@Riot, I think you should take this seriously

AquariusGine·Apr 16, 2018·56 votes·14,839 views

I don't want League to die :(

I know it's not gonna die any time soon but you are in dangerous territory and alienating a lot of players. Please don't make the same mistakes Runescape did.

82 Comments

A NunuApr 16, 201844 votes

They won't take it seriously. It's just fact. They've shown that they're focused on their own path more than the ones that the community actually wants. Too many players and content creators have left the game out of pure frustration out of Riot's incompetence to properly address and deal with issues, where Riot not responding only shows their point to be true.

http://www.auplod.com/u/lapuoda6bee.png

TheHappyReaperzApr 17, 20181 votes

They've shown that they're focused on their own path more than the ones that the community actually wants.

This is the problem. There are multiple paths Riot can take with the game, and regardless of which path they take, there will be people who wanted them to take a different path. The community is way too divided on everything for Riot to make the game good for everyone. In this situation, I would argue its best for Riot to follow their own path. Will they alienate some players? Sure, but if they keep jumping from path to path, they will have something similar to the Sonic franchise, where the creators wanted to make everyone happy, and thus none were happy, running the franchise into the ground.

chipndip1Apr 17, 20181 votes

If I may: Sonic had an issue with losing his identity after Sonic Adventure 2. Heroes managed to be decent, but then Sonic Team had no idea what to do with that graphics engine, let alone what they could do with Sonic to create a decent game since they were making so many duds back to back. They tried being edgy, they tried being...werewolves...I guess? They tried being motion controls, as well. Fans were divided, but Sonic Team was fucking baffled as to what they should do next, regardless, so they ended up copying Mario a few times and fucked that up, too.

Just adding some more to the Sonic thing. I used to dabble in a good deal of Sonic's games back in grade school.

A NunuApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is the problem. There are multiple paths Riot can take with the game, and regardless of which path they take, there will be people who wanted them to take a different path. The community is way too divided on everything for Riot to make the game good for everyone. In this situation, I would argue its best for Riot to follow their own path. Will they alienate some players? Sure, but if they keep jumping from path to path, they will have something similar to the Sonic franchise, where the creators wanted to make everyone happy, and thus none were happy, running the franchise into the ground.

That's a fair point, but I'm going to have to disagree. There's always a path that's objectively better for the game, and one that is worse for the game. Right now, there is an obvious path (or at least a clear idea of a path) that the community wants for the game, and what they definitely don't want. Riot is taking the one almost nobody wants, which is why I believe they should listen to the community at this time.

I'm not asking Riot to be perfect, or find a way to make EVERY player happy, but I am asking Riot to at least properly address issues or take a path that a majority of the community wants.

http://www.auplod.com/u/lapuoda6bee.png

TheHappyReaperzApr 18, 20181 votes

While I feel that there are paths that are objectively worse for the game, it is much harder to say something is objectively better for the game. For example, an idea I see bounced around here pretty often is Riot nerfing damage, just across the board. For some people, that is an objectively good change. However, it is my opinion that such a change would just bring about a tank meta, assassins would become more garbage the instant they fell behind, and ADC's would become even more necessary, which would make the game worse. I do not think you could tell me a single path for this game, that I could fail to find flaw that makes it bad for the game. I may agree with that path, but that does not mean the path is good for the game.

Tomoe GozenApr 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Nunu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEch32bb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-16T22:44:18.799+0000)

They won't take it seriously. It's just fact. They've shown that they're focused on their own path more than the ones that the community actually wants. Too many players and content creators have left the game out of pure frustration out of Riot's incompetence to properly address and deal with issues, where Riot not responding only shows their point to be true.

http://www.auplod.com/u/lapuoda6bee.png

Are you really that disconnected from actual discussions Riot's having with us or is this intentional ignorance? Are you checking Surrender at 20 regularly to catch up? Maybe up to speed for PBE changes and early exploratory work on various things regarding game balance?

Because it does sound like you are living in your own world and believing in what you want.

A NunuApr 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEch32bb,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2018-04-18T14:23:45.633+0000)

Are you really that disconnected from actual discussions Riot's having with us or is this intentional ignorance? Are you checking Surrender at 20 regularly to catch up? Maybe up to speed for PBE changes and early exploratory work on various things regarding game balance?

Because it does sound like you are living in your own world and believing in what you want.

"Oh hey, yeah, that problem exists" and "Yeah, we know this thing is a problem" but then still not actually doing anything about the problems multiple months later (sometimes even making things worse), and instead focusing their attention on random shit the player base doesn't want at all makes all of Riot's past discussions completely pointless. I honestly have zero god damn clue how you and others didn't realize this. Unless you're going to give me some reason other than "Oh at least it's something" (which is a terrible argument I see from your group of people a lot), I don't feel like I want to waste any of my energy responding to another one of your comments if you reply to me. I'm just tired of seeing the exact same awfully flawed arguments over and over again.

Also, about you and the PBE... The PBE is not a very good place to take information from in the first place, and even then, whenever a real problem like Zoe, Nunu buffs, Janna buffs, etc. and are unanimously agreed upon to be extremely unhealthy for the game, it is almost completely guaranteed Riot won't even bother listening. It's more of a bug testing ground than a balance testing place. This also makes the information that we get from S@20 completely useless other than just planning for an individual's planning and practicing for the future.

I feel like you're actually the one that's living in your own world, thinking that anything positive will outweigh an infinite amount of negatives, or you're just not realizing that what we're getting really isn't worth that much.

http://www.auplod.com/u/lapuoda6bee.png

Tomoe GozenApr 19, 20181 votes

Ah, now i see the error of my ways. The only changes ever worth exploring are the changes THE COMMUNITY says they are, not what Riot backs up with the data from thousands/millions of matches. Because hanging League's balance on opinions of emotionally unstable children who can't even start a discussion without trying to insult someone, is what this game needs in order to be better.

Riot isn't infallible, even when they have a good reason to change something. But if that's the case even with proper data in mind, imagine just how much an average emotionally unstable child here, is wrong. On many, many occasions.

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day" - is the phrase. This means that if you throw millions of opinions here, eventually you're get a few right by sheer luck. But that suddenly doesn't give you the necessary skills and knowledge about League's balance nor insight into actual data that's being used to make changes to problem areas.

There have been numerous times when Riot did pull PBE changes back for a cycle or two to work on them some more, due to feedback. SKT skins (with Azir), Chromas and Swain chromas were pulled back for the same reason (just at the top of my head). Lee Sin work and Riven's Edge mechanic was pulled back because of the feedback. Sometimes Riot even intentionally goes overboard on certain changes IN ORDER to understand just how much is too much. These changes don't usually see the light of day. But sure, let's generalize over the fact that PBE is mostly for bug testing and say that Riot never pulls back anything that's on PBE.

Because that's just easier to claim instead of remembering the times when they did. Exceptions wouldn't fit the narrative such as yours so we simply ignore it.

I feel like you're actually the one that's living in your own world, thinking that anything positive will outweigh an infinite amount of negatives.

Everything Riot does has a positive and a negative side. That's just how it is. Given that our community isn't a hivemind, someone somewhere is going to/not going to take an issue about a rework, skin, balance change, LCS, meta, etc. The problem is a paradoxical one: people want League to change and yet when it does, they don't want to change.

Riot's currently on the right track. Whether you think this is overdue, isn't what's being discussed currently.

WeisestApr 18, 20181 votes

Until this company hires long time challenger players to make their patches and make champion designs that are good they will always fail the good hearten League of Legends Community.

Tomoe GozenApr 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Time to Aquiest,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEch32bb,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-04-18T17:46:34.219+0000)

Until this company hires long time challenger players to make their patches and make champion designs that are good they will always fail the good hearten League of Legends Community.

And here i thought that the community said that they don't want League balanced according to LCS trends. High ELO players are are a small percentile as well and what works for them, doesn't work for us in most cases. You don't have to be a highly ranked player in order to know how to balance League. You only need the right data and to interpret it correctly.

You don't have that data so whatever your opinion on League currently is, is just an opinion. I don't have the right data either so whatever i say is also just an opinion, even if it's opposite of yours.

The Bad TouchApr 17, 201825 votes

2009-2015.

Game has been a zombie shell of it's former self since season 6 started.

JaxMoonStealerApr 17, 20182 votes

2009-2013*

Season 5 was bad with the terrible Juggernaut update. Season 4 was okay, but not as fun as 2 and 3.

AMYS GRAVEApr 17, 20185 votes

Season 5 was pretty ok until the juggernaut update though.

Also 2013 was season 3.

Magic SphincterApr 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEch32bb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-17T03:34:23.706+0000)

2009-2015.

Game has been a zombie shell of it's former self since season 6 started.

This right here. I cry every time. Soraka

BroLaneApr 17, 201815 votes

How did they manage to piss off Gbay so bad that he's starting to become Hashinshin?

Gamer GalladeApr 17, 20183 votes

He broke down a few months back and it was nasty.

a side from that when it comes to some of his rants, its well justified to a lesser degree.

On the other hand, Hes a super cocky top laner that is stuck in low diamond and never reflects why he is hard stuck there in that elo.

In the end, I like Gbay but i really hate his extremely cocky attitude when it comes to how he plays the game.

AMYS GRAVEApr 17, 20181 votes

Did he break down in a particular video? link? I don't really follow him.

ThunderSkelettApr 17, 20183 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu4Xy7oMsG4

Thee Pie ManApr 17, 20183 votes

That's... really sad. Not that HE'S sad as a person but like, that he got like that from a game. He's so level headed normally it's just..incredibly eyeopening for the problems happening in League. I'm not saying that "OH YEAH- I never see any of the threads being made around here!" It's just I've actually watched GB for years and then stopped because I decided I wanted to get better and play the game. My goodness, I feel really sorry for the dude and other players who feel like disappointments because of losing streaks and etc. =/

Harden StepbackApr 17, 20189 votes

games been dead

LVL99 Helper TKApr 17, 20187 votes

It feels like Riot hates LoL players with a passion, and they just really want to torture us into quitting for good.

chipndip1Apr 17, 20186 votes

You're really gonna take this seriously when he just made this big old vid on how he's upset over Irelia being made into a team fighter when he ALSO made a vid about how non-tank top laners get relegated to split pushing because they can't do anything else? He literally made this vid out of frustration over not being as strong in lane anymore. Not saying he's wrong, but if the major bot lane changes are coming in the mid season, then Idk what you guys want Riot to do right now.

3TWarriorApr 17, 20186 votes

perhaps disclose hints of what they intend to do?

perhaps keep a list that shows the current priorities of their game development?

perhaps not adjust their plans midway and leave the game in a bad state with a hastily thought out compromise so that they can use the least amount of money for a problem?

they gave us the marksman update years ago as a "balance update" to make sure that what is currently the problem wouldn't happen. And then, we got what is currently the problem despite that being what we wanted them to fix

chipndip1Apr 17, 20184 votes

{quoted}

perhaps disclose hints of what they intend to do?

They have.

perhaps keep a list that shows the current priorities of their game development?

They occasionally drop in to talk about what they're prioritizing, what they have interest in doing in the future, if something's been dropped, and so on.

perhaps not adjust their plans midway and leave the game in a bad state with a hastily thought out compromise so that they can use the least amount of money for a problem?

How did they do this in the first place?

they gave us the marksman update years ago as a "balance update" to make sure that what is currently the problem wouldn't happen. And then, we got what is currently the problem despite that being what we wanted them to fix

No, the marksman update was to DIVERSIFY MARKSMEN, not to weaken them, diversify bot lane in relation to the whole roster, or increase carrying potential of mid/top lane.

So you're just wrong on every facet of your post.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 17, 20183 votes

And they removed carry potential of mid and top. Great fuckin job.

chipndip1Apr 17, 20181 votes

That started in season 5 because people were tired of one person stomping their lane and auto-winning because they happened to be Riven or Katarina or whatever. Riot changed the game to be more team-based because people were tired of random solo lanes losing costing them the whole game.

We're now seeing the reverse of that and acting as if community outcry didn't land us here in the first place.

AMYS GRAVEApr 17, 20183 votes

Riot changed the game to be more team-based because people were tired of random solo lanes losing costing them the whole game.

Now we can predict which lane will lose us the game. (hint: its bot)

chipndip1Apr 17, 20181 votes

Bot lane's just the consistent carry role. In a game with a ton of options between healers/shielders, tanks, anti-carries, burst-oriented classes, and so on, bot lane always has a carry in it. Even if we put a mage in the bot lane, if that mage is capable of DPS (Cass, Azir, Kayle as examples), bot lane's still going to feel like the most likely lane to carry from since it always has a carry in it. If you're complaining about bot lane being important, that's just the wrong complaint to have.

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20181 votes

That's true, but claiming that's what the community wanted when we had problems with the game before the changes that brought us to this meta is a complete strawman of the complaints of the time. The complaints of season 5 were largely centered around game pacing and snowballing and those problems have only been built upon, only the offenders that those complaints are based on have changed.

chipndip1Apr 18, 20181 votes

Single-man snowballing WAS reduced. The issue is that it was replaced by team-wide snowballing. That type of thing isn't necessarily intended, though.

Game pace was too slow, then too fast, but pace seems to be going to a good place now...finally...

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20181 votes

I mean, promoting team play was practically their stated goals with the changes, and team snowballing mechanics were directly added so i dare say it was intended.

Game pacing has been through the ringer over the years for sure, but its been too fast since before patch 5.22 imo. Right now i would say that game length is ok, but the rate at which games are decided is not. This is of course more opinion than much else but ya know.

chipndip1Apr 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, promoting team play was practically their stated goals with the changes, and team snowballing mechanics were directly added so i dare say it was intended.

Not to this degree.

Game pacing has been through the ringer over the years for sure, but its been too fast since before patch 5.22 imo. Right now i would say that game length is ok, but the rate at which games are decided is not. This is of course more opinion than much else but ya know.

I like how the game is right now, pace wise. I've had a good deal of come backs, throws, and all the stuff in between. Now more than ever, really. The baron changes were really nice for the overall game.

3TWarriorApr 17, 20183 votes

yeah, people complained, but everyone knew to ignore the posts about katarina and yi because the only time they became overpowered enough for a 1 v 5 or lower was when they were ridiculously fed

riven was only a hypercarry back in season 3-4 and became another case where they had to get ridiculously fed to take on a team, not to mention know just about every bit of how to handle riven.

Something people ACTUALLY complained about back during that time though, was that top lane or another lane could leave lane, farm in the JUNGLE! and come back somehow with a level advantage over their opponent

chipndip1Apr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

yeah, people complained, but everyone knew to ignore the posts about katarina and yi because the only time they became overpowered enough for a 1 v 5 or lower was when they were ridiculously fed

You can't make the claim that "Almost everyone ignored the complaints" after the fact. Surely it was enough to make the initial changes, otherwise Riot wouldn't have made them. It's like saying "Most people LIKED Rengar and Leblanc's old play patterns. Only a few people whined and Riot did their reworks." No, that's intentionally misleading.

riven was only a hypercarry back in season 3-4 and became another case where they had to get ridiculously fed to take on a team, not to mention know just about every bit of how to handle riven.

...no Riven wasn't a hyper carry? You can roll a game over without being a hyper carry. Also why are you romanticizing the concept of getting an entire team steam-rolled by one person? You know that if that was more common you would be whining in the opposite direction.

3TWarriorApr 18, 20181 votes

what initial changes? Yi plays almost exactly the same as he has for 5 seasons

katarina was given a rework and I am unfamiliar with its exact playstyle, but she is similar to her old self.

if you mean overall what happened to them? back in season 3 and 4, champions were much less mobile and could be caught out easier because of it, that is why Riven held an edge then and scaled quickly. She was given a kit that was inconceivable at the time (for instance, a champion whose defense scales with their offense...) and could lane-bully any champion that was in melee range except for three specific champions: mordekaiser, Jayce and xin zhao. Mordekaiser could outlast and outtrade riven, jayce never had to be in range of riven and could trade equally if she got into range and xin zhao was a duelist that few could trade with effectively and suffered for it

I did not romanticize a 1 v 5 carry. I have experienced them and played them

you brought up that people were complaining about riven and katarina because they got "stomped" and the opponent scaled as a result, like the game intended...

3TWarriorApr 17, 20182 votes

please disclose your source for their hints and priorities?

red posts have frequently been red herrings to distract the players

chipndip1Apr 17, 20182 votes

If you just automatically don't believe what Riot posts on the forums about the game state and direction, then why are you asking for anything to begin with?

Still, things like Ahri and Leblanc's mini-reworks were talked about well before they landed on PBE, if we need examples of things they talked about with the community in advance to doing a thing. Same for nerfing Locket, although they really wanted to find a new active for the item and had to settle with just nerfing it.

And nerfing Braum...and Janna...and Kench. Especially Braum/Kench. Rioters were talking with QTPie and Scarra and their complaints about those two champs sort of put them in Riot's headlights.

And Riot's thoughts on shield popping mechanics, now that I think on it. They've talked about that a few times, not just recently.

They also talked about plans for Clash WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY before now. Like a fucking year ago was their first hint at it, when they talked about their own company-wide tournament in an article.

So you simply have your tin-foil hat over your eyes.

3TWarriorApr 18, 20182 votes

I did not say that I do not believe them. I view them with skepticism.

I would also like your sources. They do not archive their discussions and only hold the discussions for typically ONE AFTERNOON without announcement in the client and often without a stickied thread

right now i'm wondering if it would be worth it to make a request post for a forum dedicated to discussion posts so that there is a defined record of how it occurred

Soraka RulesApr 17, 20185 votes

Reminds me of WoW dying posts lmao. Bfa around the corner and people still saying WoW dying. Same with Dota2, meh. League isn't dying for a long time as long as the moba genre is popular

JustaNewbApr 17, 20183 votes

Everquest 1 still has 2.3m players. Came out in 1999, and was the first 3d MMORPG that only paved the way for WoW ultimately.

Having players isn't life in gaming.

JaxMoonStealerApr 17, 20181 votes

What is it, then?

JustaNewbApr 17, 20183 votes

As one can see with... Vindictus, Perfect World, War Rock, Rappelz, etc etc etc. All pioneers of one thing or another in gaming, and they still have players.

And most people have never heard of them.

ThunderSkelettApr 17, 20182 votes

wow is not a great example that game loses players since buring crusade and blizzard dosen't even show their player numbers anymore.That says much imo.

Mig89Apr 17, 20181 votes

I thought wow peak was wrath of the Lich king. That expansion was the best imo

ModCaptainMårvelousApr 19, 20181 votes

Wrath was the peak. Cata-to-WoD was when it dipped with WoD being the lowest.

Supposedly, Legion has been one of the most popular expacs since like BC times (with some rumors claiming they were up to Wrath/BC sub numbers) but we'll have to see with BFA.

Mig89Apr 19, 20181 votes

I came back for Legion and have Raided everything at its current time except MoP. I have a hard time believing BFA will be good. It seems to have went downhill since they stopped letting you fly based on just hitting a level and paying for training. Their new worlds are too big to not fly lol. I know its a personal opinion but i just get tired of walking after having flown the previous games.

O Fallen ScholarApr 17, 20184 votes

Why are people so bad? Several last weeks have been calm until someone came up with "LoL will die" bandwagon. Now literally everyone (be it YouTuber) are making videos how this game will die or could die. Nonsensical. Just stop it. You know it's dumb.

ThunderSkelettApr 17, 20186 votes

? this was a trend for years

PandeonorApr 17, 20183 votes

It is only on a way backwards wich is to mention within NA. At rest of the world the numbers are not relevant because the decline is around what is to expect after a huge peak. It is mostly stable on high level especially at regions MOBA´s are traditionally strong as in Asia and EU.