes

If a Lee and a Shyv are clearing at the same speed the Shyv is doing something wrong

KaiokoJan 11, 20164 votes

^This Lee Sin has terrible clearing times.

VesarixxJan 11, 20165 votes

Lee sin has decent clears, but Shyv has one of, if not the fastest clear

GlockHammerJan 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG70RLuQ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T17:14:48.804+0000)

Lee sin has decent clears, but Shyv has one of, if not the fastest clear

Actually, careful management of his Q allows Lee Sin to clear in total alot faster than you'd think because he can shave down on a large ammount of travel time simply by Qing between camps. Shyvana clears camps faster, but not that very much faster. If you're looking for a uber fast jungle clearer, Yi is your man, he's more or less in a class of his own.

As for Lee, his clears are not decent, they are good, at the least. He is one of the strongest counterjunglers. One of the strongest gankers. Has superb early game power. Perhaps THE saftest jungler, thanks to the nature of his kit. Does no longer fall off, as he actually did in earlier seasons, I don't know why people keep claiming that.

I mean, how many titles can you give a guy? Something has to freaking go.

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Actually, careful management of his Q allows Lee Sin to clear in total alot faster than you'd think because he can shave down on a large ammount of travel time simply by Qing between camps. Shyvana clears camps faster, but not that very much faster.

This.

It should also be noted that Lee Sin has multiple forms of built-in sustain (Shield, Life steal, Spell vamp, etc.) whereas Shyvana has none. Add to that the extreme ease of mobility Lee has and the clear speed is near on-par.

Lee Sin has been in dire need of nerfing for quite some time now.

VesarixxJan 11, 20164 votes

Does no longer fall off, as he actually did in earlier seasons, I don't know why people keep claiming that.

When people say that Lee Sin falls off late they aren't talking about his damage, he scales pretty well in that department, but when the game transitions to 5v5 team fights it is a lot harder for Lee to actually get that damage off without being blown up, if you can pull off those insec kicks he can fulfill a utility role. He has a kit that works out a lot better in skirmishes than full on team fights.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG70RLuQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-11T17:07:52.552+0000)

If a Lee and a Shyv are clearing at the same speed the Shyv is doing something wrong

shyv has the best clearing times in the game. i didn't play lee sin but shyvana clearing is just ungodly.

SaiannaJan 11, 20164 votes

Riot only knows how to buff LeeC$in...

hopeful4Jan 11, 20164 votes

You realize that both of those outscale Lee? Along with a dozen of other junglers?

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You realize that both of those outscale Lee? Along with a dozen of other junglers?

Actually the numbers have been crunched by people that are better than me at math and it has been determined that Lee Sin's values scale better than like >90% of the cast. Only hyper scalers (Nasus, Vayne, Fiora, etc.) cleanly outscale Lee.

Lee's scaling being bad is one of the great, perpetuated myths of League.

DorkunedAurasJan 11, 20162 votes

Mathematically, lee scales insanely well. Functionally, he can't use it late game unless the enemy team has no CC, are idiots, or lee is intensely fed.

This is the difference between theory and practice.

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Mathematically, lee scales insanely well.

Exactly. You got slammed.

This is the difference

Except you are stacking the deck against Lee, placing his scaling against "The enemy team" rather than Lee plus his team against the enemy team, that's what we call a "Fallacy". Yes the enemy team may have disables but so will Lee's team, thus nullifying whatever BS disadvantage you are trying to leverage against this overpowered character.

That's like arguing "Well, the enemy team might have Morgana so because of Black Shield, Fiddle's (Old) three second fear is balanced!". Bad argument, this is you.

DorkunedAurasJan 11, 20161 votes

At the same time, if lee wants to use his AD ratios, he has to be squishy. At the same time, if he wants to use his ratios, he has to go in. Any CC at all will make him stop and explode as fast as a yi if he is to take advantage of those "OP" ratios. Sure, if his team has a bunch of AoE CC that'll let him go in, he'll be scary, but so will so many other champions. Lee Sin's nature is incredibly vulnerable to being stopped. That's why you never see a full AD lee, it's unsustainable.

Dominick DestineJan 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

At the same time, if lee wants to use his AD ratios, he has to be squishy.

Hey, you know who else has that problem? every other champion in the game.

Guardian angel or more damage?

Abyssal Scepter or Void Staff?

etc.

Lee is overpowered, your argument is nonsense.

DorkunedAurasJan 12, 20161 votes

Most Champions can do their damage with some measure of range or safety, so they can afford to be squishy. Lee cannot, as he HAS to go in, and will explode if squishy. He does not have the defensive mechanics like untargettability or something to keep him alive in a fight.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Most Champions can do their damage with some measure of range or safety

False. Only long range mages and some ADC some of the time.

In fact, Lee is one of the safest melee characters since he can get out of combat/bad situations far more effectively/easily than say... Skarner, Xin Zhao, Trundle or pretty much all melees except maybe Fizz. Your own argument works against you.

JefftiffyJan 12, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG70RLuQ,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T02:41:36.981+0000)

False. Only long range mages and some ADC some of the time.

In fact, Lee is one of the safest melee characters since he can get out of combat/bad situations far more effectively/easily than say... Skarner, Xin Zhao, Trundle or pretty much all melees except maybe Fizz. Your own argument works against you.

Except the thing is most people who go in and stay in have massive steroids. Xin has a massive AS steroid, a heal, displacement, armor and MR buff, and a knock up. Trundle steals people's stats and uses it against them and reduces the enemies. Skarner can force you to go places you don't want to as well as doesn't die (one of the original juggernauts). Don't compare a fighter to a tank also. Skarner is a tank, not a fighter.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except the thing is most people who go in and stay in have massive steroids.

Oh you mean like increased attack speed? on-demand no-fail stun? execute dash on low CD? armor? spell vamp? lifesteal? manaless? high base stats? I wonder who has all of these things in a single overpowered kit , hmmmm LeeSin

Skarner can force you to go places you don't want to

Except Lee can do the same thing, on lower cooldown, with higher AoE , multi stun damage.

Utter fail.

JefftiffyJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG70RLuQ,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T03:31:57.658+0000)

Oh you mean like increased attack speed? on-demand no-fail stun? execute dash on low CD? armor? spell vamp? lifesteal? manaless? high base stats? I wonder who has all of these things in a single overpowered kit , hmmmm

Except Lee can do the same thing, on lower cooldown, with higher AoE , multi stun damage.

Utter fail.

Xin's full rotation is on a lower CD's than lee's and puts out similar damage as well as offering his team more utility. Skarners is about the same as Xin's. Lee has no controller over where you go if you plan around his kick at all times, Skarner does. Lee doesn't have a stun, he has a mini root to make sure you don't run out of ult range and make the ability bug out. Lee does not have that great of armor and his hp regen got dumpstered because of his innate sustain on W. The one upside Lee has over Xin is manaless.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Xin

Does not have multiple low cooldown dashes to blind targets/wards/etc. Does not have a high damage, on-demand stun/potential AoE stun. Lee has built-in sustain (Lifesteal AND Spell vamp). Lee is manaless, Xin is not.

The only advantage Xin has is that he has higher damage, assuming Lee has everything on cooldown. Xin is bottom tier, Lee is overpowered... or to put it in other terms; Lee has 3 escape mechanisms on low cooldown , MANALESS.

Xin has a ... somewhat of a defensive mechanism in his ult, which is heavily situational and has a long cooldown, also requiring mana. It's no contest.

DorkunedAurasJan 12, 20161 votes

Just ignore this guy. He's not here to discuss, he's here to spread his salt. Just let him wallow in salt, it's not good to taste it.

chipndip1Jan 11, 20163 votes

Uh...Lee still falls off late-game. That hasn't changed...

Only thing is that he has something to keep himself relevant if he can play the bowling mini-game right (hit the tank into all of his back-line! :D)

TerntJan 11, 20162 votes

Lee is steady almost the entire game. 100-0 a squishy is common for about 50 other champions in the game now. Yi goes 1v5 unkillable late game, and Shyvana has the ability to do the same. Lee can't alpha and dodge abilities either. I wish people would stop bitching and just try playing him. There's certain champions that don't seem difficult to play in my eyes that actually are harder than I expected like Yasuo. So please, just buy Lee Sin and try him for 10 games and then post how shitty your OP scores were.

SummonerSquidJan 11, 20162 votes

Shyvana has a faster clear time than LeeSin . Shyvana and MasterYi are both scaling junglers and can clear the jungle faster in later clears than LeeSin . Shyvana and aren't meta junglers and aren't terribly good at jungling in general. Some people use Shyvana in the jungle ONLY because of item 3931 .

Out of the meta junglers ( LeeSin Kindred DrMundo RekSai Nidalee Elise ), LeeSin has the worst clear, possibly second worst next to RekSai .

Watch a streamer clear the jungle as LeeSin vs any other meta jungler.

JefftiffyJan 12, 20162 votes

The amount of bias on those ripping on Lee is utterly stupid in this thread. Ofc Lee falls off in the late game. His damage and utility are mostly single target and low CC. Someone who scales into late game gets more of a presence when large groups are present like the ADCs and people like Azir , Orianna , and Veigar . They all excel at doing damage or CCing groups and not just trying to stick to a single target. Lee falls off due to his inability to get the carry of a decent team comp. If you have no CC to stop him or don't have enough damage it's your team's fault at all stages of the game, from champ select to the point you are in. Losing an massive AS slow is a huge nerf, look at what would happen to Nasus if they removed it off his wither.

He is very average and picked for that reason. He has mobility, he has damage, he has utility, but he is not the best at any of those.

PartholonianJan 11, 20161 votes

He is ninja nerfed in the leaked patch notes. Spell vamp doesn't affect Smite anymore -- Lee is one of a few champs that has spell vamp in his kit, i.e. from his first clear onward.

ViashinoWizardJan 12, 20161 votes

Lee already has one of the lower winrates among junglers at all elos. He doesn't really need nerfs at the moment.