Why don't you level in SR while AFK/DC'd like you do in ARAM?

HateDaddy·Dec 22, 2014·9 votes·1,518 views

Honestly, for a company that preaches being against anti-fun the way Riot does, there's literally nothing fun about being dc'd and doing your best to be the good guy and make it back only to be down several levels, behind 2k gold and a plethora of other shit. Besides all that, is there really a good reason for you not to level in fountain? If you never connect, why can't this be added? Like, I'm trying to be the good guy here but my reward is this shit? Why bother reconnecting? Especially when try hard ass bronze players in normals go all out on a level 1 diamond when they're level 7 and go back like "yuh bruh, tatally bet a domond 2day." Seriously, I can live with the lag and connection issues because I know that happens, but your methods in trying to contain the damage in game to the players who deal with it suck dick. Please, for the love of god, fix this.

14 Comments

Cale017Dec 22, 20142 votes

I came into this expecting to have to explain that in ARAM there's passive XP gain and move on with my day. Glad I took the time to read it.

You have a great concept, but the problem is this: ARAM is supposed to be a condensed version of a standard match. And because of that you have to have a constant XP gain or else matches on ARAM would take too long or become entirely one sided. With everyone sharing minion XP and kill/assist XP, it'd be nearly impossible to try and keep the levels of players on the map close to even, and harder still to try and keep games from becoming entirely dependent on one or two members of a team gaining levels faster than any other and sweeping. It'd turn ARAM into an early game meta. Champs like Riven, Lee Sin, or Pantheon would take the cake because of how hard they can snowball early. Hence, everyone gets a base amount of XP over time. Keeps the playing field a bit more even by making up for what you're losing in minion XP, and helps even the ones who aren't getting kills and assists keep up a bit.

Still in regards to SR matches you bring up a valid point. When DCd, whether from an internet issue on your part or, more likely, Riot's part, you come back in still at level 1, or at whatever level you were at before DCing. You're essentially just fodder for the enemy at this point. Trying to walk into a lane is like serving yourself up on a silver platter, and a late start as a jungler is nearly impossible in this new jungle from how strong monsters get over time. Most junglers who don't bleed sustain from every orifice are having difficult times with their first clear, and that's with the jungle at its weakest point. But you're still worth 300 gold, and enemies don't care that you were DCd for twenty minutes. They know a level 2 champion doesn't have anything that's going to save you from their level 11 fury.

However, if you try and put passive XP gains in SR you start to find yourself facing a new set of issues. People who aren't actively contributing to the game are now gaining levels as though they were, instead of having to work for your reward through proper CS, smart plays for kills, and sharing assists with teammates. Matches become MUCH faster, and champions who have solo lanes are leveling incredibly quickly because of the combined passive XP gain and all the XP from minions not being split up between them and four others like in ARAM, or like in a standard bottom lane with two players together. To compensate this you would have to cut down the amount of XP given by minions and jungle camps, but that poses it's own set of problems. Cutting the XP given by minions means that bottom lane, or any duo lane, will be permanently behind during the laning phase, and have a hard time catching up afterwards. Jungle camps also wouldn't keep junglers on a healthy leveling curve, as most junglers are aware of what camps they should be at what levels at and use them as benchmarks. Reducing the amount of XP gained passively wouldn't change a whole lot. Reduce it any further than where it is on ARAM matches and you're not gaining it nearly fast enough to do anything. DC for 20 minutes, get back into a match, and in the time most of the other players are hitting level 9 or 10 you might be breaking 4 or 5 from the passive XP. Reducing that instead of minion camps means that you're gaining even less.

You seem to be forgetting that while ARAM has a passive XP gain, you're still gaining levels much quicker than you do on SR because of the minion XP everyone is getting at roughly the same time, and that usually one kill gives four assists. You could take the passive XP gain out of ARAM and people would still level up very quickly because of the mass amounts of kills and assists going on in a short amount of time. This is also why the first few levels in an ARAM match, where everyone is basically just staring at each other angrily, tend to drag on. Once people start hitting 6, the levels start coming in quicker because there are more engagements, more kills, and more assists.

In short, while it's a good idea to give people passive XP, it has a whole slew of issues that really can't be balanced for. The main difference here is that ARAM NEEDS to have a system like that in place because otherwise no one would be getting any XP at all. On Summoner's Rift, it would cause the opposite effect and you'd find people getting too much in one lane and not enough in another.

HateDaddyDec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

I came into this expecting to have to explain that in ARAM there's passive XP gain and move on with my day. Glad I took the time to read it.

You have a great concept, but the problem is this: ARAM is supposed to be a condensed version of a standard match. And because of that you have to have a constant XP gain or else matches on ARAM would take too long or become entirely one sided. With everyone sharing minion XP and kill/assist XP, it'd be nearly impossible to try and keep the levels of players on the map close to even, and harder still to try and keep games from becoming entirely dependent on one or two members of a team gaining levels faster than any other and sweeping. It'd turn ARAM into an early game meta. Champs like Riven, Lee Sin, or Pantheon would take the cake because of how hard they can snowball early. Hence, everyone gets a base amount of XP over time. Keeps the playing field a bit more even by making up for what you're losing in minion XP, and helps even the ones who aren't getting kills and assists keep up a bit.

Still in regards to SR matches you bring up a valid point. When DCd, whether from an internet issue on your part or, more likely, Riot's part, you come back in still at level 1, or at whatever level you were at before DCing. You're essentially just fodder for the enemy at this point. Trying to walk into a lane is like serving yourself up on a silver platter, and a late start as a jungler is nearly impossible in this new jungle from how strong monsters get over time. Most junglers who don't bleed sustain from every orifice are having difficult times with their first clear, and that's with the jungle at its weakest point. But you're still worth 300 gold, and enemies don't care that you were DCd for twenty minutes. They know a level 2 champion doesn't have anything that's going to save you from their level 11 fury.

However, if you try and put passive XP gains in SR you start to find yourself facing a new set of issues. People who aren't actively contributing to the game are now gaining levels as though they were, instead of having to work for your reward through proper CS, smart plays for kills, and sharing assists with teammates. Matches become MUCH faster, and champions who have solo lanes are leveling incredibly quickly because of the combined passive XP gain and all the XP from minions not being split up between them and four others like in ARAM, or like in a standard bottom lane with two players together. To compensate this you would have to cut down the amount of XP given by minions and jungle camps, but that poses it's own set of problems. Cutting the XP given by minions means that bottom lane, or any duo lane, will be permanently behind during the laning phase, and have a hard time catching up afterwards. Jungle camps also wouldn't keep junglers on a healthy leveling curve, as most junglers are aware of what camps they should be at what levels at and use them as benchmarks. Reducing the amount of XP gained passively wouldn't change a whole lot. Reduce it any further than where it is on ARAM matches and you're not gaining it nearly fast enough to do anything. DC for 20 minutes, get back into a match, and in the time most of the other players are hitting level 9 or 10 you might be breaking 4 or 5 from the passive XP. Reducing that instead of minion camps means that you're gaining even less.

You seem to be forgetting that while ARAM has a passive XP gain, you're still gaining levels much quicker than you do on SR because of the minion XP everyone is getting at roughly the same time, and that usually one kill gives four assists. You could take the passive XP gain out of ARAM and people would still level up very quickly because of the mass amounts of kills and assists going on in a short amount of time. This is also why the first few levels in an ARAM match, where everyone is basically just staring at each other angrily, tend to drag on. Once people start hitting 6, the levels start coming in quicker because there are more engagements, more kills, and more assists.

In short, while it's a good idea to give people passive XP, it has a whole slew of issues that really can't be balanced for. The main difference here is that ARAM NEEDS to have a system like that in place because otherwise no one would be getting any XP at all. On Summoner's Rift, it would cause the opposite effect and you'd find people getting too much in one lane and not enough in another.

I don't want passive global XP gains, just a slower gain rate when fx'do in fountain

Champion SkinDec 23, 20141 votes

You could just add a small amount of XP gain when DC'ed (the same way you gain +1000 armor/mr) and only when you are DC'ed This will make it less punishing but you are still losing out on XP and gold compared to actually being in lane and earning gold and XP from minions (and possibly champions)

Leena GuttalDec 22, 20141 votes

Well, in summoners rift you don't gain Exp passively. You have to get it by being near creeps deaths and champs. In aram tho, you gain exp passively

HateDaddyDec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Well, in summoners rift you don't gain Exp passively. You have to get it by being near creeps deaths and champs. In aram tho, you gain exp passively

Yes I know, why can't you gain it passively in fountain while dc'd

Pollyanna WrightDec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Yes I know, why can't you gain it passively in fountain while dc'd

How much would you propose they get? Coming back in an ARAM game isn't that much of a problem because of gold and EXP passively.

JunkοDec 22, 20141 votes

Because 1 minion death will give you enough exp to level you up twice if you are 5 levels behind.

OJ191Dec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, for a company that preaches being against anti-fun the way Riot does, there's literally nothing fun about being dc'd and doing your best to be the good guy and make it back only to be down several levels, behind 2k gold and a plethora of other shit. Besides all that, is there really a good reason for you not to level in fountain? If you never connect, why can't this be added? Like, I'm trying to be the good guy here but my reward is this shit? Why bother reconnecting? Especially when try hard ass bronze players in normals go all out on a level 1 diamond when they're level 7 and go back like "yuh bruh, tatally bet a domond 2day." Seriously, I can live with the lag and connection issues because I know that happens, but your methods in trying to contain the damage in game to the players who deal with it suck dick. Please, for the love of god, fix this.

this, so much this.

Riot needs to work out the average level/total XP for the average player at any given point in time, drop it a bit so you don't automagically out-level people who were roaming heavily or what have you, then apply that to mid-term dcs/afks (more than 5 minutes).

edit: but if say, you played for 10 mins only earning half the expected amount of XP, then dced for 10 minutes, returning to the game at 20 minutes on the clock, you would have only 3/4 of the expected amount of XP for 20 minutes in, you wouldn't magically get the extra XP you missed out on while playing.

And you would still of course incur penalties for afk/dc so intentionally doing so to try to gain an advantage would be pointless.

PrinceOfStormsDec 22, 20141 votes

Here's what I think.

If you are DC'd, then you return to the game one level lower than the rest of the team's average (minimum 1) and gain gold equal to 75% of the team's average gold earned minus your current gold.

Cale017Dec 22, 20141 votes

Much of that gold is coming from team kills, assists, and CS. Things that players have had to work for to either get for themselves or to be a part of getting for a teammate. Giving part of the gold generated from that to a player who's had no hand in any of it would be rewarding someone for doing absolutely nothing. It's a good idea, but it breaks down when you look at it critically.

EmbertineDec 22, 20141 votes

Listen to the lazy karthus song by Plentakill and you will understand. The link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7kLbJ2WnY People would use this to intentionally dc and still gain exp and/or gold so that they can come back late in the game and mess up the enemy team who up to that point had been fighting only four people, and thus declare that the reason they won was because he who dc'd came back and kicked ass. I have seen this happen before. I have actually done this three times without dc'ing, by playing Shyvana in the jungle and not coming out of the jungle until 20 mins into the game and watching the enemy team fall apart from having been used to fighting only four people and suddenly having an extra one to deal with. Believe me, it works. And thus Riot cannot give a passive exp gain to anyone who dc's in league for that very reason. They have sorta reached a middle ground though where this concern is held. There is a mastery that provides a passive exp gain as long as you are nearby a higher leveled ally and thus, if you have dc'd early game and came back to find everyone level 7 and you only level 1, you can stick close by to someone and level up quickly to where everyone else is at.

OleandervineDec 22, 20141 votes

[{qmastery (name=Embertine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAKcfJKM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2014-12-22T09:38:06.409+0000)

Listen to the lazy karthus song by Plentakill and you will understand. The link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7kLbJ2WnY People would use this to intentionally dc and still gain exp and/or gold so that they can come back late in the game and mess up the enemy team who up to that point had been fighting only four people, and thus declare that the reason they won was because he who dc'd came back and kicked ass. I have seen this happen before. I have actually done this three times without dc'ing, by playing Shyvana in the jungle and not coming out of the jungle until 20 mins into the game and watching the enemy team fall apart from having been used to fighting only four people and suddenly having an extra one to deal with. Believe me, it works. And thus Riot cannot give a passive exp gain to anyone who dc's in league for that very reason. They have sorta reached a middle ground though where this concern is held. There is a mastery that provides a passive exp gain as long as you are nearby a higher leveled ally and thus, if you have dc'd early game and came back to find everyone level 7 and you only level 1, you can stick close by to someone and level up quickly to where everyone else is at.

That mastery is like 16-20 points deep in the Utility page; Anything that isn't a Support is not going to spec for it, and furthermore, you would have to plan ahead for you disconnects because you'd not be able to change your masteries while trying to reconnect. This isn't a valid way to address this issue.

EmbertineDec 22, 20141 votes

I did say "They have sorta reached a middle ground-" But yes I understand that it is a reletively useless passive to anyone not playing a utility spec'd support and that not even supports use it often.

JunkοDec 22, 20141 votes

The ARAM XP gain is because all the EXP for dead minions is shared by 5 people, same for all the exp on kills. It's mainly for fast paced gameplay and so people reach level 6 as soon as possible.

If you gained passive XP for being afk people would decide that they lost the lane, and to avoid feeding the opponent to the point they become unstoppable (for example feeding Kat and Akali because we all love seeing them with 10+ kills before mid game) they would just afk. When they come back they would have to clear a minion wave 1-2 times to gain all the gold and exp to catch up.