So if tanks have better base damage, better base stats, more CC, and more utility than bruisers

FalconPawwwwnch··86 votes·4,622 views

Why would I ever pick a bruiser?

Why can a tank with ninja tabi and bramble vest duel bruisers until they finish a 3k+ damage item

Why do tanks have better laning phases and better teamfights

No, tanks do not scale worse than bruisers unless you're a special case like Jax/Fiora

Literally what bruiser can outscale multiple aoe hard CCs, tons of %hp magic damage, and in some cases, even more damage (cho'gath LUL)

101 Comments

Mordepool23 votes

Bruiser 2k17

OHminus9 votes

*2k18

We need to make the new meme so our class can be busted for season 8

Mordepool10 votes

ADC level of whining? I don't think we could come close

Hyquiem2 votes

Doubt it new runes bust adcs hard

The Yetii Rider23 votes

You wouldn't.

You would pick a diver, a juggernaut, or a skirmisher, and you would stop pretending that these three roles are in any way some sort of homogenous group.

Jet Sett8 votes

Bruiser = Damage dealer with HP as main defensive stat. Divers, Juggernauts, and Skirmishers generally fall under this category, but not all bruisers can be put into every group.

I honestly don't understand the fervent attitude towards traditional roles, Riot's class system is just expanding upon the general roles we've always had, they aren't mutually exclusive.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

I see divers who build Randuins. Plenty of juggernauts build Spirit Visage. Gnar relies on Frozen Mallet, but I certainly wouldn't call him a bruiser.

These roles are different and Riot's descriptions of them are beneficial for discussing their itemization and balance. Bruiser is not a useful term or a specific one.

Jet Sett5 votes

Gnar CAN be a bruiser, and I never said bruisers ONLY build HP, I said it's their main defensive stat.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Gnar CAN be a bruiser, and I never said bruisers ONLY build HP, I said it's their main defensive stat.

The majority of vanguards and wardens build item 1409 item 3401 oritem 2303 as their first item. Is Leona a bruiser? How about Braum? Is Amumu a bruiser? See the issue?

Jet Sett5 votes

"Bruiser = Damage dealer with HP as main defensive stat" A character who's main job involves doing damage over other things, but can still involve them.

Ahris17 votes

Tanks can duel squishies and will win 1v1 unless the squishy played it so well. I just played Ornn and wow the only role that could duel me were other tanks.

Tanks have wayy too much damage while being unkillable unless 2v1 or 3v1. Tanks damage definetly needs toning down.

chipndip154 votes

{quoted}

Tanks can duel squishies and will win 1v1 unless the squishy played it so well. I just played Ornn and wow the only role that could duel me were other tanks.

Tanks have wayy too much damage while being unkillable unless 2v1 or 3v1. Tanks damage definetly needs toning down.

Not every tank is Ornn.

AirKingNeo4 votes

No, they're Maokai, Gnar, Cho'Gath, Sejuanni, Rammus, or Zac instead.

Building the same broken items like Bramble Vest and Stoneplate.

chipndip118 votes

{quoted}

No, they're Maokai, Gnar, Cho'Gath, Sejuanni, Rammus, or Zac instead.

Building the same broken items like Bramble Vest and Stoneplate.

Zac isn't even that great in solo queue atm.

Neither is Gnar.

Even Sej is sub 50% in Diamond elo.

Rest are pretty good picks.

AirKingNeo8 votes

Gnar is absurd still.

Sej has a high pickrate I believe.

Durzaka9 votes

And Gnar is also sitting at a 47% win rate.

Gnar isnt absurd because he is a tank. In fact, Mega form is trictly weaker than mini for dueling and 1v1/1v2 like OP is complaining about. He's absurd because mini is broken as shit in the right hands.

Hyquiem1 votes

Sej doesn’t need to be toplane to be effective as a tank she can also support with her cc and still Be tank.

Durzaka5 votes

uh what?

I didnt comment on Sej at all.

And who the fuck plays Sej and either top or support, shes a jungler. End of story.

T4underbolt1 votes

Gnar is retarded currently. He is the best top with jayce and few others. Sejuani is still broken. She just has a lot of players using her.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Gnar is retarded currently. He is the best top with jayce and few others. Sejuani is still broken. She just has a lot of players using her.

Back your shit up with facts or stop replying to me about it.

T4underbolt1 votes

Im backing up my shit with the fact that jayce is dominating every lane and can go 0/5 and still oneshot you. I back up my shit with the fact that even riot balance team that is shit see gnar being overpowered. No shit when you build ninja tabi and still halfshot people with 3 autos or full rotation in mega gnar. Meanwhile keep getting carried when playing supports.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Im backing up my shit with the fact that jayce is dominating every lane and can go 0/5 and still oneshot you. I back up my shit with the fact that even riot balance team that is shit see gnar being overpowered. No shit when you build ninja tabi and still halfshot people with 3 autos or full rotation in mega gnar. Meanwhile keep getting carried when playing supports.

Back your shit up with evidence or stop replying to me about it.

Draw My Fursona18 votes

{quoted} Ornn

stopped reading. that's the issue.

Iota Theta5 votes

People still don’t always play around the unreliability he has. A lot of squishies either have range to stay away or dashes to dodge.

Although...I’m only finding one match of you on Ornn...going 6/11/12, outdamaging only your non-jungle Khazix and Annie. So I’m very much doubting your claim of

Tanks can duel squishies and will win 1v1 unless the squishy played it so well. I just played Ornn and wow the only role that could duel me were other tanks.

Tanks have wayy too much damage while being unkillable unless 2v1 or 3v1. Tanks damage definetly needs toning down.

Ahris2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H2dNVviM,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-11-22T23:11:17.804+0000)

People still don’t always play around the unreliability he has. A lot of squishies either have range to stay away or dashes to dodge.

Although...I’m only finding one match of you on Ornn...going 6/11/12, outdamaging only your non-jungle Khazix and Annie. So I’m very much doubting your claim of

??? I outdamaged kha zix and annie is pretty huge.

Iota Theta3 votes

Annie perhaps. Kha’zix? It was a lane Kha’zix. Most of Kha’zix’s damage is from Isolation, which he doesn’tget near minions. He’s predominately a jungle champ, and not so good in lanes.

Ralanr3 votes

Plus AoE damage can outscale single target.

BobaFlautist8 votes

Early game tanks might have more immediate burst, but their abilities are unreliable, have high Mana costs, and long cooldowns. A bruiser should always win an all-in from 100% at this stage.

A bruiser with a completed item out bursts and out dps's a tank on one item, as well as usually having more sustain, more reliable abilities, and better sticking power (tanks have string lockdown but it's usually better for peeling or for helping an ally stick, they move so slowly that they have trouble sticking themselves after their first rotation).

A bruiser with two completed items is roughly 60-70% as tanky as a tank (depending of course on the individual champion), can chunk a squishy for 70% of their hp instantly without their ult, and is roughly three times as good at taking towers/neutral objectives. They can also easily sweep a teamfight if the enemy team is a little underleveled or poorly positioned, whereas tanks can usually dive in and kill 1-2 at best if fed.

At 3 items, a bruiser can 100-0 a squishy without their ult, and tank most of the enemy team for about as long as a tank can. However, by this point they're easily peeled and kited if the enemies play well. The tank starts to edge the out in power just by sheer utility and cc - Maokai doesn't actually need to be tankier than Irelia because he doesn't need to survive to matter, if be goes in and gets off 1-2 rotations before getting killed he did his job whereas an Irelia that can't get to priority target is useless.

At 4+ items tanks are significantly better in teamfights. Bruisers, however, still splitpush and duel significantly better.

THE RlVER KlNG8 votes

1.) they dont, unless you're talking about juggernauts, which are fighters not tanks, juggernauts have the best base stats in the game

2.) target selection, actual damage steroids. tanks don't have that. their damage is also usually unreliable and contingent on stuff. fighters and bruisers can usually combo and string their damage together rather smoothly.

its really just ornn/maokai that is egregious rn. all the other tanks lose where and when they should. even sej has dropped down a bit. cho isnt a tank, hes some bastard amalgamation of everything wrong with league.

Mordepool3 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H2dNVviM,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-11-23T00:50:41.152+0000)

1.) they dont, unless you're talking about juggernauts, which are fighters not tanks, juggernauts have the best base stats in the game

Also the worst. Example Mordekaiser.

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

just morde though, and anyways theres a reason because he's an extreme fringe case who has constant shielding

darius, illaoi, skarner, garen all have some of the best raw stats in the game, darius chief amongst them

Mordepool4 votes

My point is to demonstrate that generalizations are always true /S

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Tanks dmg is unreliable? Quite the opposite lmao. Name one tank with unreliable dmg who is not trash tier. Exactly. Shen, ornn, Mao, Rammus, Sej all of them have reliable dmg.

Iota Theta2 votes

Ornn’s damage is reliable? W is his only damage, and it’s spread over the 5 ticks, so even that you can avoid taking the full damage.

Troll for Trump7 votes

Top is the new support these days

chipndip15 votes

Divers have better gap closers than most tanks and do better earlier.

Jugs are useless champions.

Iota Theta3 votes

Some Juggs are similar to how ADCs should be, need the team to help set them up, since they don’t have the mobility to get into a fight. They’re just durable and melee as opposed to squishy (supposedly) and ranged.

chipndip15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H2dNVviM,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-11-22T23:01:59.373+0000)

Some Juggs are similar to how ADCs should be, need the team to help set them up, since they don’t have the mobility to get into a fight. They’re just durable and melee as opposed to squishy (supposedly) and ranged.

Jugs

Are

Useless

Champions.

Why would I pick a frontliner that needs help setting up when I have a back line that needs the same thing?

Iota Theta3 votes

Like I said, it depends. They’re durable champs with massive damage potential in teamfights. They’re the “frontliners” that follow up, not engage (or if your Illaoi, counter-engage). The fact that they need that help in teamfights is the balance point for the amount of damage they can put out. Like i said, Juggernaut’s are the class that is supposed to mirror ADCs, except ADCs are tough to overthrow, especially with how the season ended with Ardent and full crit builds, among other things.

Ap Mid Burst5 votes

Bruisers season 8 LUL

Teridax685 votes

There was once a time in League where the exact opposite had happened: fighters were as tanky as tanks, and had comparable crowd control, but also had significantly more damage, and so out-performed them. Hecarim, Jarvan IV and Vi were at the forefront of this, as their versatile kits allowed them to out-gank tank junglers and act in teamfights faster than the enemy team could react to them. Tanks, by contrast, felt slow, weak, and generally ineffective, so many players asked for changes to that situation. Riot's response to this has been to give most tanks target-agnostic damage and durability-to-damage scalings, in addition to even more crowd control than before. As a result, we have fallen on the other side of the fence, where tanks are now capable of applying both damage and crowd control more reliably than fighters.

Despite this situation being the flipside to one of League's previous problems, the fundamental problem remains the same: tanks and fighters are not being differentiated well enough, to the point where one class can end up taking on the functions of the other. It's all well and good to characterize tanks by their CC and fighters by their damage, but when each class has elements of the other, by definition there will always be a degree of overlap. This can also be seen with champions switching from one camp to the other: when Rek'Sai got her damage nerfed, Riot officially treated her like a tank, and only when they realized she had turned into a stun bot did they turn her back into a diver. Galio was officially updated with the intent of being a tank, but he is now being balanced as some kind of fighter as well. Whereas in most cases, turning a marksman into a tank, or an assassin into a support, would require a complete kit overhaul, turning a fighter into a tank or vice versa can often be easily achieved with just a few number tweaks, often without changing the champion's personality either.

I think the only durable solution to this, beyond just rebalancing tanks and fighters, is going to require making much clearer separations between what constitutes a tank, and what constitutes a fighter, so that it should no longer be possible to switch from one to the other with just a few surface-level balance changes. This is something the Tank Update should have aimed to achieve as its central goal, but instead it only further blurred the lines between vanguard and diver. At this point, I think we're all well aware of the dangers of giving tanks "satisfying" damage, as it simply ends up turning them into damage-dealers, and so I think it would help to take a ton of damage out of tank kits, including their target-agnostic damage. Similarly, we need to stop defining fighter contributions by the CC they can apply, or the amount of damage they can soak up for their carries, and should instead focus on making damage output their prime asset. Right now, I suspect one of the major obstacles to this is just that fighters can't function properly in an environment saturated with cheap, reliable, AoE hard CC, and working on clearing that out would work wonders for the class by allowing them to deal damage a little more reliably. Just as with giving tanks damage, giving fighters CC or utility "just so that they can contribute no matter what" is a slippery slope that ultimately fails to address the main issue it implicitly admits to: that if the fighter weren't loaded with those kinds of effects, they wouldn't be able to reliably contribute, even though damage is meant to be their core contribution to a team comp.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I think the only durable solution to this, beyond just rebalancing tanks and fighters, is going to require making much clearer separations between what constitutes a tank, and what constitutes a fighter

Tanks need to be CC+survivability. They need damage to waveclear however, and they need to waveclear without using all their mana.

Fighters need to be damage+stick. They need to be hardy enough to survive in team fights AND sticky enough that they can take down running targets.

Honestly Riot needs SOME WAY to separate tanks from everyone else. Because unlike mages, marksmen, bruisers, and assassins a TANK is a general concept and not an actual champion archetype. They could do this easily with the current runes by adding "specialties" that impact items. Because tank items are easily abused due to their generality, a "tank specialty" could reduce bonus AD by 50% but make tank items FINALLY gold efficient without their passives. If we applied this idea to all classes, we could actually tone-down the cross abuse of items in a case by case basis by adding items to their intended specialty and making people who want that playstyle go all in instead of half-and-half. We could stop assassins from going duskblade ----> IE/shiv by making crit items an ADC specialty and the duskblade passive an assassin specialty.
We could also stop non-fighters from getting maw of malmortus by making it a fighter specialty... which would alleviate many problems in mid lane. Hybrid champions tend to go with whatevers strongest and riots intent with the new rune system was to force us to change it every game (why cant we do it after we pick then RITO?! WHY?!), specialties could allow champions like juggernauts to tailor themselves per game by going tankier or hurting more.

Further, we could leave some items like titanic hydra, non-crit attack speed items, sheen items, mono-stat items like warmogs, and hybrid items like tear in a general pool so that diverging playstyles are still possible.

@thread What is a bruiser? A bruiser is any champion who buys mostly AD and health. Resistances are incidental. Bruisers do more burst damage but are less tanky overall than real tanks, because if they were real tanks there would be no reason to use tanks ever.

What is a tank? A tank is any champion who buys mostly resistances and health. AD is incidental. Tanks do more damage over time than bruisers, because if they did as much burst damage then there would be no reason to ever use bruisers.

Why to people bitch about bruisers being weaker than tanks? The answer the this question lies in damage output and survivability. Bruisers have high base damage and high ratios but often dont survive as well as a real tank. This allows the real tank to get more damage off over time than the bruiser, which leads to this perceived problem of "tanks better than bruisers" when its simply not the case. A bruiser is FAR better than a tank because they do the same job WITH useful damage. The AoE effect isnt noticable while playing, but it bloats numbers which adds to this perceived problem...

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

Tanks need to be CC+survivability. They need damage to waveclear however, and they need to waveclear without using all their mana.

If tanks need to waveclear with no mana, that might just be all the more reason to move damage away from their abilities, which generally require mana to activate, and shift some of it onto their basic attacks. One of the gripes I have with tanks in MOBAs is that they usually look like they could smash a brick wall with their pinkie, but then end up barely caressing even the weakest of minions with their punches. In this context, it would also separate a tank's CC combo from their damage output, allowing them to trade and waveclear in lane, as well as have something impactful to do in-between downtimes, without it bleeding too hard into their initiation.

All of this is assuming tanks need waveclear, though, and this is an assumption I question. Generally, the reasons given for this is that tanks otherwise get pushed to their towers and can't really influence the map, but what all of this implies is that the only way to have an impact on the map is through damage, which is concerning. As long as this is true (and it currently is), not only will every class continue to be required to have some amount of damage just to function, but non-damage classes will continue to remain subservient to damage-dealers. None of this is conducive to diversity or healthier gameplay, which is why I think it would also be worth adjusting Summoner's Rift so that features like crowd control and durability can also make a lasting impact on the map, and not just damage.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

If tanks need to waveclear with no mana, that might just be all the more reason to move damage away from their abilities, which generally require mana to activate, and shift some of it onto their basic attacks. One of the gripes I have with tanks in MOBAs is that they usually look like they could smash a brick wall with their pinkie, but then end up barely caressing even the weakest of minions with their punches. In this context, it would also separate a tank's CC combo from their damage output, allowing them to trade and waveclear in lane, as well as have something impactful to do in-between downtimes, without it bleeding too hard into their initiation.

All of this is assuming tanks need waveclear, though, and this is an assumption I question. Generally, the reasons given for this is that tanks otherwise get pushed to their towers and can't really influence the map, but what all of this implies is that the only way to have an impact on the map is through damage, which is concerning. As long as this is true (and it currently is), not only will every class continue to be required to have some amount of damage just to function, but non-damage classes will continue to remain subservient to damage-dealers. None of this is conducive to diversity or healthier gameplay, which is why I think it would also be worth adjusting Summoner's Rift so that features like crowd control and durability can also make a lasting impact on the map, and not just damage.

Every champion deserves built in waveclear at a reasonable rate.
If a champion doesnt have waveclear, theyre not going to be very fun or satisfying to play period. Theres a reason why waveclear doesnt take power budget in champions anymore and why almost every champion has it.

However, waveclear doesnt have to be broken... Braum His Q needs to pass through minions. It doesnt have to slow its full amount if it passes through minions, and it would help braum be more than just a sub-par support.

Leona Her passive needs to proc on her empowered auto attacks as an AoE (similar to cleave).

Nautilus His AoE needs looking at. Making non-champions take increased damage from it would be nice (which can be achieved by making minions take the full damage and not reduced damage from extra rings).

Nunu Iunno how to do this with nunu. Hes spammy enough it might not matter though.

Shen His empowered autos need to be turned into an AoE cleave (an actual cleave; a wide swing from side to side creating a cone shape. Imagine a titanic hydra proc but centered on shen, alowing him to deal damage to the entire row of melee minions with one attack).

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly, I think that for support tanks we should reduce waveclear. Leona and Braum, for example, should be about making picks and protecting allies respectively, they don't need to clear the wave, they need to keep their teammate alive.

Top and jungle tanks need waveclear to actually function well in their roles. Sion, Poppy, and Naut all have waveclear built into their kits and it's a big part of their kits often. Hell, the only top lane tank who doesn't have built in waveclear is Shen, and he ends up building items like Titanic Hydra to fix that problem.

Hypochondria94 votes

They scale better

Rins Thigh Socks20 votes

{quoted}

They scale better

No they don't.

Bruisers are better duelists and they're a bit stronger in the mid-game but they don't outscale tanks because tanks are functional in late-game teamfights.

Hypochondria97 votes

What tank out scales a Jax or Fiora?

Rins Thigh Socks6 votes

{quoted}

What tank out scales a Jax or Fiora?

Jax and Fiora are weird examples because they don't fit the play pattern of most bruisers, being heavy scaling champions. But they're also terrible at teamfighting. They're just scarier than usual at dueling.

Look at it this way. Let's say they're all bruisers. All of them are gonna try arms race each other and rarely group, but when it hits 30 minutes Jax and Fiora are worse to deal with and you're gonna need more players to stop their split (preferably 3 as opposed to taking 2 to deal with Renekton or Darius).

AirKingNeo6 votes

Jax and Fiora are countered by forcing teamfights.

What class if best at forcing teamfights?

Tanks.

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