Can a Rioter explain their thought process behind Shaco nerfs?

Trash MammaI··3 votes·1,179 views

Critical strike damage changed from [120% - 145%] to [130% (+40% AP) Decieve Q: Cooldown changed from 14 at all ranks to 16/15/14/13/12 // [removed] No longer does 20-80 (+40% AP) bonus physical damage on next attack.

I played nearly nothing but Shaco for 2 seasons. Had my own playstyle build and knew how to make it work in and out. I was finally able to leave bronze and carry myself to gold because of him. Then the rework came and just flat out ruined him (AD Wise) then more nerfs came and they made AP shaco nothing but a gimmick now they're nerfing him AGAIN because of a bunch of low elo players not knowing how to ward or build against him?

Riot you stated his early game was too strong. You said he had far too much ganking pressure and counter jungling was too strong.

First off his early game was abysmal, his first clear was the only one that let him survive and do what he needed early on. When that got messed up by an invade it was really hard to apply any pressure.

Second that level 2 cheese at the enemy buff got completely shutdown with the buffs spawning first. His early game cheese that experience shaco players used got shut down hard. It was already easily avoidable by a simple ward. I can't count the number of times I ran past a ward and the enemy knew I was there yet would still try to take their buff knowing I would smite it. Their allied laners wouldn't care to stop me and would tunnel vision their own lane despite pings.

Why is Shaco being punished for other people making mistakes and/or playing poorly? How is he "too strong" because people literally LET you do what you want?

His mid-late game fell off extremely hard due to lifesteal being ridiculous and he was one of the only assassins that required actual brains to play. He doesn't have resets, extremely low cd, multiple dashes/blinks, he can't shunpo away 5000 times like kat. He can't port from shadow to shadow. He can't be like rengar come from stealth and murder an entire team before they can blink. He went in and got the squishy (if they were dumb) then had to figure out a way out. Which usually required prep time through boxes/clone baits. He was the ideal stealth assassin that should've been the mark for how to balance them.

I've tried and tried once the rework came to make him work. I really did I tried multiple builds going from full ad, bruiser, hybrid, tank and ap. AP Shaco ofc worked/works but unless you somehow go against the worst players in the world you will not do well with AD Shaco at all and now you're nerfing him even more? Why? He was the first main I found and now he's being gutted because of a bunch of gold and lower players not being smart enough to realize 99% of his damage is magic and build MR or that they are too braindead to by a ward? You might as well just admit you don't want people playing him just like evelynn

20 Comments

LostFr0st4 votes

He's keeping Ivern from getting a 60% win-rate.

Not a rioter, but the following might be why he's being nerfed: For a champion who is supposed to outsmart his opponents and has a 'high game-knowledge floor,' he wins a high % of games even when being played by people who are just learning Shaco. His playrate is quite high so it's not like the winrate is being inflated by mains, and his banrate is also nearing 20% so he's also becoming less accessible to his die-hard mains.

All of that combines into 'we need to nerf him, but his damage is reasonable.' So they hit his early Q cd.

Trash MammaI1 votes

I have seen people walk into obvious shaco box traps (they will see him place the boxes and still run into them) and complain that he's broken. I see this WAY more often than I should and I only wish I was exaggerating.

People are just stupid and Riot's nerfing him since he abused that. Trinkets came because people were too stupid to ward so they just flat out GAVE us wards. Dragon/buff/baron timers came cause people weren't smart enough to do simple math on when things would be appear. This game is being dumbed down too much cause people are just stupid. It's annoying that the one main I had gets gutted (especially the playstyle I loved about him) cause a bunch of stupid people can't buy a ward.

I'll admit i'm a bit salty as i've been struggling to find a new main. Now I know how Kassadin mains feel

LostFr0st2 votes

You got a direct answer: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/tcjKBREI-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-30?comment=00020000

Looks like it might get interesting on that thread :3

Trash MammaI2 votes

"What we're targeting specifically here is amount of damage that occurs right at the start of an engagement (Shaco gets a lot of tricks to play with, so shouldn't be too front loaded)"

Graves LeeSin MonkeyKing Rengar Khazix are far worse and are have WAY more utility that's WAY easier to use than Shaco.

Riot just doesn't want to admit that Shaco is now in the same boat as evelynn. They don't want him played until they give him a full on rework

LostFr0st1 votes

Post that over there rofl. You're not going to get any arguments from me, I don't play Shaco. I know what his kit does, but nuanced stuff I can't comment on accurately.

Maddmazz3 votes

At what level are people no longer brain dead wastes of life? Plat? 54.73 Diamond? 54.55 Maybe master? 57.02 Oh here it is. Challenger 45.31

I don't personally have a problem with him and I am tired of all these nerf threads as well but your rant comes off a bit self serving and derogatory. Sounds are just trying to protect your OP champ.

I only see 10 games played on Shaco and most on Singed and you seem better on Udyr?

Trash MammaI1 votes

I abused Singed's dark seal cheese this season to get gold. It was the previous two seasons I've played Shaco as a flat out main. I also have multiple accounts as well as PBE access. Not all my information will be stuck on one account as such happens for very many.

and Shaco is far from OP hence the reason why I quit him. Might as well just play rengar or kha'zix if you want a stealth jungler now

Sagan Forever1 votes

Master players are braindead wastes of life? They are in the top .07% of players. Also challenger has 200 spots made by 10 people and there smurfs( I know an exaggeration but it is probably less than 100 people). The win rate dispositions when looking at challenger ranges from 80-18%. The sample size is too low to get statistical significance from that data.

LyingOnLine1 votes

He's mocking the OP's shit argument, dude.

Sagan Forever1 votes

Yep, looking back I get it. I do not know why I misread it earlier lol.

Maddmazz3 votes

Seems like you are always chasing the high win rate OP champs and that makes sense if you want to win and play every advantage but you have to realize any champ over 50% WR and decent play rate is a candidate for "changes".

Stealth champs are hard to balance.

Expect Arhi, Ivern, Lucian 40% pick rate and unfortunately with all the crying Lulu. So don't pick any of them.

Trash MammaI1 votes

I don't follow meta picks so you'd be wrong on that. I found Shaco fun during dominion so I picked him up and loved him. Singed is one of my highest played right now because I couldn't make shaco work post-rework so he was easy to abuse to get gold fast or w/e I just want a win for FWOTD IP. I find him rather boring in most cases.

Happens everytime I find someone fun and try to play them. Suddenly something happens that makes them FOTM then bam, nerfed into unplayable. Hopefully Urgot's rework doesn't send him out of control as i've been interested in him lately

Maddmazz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Simple Tora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H9zG1vKA,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-30T18:08:53.580+0000)

I don't follow meta picks so you'd be wrong on that. I found Shaco fun during dominion so I picked him up and loved him. Singed is one of my highest played right now because I couldn't make shaco work post-rework so he was easy to abuse to get gold fast or w/e I just want a win for FWOTD IP. I find him rather boring in most cases.

Happens everytime I find someone fun and try to play them. Suddenly something happens that makes them FOTM then bam, nerfed into unplayable. Hopefully Urgot's rework doesn't send him out of control as i've been interested in him lately

After his rework you will have to deal with all the bans from your team and the enemy team along with all the flaming if you even die once.. lol..

KAID02 votes

shaco is stronger then ever boi he has one of the highest win rates currently lol.

Touch My Box1 votes

Summed up perfectly.

I've played him for seasons and he is actually in a decent spot now.

Take a look at his patch note history. He has received 2 buffs in his lifetime, a bug-fixes and a rescale.

I can't remember where, but it was either season 4 or 5 a red said the reason he gets nerfed is that he is infuriating to play against. If Shaco is a good spot, he is un-fun to play against, so they purposely keep him weak to maximize fun.

The only reason he is considered "un-fun" is because there isn't anything to blame your poor play on. He doesn't have high CC, no high scalings or base damages, no high stats or low CDs. He beats you purely because he is fed (everyone rekts you when fed) or because he simply outplayed you.

Gamma Sector1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Simple Tora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H9zG1vKA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-30T13:39:33.136+0000)

Critical strike damage changed from [120% - 145%] to [130% (+40% AP) Decieve Q: Cooldown changed from 14 at all ranks to 16/15/14/13/12 // [removed] No longer does 20-80 (+40% AP) bonus physical damage on next attack.

I played nearly nothing but Shaco for 2 seasons. Had my own playstyle build and knew how to make it work in and out. I was finally able to leave bronze and carry myself to gold because of him. Then the rework came and just flat out ruined him (AD Wise) then more nerfs came and they made AP shaco nothing but a gimmick now they're nerfing him AGAIN because of a bunch of low elo players not knowing how to ward or build against him?

Riot you stated his early game was too strong. You said he had far too much ganking pressure and counter jungling was too strong.

First off his early game was abysmal, his first clear was the only one that let him survive and do what he needed early on. When that got messed up by an invade it was really hard to apply any pressure.

Second that level 2 cheese at the enemy buff got completely shutdown with the buffs spawning first. His early game cheese that experience shaco players used got shut down hard. It was already easily avoidable by a simple ward. I can't count the number of times I ran past a ward and the enemy knew I was there yet would still try to take their buff knowing I would smite it. Their allied laners wouldn't care to stop me and would tunnel vision their own lane despite pings.

Why is Shaco being punished for other people making mistakes and/or playing poorly? How is he "too strong" because people literally LET you do what you want?

His mid-late game fell off extremely hard due to lifesteal being ridiculous and he was one of the only assassins that required actual brains to play. He doesn't have resets, extremely low cd, multiple dashes/blinks, he can't shunpo away 5000 times like kat. He can't port from shadow to shadow. He can't be like rengar come from stealth and murder an entire team before they can blink. He went in and got the squishy (if they were dumb) then had to figure out a way out. Which usually required prep time through boxes/clone baits. He was the ideal stealth assassin that should've been the mark for how to balance them.

I've tried and tried once the rework came to make him work. I really did I tried multiple builds going from full ad, bruiser, hybrid, tank and ap. AP Shaco ofc worked/works but unless you somehow go against the worst players in the world you will not do well with AD Shaco at all and now you're nerfing him even more? Why? He was the first main I found and now he's being gutted because of a bunch of gold and lower players not being smart enough to realize 99% of his damage is magic and build MR or that they are too braindead to by a ward? You might as well just admit you don't want people playing him just like evelynn

See, the thing here is that you just aren't good. Shaco is still very VERY strong, he just takes more skill than he did before. His damage before all of these nerfs WAS too strong. The only thing I wish they would have kept is the e critical if you hit their back.

Trash MammaI1 votes

You realize this is from 8 MONTHS ago, right?

Gamma Sector1 votes

And you realize he hasn't had any changes in those 8 months, so what I said still applies?

Trash MammaI1 votes

Items have changed, runes and masteries have changed, his E got changed. Yes, there have been changes.

Gamma Sector1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Simple Tora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H9zG1vKA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-30T13:39:33.136+0000)

Critical strike damage changed from [120% - 145%] to [130% (+40% AP) Decieve Q: Cooldown changed from 14 at all ranks to 16/15/14/13/12 // [removed] No longer does 20-80 (+40% AP) bonus physical damage on next attack.

I played nearly nothing but Shaco for 2 seasons. Had my own playstyle build and knew how to make it work in and out. I was finally able to leave bronze and carry myself to gold because of him. Then the rework came and just flat out ruined him (AD Wise) then more nerfs came and they made AP shaco nothing but a gimmick now they're nerfing him AGAIN because of a bunch of low elo players not knowing how to ward or build against him?

Riot you stated his early game was too strong. You said he had far too much ganking pressure and counter jungling was too strong.

First off his early game was abysmal, his first clear was the only one that let him survive and do what he needed early on. When that got messed up by an invade it was really hard to apply any pressure.

Second that level 2 cheese at the enemy buff got completely shutdown with the buffs spawning first. His early game cheese that experience shaco players used got shut down hard. It was already easily avoidable by a simple ward. I can't count the number of times I ran past a ward and the enemy knew I was there yet would still try to take their buff knowing I would smite it. Their allied laners wouldn't care to stop me and would tunnel vision their own lane despite pings.

Why is Shaco being punished for other people making mistakes and/or playing poorly? How is he "too strong" because people literally LET you do what you want?

His mid-late game fell off extremely hard due to lifesteal being ridiculous and he was one of the only assassins that required actual brains to play. He doesn't have resets, extremely low cd, multiple dashes/blinks, he can't shunpo away 5000 times like kat. He can't port from shadow to shadow. He can't be like rengar come from stealth and murder an entire team before they can blink. He went in and got the squishy (if they were dumb) then had to figure out a way out. Which usually required prep time through boxes/clone baits. He was the ideal stealth assassin that should've been the mark for how to balance them.

I've tried and tried once the rework came to make him work. I really did I tried multiple builds going from full ad, bruiser, hybrid, tank and ap. AP Shaco ofc worked/works but unless you somehow go against the worst players in the world you will not do well with AD Shaco at all and now you're nerfing him even more? Why? He was the first main I found and now he's being gutted because of a bunch of gold and lower players not being smart enough to realize 99% of his damage is magic and build MR or that they are too braindead to by a ward? You might as well just admit you don't want people playing him just like evelynn

First of all, Shaco is still very very strong. You just... aren't as good as you think you are. I literally just picked up shaco about 3 days ago and his playstyle has resonated with me. Your early game is still nearly untouchable, same with your counterganks/jungling. You take a few kills early and then give the rest to your team. Get them fed so they can fight without you. Then either splitpush, or stick around and hang on the outskirts of teamfights. Sneak way behind them and put boxes in their escape paths. If they win the fight and retreat, you can clean them up. If they lose it, then they lose it that's that. Also you can still completely nuke squishies. Q + ult, box and then AA with clone. Proc shiv and duskblade . Profit

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