Cinderhulk gets vastly outscaled by every other jungler item.

GlockHammer·3/20/2016, 11:28:38 PM·89 votes·5,386 views

Can we please try to find someway to make this item good?

Every single tank jungler is taking echoes instead becuase getting it and going straight tank/bruiser gives them a damage buff, improved clear speed and mobility that cinderhulk just can't compete with, I'm literally having more success building echoes on volibear than I had building cinderhulk on him, that's how utterly low tier Cinderhulk is at the moment.

Give the Hulk some love!

110 Comments

BastionKross3/21/2016, 2:50:45 AM54 votes

Riot hates Cinderhulk.

It debuted, made a handful of tanks OP while making the rest viable, and introduced League to the tank meta; one of the most diverse and fair metas we've had in years. Riot then proceeded to nerf the OP tanks, then Cinderhulk, then buffed anti-tank champions like Vayne and Lee just in time for Worlds.

Then afterwards, the first role that gets a complete overhaul to be more effective is the marksman role. The same role whose job it is to kill tanks.

Then Fiora got %HP true damage out the wazoo for seemingly no reason.

I think the message from Riot is loud and clear. Don't be a tank, grab a Titanic Hydra and a Sterak's Gage and be a bruiser instead. Cinderhulk makes tanks, not bruisers, so it has to be punished for it's crimes.

Zane Zephyr3/20/2016, 11:58:27 PM12 votes

My idea for it is that instead of the damage scaling per level, make it so it gets one bonus damage per 100 max HP that you have. I think that would at least make it a little bit better later in the game so you can at least do some damage to people that stick by you, but it's not completely over the top OP.

Frius3/21/2016, 12:44:53 AM11 votes

warrior doesnt even scale ,so warrior must be improved too. atleast cinderhulk has 15% health increase warrior bought ,warrior stays ,warrior sold.

still ye,runic on everything tank ap now ,even zac, sej ,gragas ,malph devourer is the most cost efficienta nd warrior stays same for all game.

Count Zubat3/21/2016, 7:23:08 AM6 votes

I just don't get why Riot changed the % health bonus from 25% to 15% in one of the patches. It was long after Cinderhulk meta ended. This change killed the item for me.

TTK Dreadnought3/21/2016, 12:11:41 AM5 votes

will agree. just did a game as nautilus jg and decided to do cinderhulk. yea, didnt do very well. going back to echos

OyddAWqJ5r3/21/2016, 8:55:34 AM4 votes

The funny part is that it sucks in the early game too lmao.

Saphixia3/21/2016, 8:31:48 AM3 votes

Nunu Malphite :http://i.imgur.com/S4Ua8MH.gif

GigaPube3/21/2016, 4:54:19 PM3 votes

the cinderhulk nerfs were a lot like the kassadin nerfs. they chipped a little power off every patch then they finally just flat out nerfed kass's ult range and took nearly half the percent bonus health off that cinderhulk gives. 6 years of balancing and making mord an adc and riot still have absolutely no clue wtf they're doing and what they truly want...

Asyde3/21/2016, 5:00:00 PM3 votes

I totally agree, Cinderhulk's % scaling isn't enough to make it a viable choice vs any other jungle item.

15% sounds like a lot, and it can be, but since it's only off BONUS HP not base or total hp it's not nearly enough.

Let's look at how Cinderhulk compares to other items: **Cinderhulk: ** 400hp +15% bonus hp (460 effective hp). 10% lifesteal vs monsters (not champs), 150% mana regen in jungle, and 15 + (.06/level) aura.

Sunfire Cape: 500hp + 50 armor **(750 effective hp) **25 + level aura, larger range, and 150% damage to minions and monsters.

Deadman's Plate: 500hp + 50 armor (750 effective hp), increased movement speed and damage upon stacks

**Randuin's Omen: ** 500hp + 60 armor (800 effective hp), -10% damage from crits, passive attack speed slow, active movement speed slow.

item 3009 item 1401 item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 item 3025

Let's assume you have all of these items together in one build with boots and one other damage/tank item (common). That would be a total of 1900 bonus hp. That means that Cinderhulk's 15% would be providing an extra 285hp making it's total effective hp 685 (still less than every other tank item) and provides no armor or magic resist, and passives that have no real effect on objectives or in team fights (other than active smite). It would take a minimum of 2500 BONUS hp in order to bring Cinderhulk's tank effectiveness (effective hp) up to part with ANY of the other tank items.

Granted, it DOES make you tankier in the early game than going for devourer, warrior, or runic, but if you sub out Cinderhulk for a damage item, your early ganks will be stronger, and that frees up your #6 slot for a true tank item, making you do significantly more damage, and significantly more tanky than any build that includes cinderhulk in the late game.

In order to be considered a viable choice, or equivalent to any other tank item, Cinderhulk needs one of the following: 30-40 armor, or 30-40 magic resist, 100 extra base HP, or 20% scaling hp. Even with any of these changes, it wouldn't be as effective as any of the others unless in a full build situation where the scaling really kicks in.

TurquoiseYoshi3/21/2016, 7:31:28 PM2 votes

The title is completely wrong since it outscales both RE and Warrior, but your point that Cinderhulk is weak right now is somewhat correct.

IceKingChernobog3/22/2016, 7:32:45 AM1 votes

Is runic echo's worth getting on volibear jungle?

N30NP4NDA3/21/2016, 8:23:05 AM1 votes

DAMAGE BASED ON MAX HP!!!! (pls no)

Chuck Charles3/22/2016, 4:26:54 PM1 votes

yeah cinderhulk feels bad right now. they nerfed it into the ground because it was for the longest time flat out busted. I think the issue is that it doesn't help with clears enough now in a meta where games are so fast paced. last season was ok because you had mid laners who could wave clear and death timers weren't so bad. tanks didnt need to clear faster. now they do. especially with good gankers having really good clears.

Jbels3/21/2016, 12:15:20 AM1 votes

[deleted]

bistroh3/21/2016, 8:41:44 PM1 votes

Rammus okay.

LithiumWednesday3/21/2016, 9:56:52 PM1 votes

item 1400 ? As far as I can tell, Udyr is the only "tank" who actually benefited seriously from RE, and that's just because he benefits from basically everything.