We've now lost 3 100+ AP items and only received 1 in return.

Gosh Darn·Nov 25, 2016·5 votes·1,070 views

I'm fine with the rylai's changes for the most part, but this game's items are just leaking AP. We've lost the 100+ AP from Zhonya's, Rylai's, and we lost DFG entirely. We also lost 20 AP from Luden's Echo. On the other hand, Morello's AP was buffed by 20. This is a huge net loss for all mages, but it's especially hard on manaless mages. Someone like Katarina or Rumble has one option for an AP item with more than 80 AP besides Deathcap, and it's so gold inefficient that the passive barely justifies getting it .

We simply need more high cost, high stat mage items. At least 2 that don't provide mana or mana regen would be nice, and from there you can go in any direction you want.

18 Comments

lolipopevelynnNov 25, 20163 votes

Its not a "net loss".

In terms of raw AP, Death cap got buffed, morrelo got buffed, seraph got buffed, and liandry got buffed. we also gained a couple of new AP items with very good damage actives item 3152 item 3030 .

Hourglass needed the nerf for a long time. That item was and still is too good.

RequiemsfireNov 26, 20161 votes

Don't forget buffs to item 3145 and item 3001

Maximum MordeNov 25, 20162 votes

Mejais XD.

MatthewRT2Nov 25, 20161 votes

i feel you, the reason why ap champs has so many items with 100 or more was because all the scaling for the most part were around 40-60% (unless you are a support) while ad champs have a lot of 100-140% scaling abilities with quite a few of 70+ items and crit to go on top of it

Ark SorcererNov 25, 20161 votes

That is why we hate champs like Veigar who has scaling that high. But yes, Mages AP ratios are much lower than AD champs ratio but now they want to get rid of that. Why?

ChaddyFantomeNov 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H4pof1oO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-25T19:39:57.031+0000)

That is why we hate champs like Veigar who has scaling that high. But yes, Mages AP ratios are much lower than AD champs ratio but now they want to get rid of that. Why?

AD champs ratios are higher because they HAVE to be since there is less AD in the game.

They aren't doing more damage than you on spells just because they have higher ratios because you are getting way more AP than they are getting AD. Whats more, there is more Armor than MR and Magic penetration options are better than Armor penetration options, and thus Physical damage is mitigated more than Magic damage, meaning you are STILL doing more damage.

RequiemsfireNov 26, 20161 votes

Mages also tend to have the following traits:

Higher base damage AOE spells hundreds more AP available than AD Ranged Burst CC

MerbstromNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Mages also tend to have the following traits:

Higher base damage AOE spells hundreds more AP available than AD Ranged Burst CC

Higher base damage than what? Maybe on ultimate, but I tend to consider tanks having the higher base damages because they don't actually scale as well with ap/ad/attackspeed. The larger ap values are some what well matched, with ad. Crit and attack speed multiply present base ad and ad per lvl of ad champs along with the ad they buy. While the number may be lower, the actual damage output could be argued to be somewhat equal. Yes mages tend to be bursty, but that should be considered with the windows of opportunity cooldowns provide. And it's fairly common not to have a 1:1 ap ratio, so the higher ap value has diminishing returns. With range and cc I agree with you. But it should be mentioned that mages have no fight sustain, so they can get chunked out easily. (Of course there will be some exceptions to every point but eh, that's the dangers of generalized discussion)

RequiemsfireNov 27, 20161 votes

Annie Viktor Cassiopeia Elise Akali Ryze Veigar Syndra all have the capacity to kill a squishy from 100% hp to 0 as at level 6 and below, their burst damage is considerably higher, their total damage scales really well, they have initiation, engage, poke, powerful CC that really can't be ignored and scale very well throughout the game.

MerbstromNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

all have the capacity to kill a squishy from 100% hp to 0 as at level 6 and below, their burst damage is considerably higher, their total damage scales really well, they have initiation, engage, poke, powerful CC that really can't be ignored and scale very well throughout the game.

Almost any champ has the ability to burst a squishy... And what's in their kits could be irrelevant, when considering the changes to Rylai's. Is -25 ap going to dumpster any mage who has to buy the item? Nah, but any change warrants discussion.

MarshbouyNov 25, 20161 votes

Riot's ideology was give AP champions more CDR and less AP so they can let off more spells but they don't burst as hard.

ErockandrollNov 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Riot's ideology was give AP champions more CDR and less AP so they can let off more spells but they don't burst as hard.

I think over all, Riot is trying to say "AP isn't everything" they want to create a much more dynamic build options instead of just a ton damage.

And considering that they just removed the legion passive from the game, they probably arn't eager to add more magic damage into the game.

Ark SorcererNov 25, 20161 votes

I do not understand why Riot is nerfing Rylai's Crystal Scepter in the first place. It is something for mages to get some health, if they feel like that could help, 100 AP, always great, and a slow, that depends on your champion if its awesome kiting or whatever. I wasn't around when Zyona's was 100 AP but Morell, Luden's Ekko, Rylai's, Rod of Ages (after 10 minutes) and Deathcap are the only 100 AP or more in the game. Nerfing all these items means all mages are getting a nerfed. For the most part, the reason why players go for items like Hexteck Proto-belt is for the active or Void Staff for the magic pen. I like mages, from mid lane mages- Ahri, Syndra, Xerath, Cass- to support mages- Zyra- to the jungle- Diana. I am a player that has been playing with AP characters so much, I memorized a lot of the items, stats, names, passives, cost and active (Though not all). I will see that this will hurt a lot of mages. Seeing how we are in a Assassin Meta, Mages will lose their burst combat the burst assassins. Maybe Riot wants Assassins to be the king of bursting and wish to destroy mage burst. Why? I do not like these changes.

Getting any AP item that is not 100 AP is usually because the passive/active is better than just a flat 100 AP -- Void staff- Magic Pen --Liandra's Tourment- Burn for tankier targets as well as magic pen --Proto-belt- Active --Zhonya's- Active --Linche Bane- Passive as well as other stats

A lot of the 100 AP items usually does not have other stats that are beneficially. Say Luden's Echo- 100 AP is great, 10% ehhh, for champs like Cass works but immobile mages... ehhh. The passive is usually not worth rushing it as a first item as a mage. Rylai's has a slow that does not work on all mages, especially on aoe champs. The health depends on the champ but of you are meant to be safe, then why get the health?

Riot are buffing Assassins and now they are going to nerf Mages... Yay. Assassins in the mid lane all the way... I guess.

AhristocatsNov 25, 20161 votes

and there was a reason for this

ChaddyFantomeNov 25, 20161 votes

Rylais wasn't originally a 100AP item. It being lowered is it returning to the status quo. Whatsmore, item 3165 got buffed to 100 AP. Stop fucking crying over nothing.

MerbstromNov 25, 20161 votes

I can understand them turning Rylai's into a purely utility item, but I just wish there were some more options for high ap items. I don't like the idea of mages being pigeonholed into deathcap and voidstaff every game. One slot for mana item, one for boots, the two for void and dcap... After all that the utility items don't seem to scale very well and aren't as interchangeable as ad items. And the reason lots of mages are "crying" about these changes is that their entire damage relies on that ap threshold. Not to mention, mages don't have the option to sustain in fights the way lifesteal does, so any hit to their health stats will most definitely decide fights.

What's more, it's so much easier to adapt with an ad build. I love the way zeal items build, there are three completely viable and stackable ad/mr items, versatility in the last whisper series, a choice of IE or ER, and some decent on-hit items (they might need some love). I just hope Mages will be able to interact with their builds to the same extent.

lolipopevelynnNov 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I can understand them turning Rylai's into a purely utility item, but I just wish there were some more options for high ap items. I don't like the idea of mages being pigeonholed into deathcap and voidstaff every game. One slot for mana item, one for boots, the two for void and dcap... After all that the utility items don't seem to scale very well and aren't as interchangeable as ad items. And the reason lots of mages are "crying" about these changes is that their entire damage relies on that ap threshold. Not to mention, mages don't have the option to sustain in fights the way lifesteal does, so any hit to their health stats will most definitely decide fights.

What's more, it's so much easier to adapt with an ad build. I love the way zeal items build, there are three completely viable and stackable ad/mr items, versatility in the last whisper series, a choice of IE or ER, and some decent on-hit items (they might need some love). I just hope Mages will be able to interact with their builds to the same extent.

what about ADCs being pigeon holed into IE and PD every game? And tanks have it worse in terms of item vareity. They literally only have 2 MR items to choose from

MerbstromNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

what about ADCs being pigeon holed into IE and PD every game? And tanks have it worse in terms of item vareity. They literally only have 2 MR items to choose from

I think that more the case for the duel focused adcs, but I don't think that's as true for the majority. If anything probably the item 3085 adcs have more of an issue with stale builds than those with PD. And while tanks may only have access to two items with both health and mr, there are items like the item 3105 builds and item 3512 which is at least something. I understand these might not be consistently viable, but at least unlike squishies, tanks often have mr per lvl to beef them up a bit so they could probably get away with it. And problems beyond that are probably more issues with percentile damage. I doesn't matter how much a brand is behind, if he gets a lucky combo he can still wipe out a team.