Give me one good reason why Graves should be allowed to remain in his current state.

Eyesack··77 votes·18,468 views

A ranged drain tank assassin adc that can jungle at 100% hp the entire clear and is strong early mid and late game.

Can duel well, teamfight, has multiple abilities that move him over walls, with one of the best cc abilities in the game (smoke cloud).

He basically doesn't have weaknesses. I really don't understand why he is allowed to continually be an oppressive, must-ban champion in literally every meta of this game.

Edit: to all the people calling me out for being a xin main, i want him nerfed too frankly and definitely harder than the current ones. I played xin back when he was dogshit for 3 seasons straight and im tired of having him be banned all the time. Makes me particularly angry when i cant play one of my only good counters to graves.

125 Comments

Eyesack35 votes

he has the 4th highest winrate in diamond while having the 5th highest pickrate. And on pbe theyre nerfing his ult cd by like 5 seconds as if thats gonna DO SHIT.

ALL MłGHT25 votes

Remember, these are the same people that gave Zoe Q .25s increase

One359 votes

0.25 seconds never forgetti

Melledoneus11 votes

3 AD.

FilDaFunk2 votes

5 ms

ZackTheWaffleMan5 votes

That's a big change tho.

on topic, Janna W 5 dmg

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

he has the 4th highest winrate in diamond while having the 5th highest pickrate. And on pbe theyre nerfing his ult cd by like 5 seconds as if thats gonna DO SHIT.

Xin is just as bullshit as Graves right now.

Xin Zhao is losing half a long sword of AD over the entire game..

That's a bigger joke than the Graves Nerfs.

PowerOfDrainAge3 votes

At least u should speak with real facts

ModKnightsKemplar24 votes

He's definitely OP. I don't know that I would call him a drain tank, though.

AirKingNeo7 votes

I'm agreeing with you on this because Graves doesn't even build Lifesteal nor take Fleet.

Slythrin Umbreon2 votes

Why is this being downvoted when the other one's getting upvotes? Boards, plis

SociopathFriend11 votes

I assume because literally every Graves I've ever seen builds item 3812 which most definitely heals you. So saying he doesn't build lifesteal is something of a crock.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Yeah but he isn't that by default. Listing a late game strength among his early game strengths makes it look like he's saying he's a draintank from the get-go.

Melledoneus5 votes

Conqueror...?

My old brain cannot process this.

Brain Errör 4044 votes

Graves primary keystone is fleet and for good reason. He's classified as range, so conqueror works the same on him as other ranged champs making it not so ideal. Fleet is good for the LS and movement speed boost normally in between reloads to let you keep up a good kite.

DeusVult5 votes

Doesn't build LS item 3812 item 3072 ????

ShaolinToilet23 votes

You main xin who shits on graves

saltran49 votes

Xin player complaining about Graves:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd-FhrgVMAIaH6S.jpg

Serika Zero15 votes

I feel like you are making several huge mistakes.

Like, Graves was barely played and didn't do to well until a few patches ago. He became popular and strong again due to the new jungle changes.

These changes forced the junglers to interact with each other (something a lot of them seem to heavily hate) more often than not. And this is what propelled graves back up.

He is by no means a strong late game character. And his mid game is average. But his clear is very healthy, and quick. Which gives him an advantage in the early game. An advantage which he can press and use it to interact with the enemy jungler or simply do scuttle crab and get ahead in exp. Essentially, starting to snowball. And then he can invade or gank laners.

While you people might hate hasishin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smtagi5PqGg

that's a video about him talking with 2 of the people that got the high tier in na as junglers. And you can see them being very, lets say, unhappy, about the fact that jungle isn't as impactfull in terms of shutting down the enemy jungler. As for example a laner can shut down his enemy laner.

Mainly because of this "lack of interaction", albeit, it was a different reason for it back then. What riot did now, is that they forced said interaction to happen, as a result, ofc, the new champions that are going to be "top tier" are those which can take advantage of the enemy jungler as well as the enemy team to some degree.

ps, if you watch the video, you'll hear a lot of crying about tanks, try not to get to caught up in that.

So, the point of this post is to say that graves is not a:

ranged drain tank assassin adc that can jungle at 100% hp the entire clear and is strong early mid and late game.

He is not stronger than a tank late game. He is not stronger than a traditional adc late game. He is not stronger than a mage late game. He is most likely around a bruiser's level. Good early and mid, falls off later.

Because of this, he isn't really an "adc". He won't be building crit or on-hit damage items, he will be building a hybrid of sorts. http://na.op.gg/champion/graves/statistics/jungle

You can see black cleaver in there, you can see yommus in there, and you can see warriors and phantom dancer and most build items. Looking on his items statistics, we can see that Life steal items, required to be a 'drain tank' unless you got life steal in your kit (like Aatrox or Olaf ) have only like 1.6% pick rate for Death's Dance and 1.5% for Maw and 1.2% for vampiric scepter. Which means, in about 95.7% of the games, Graves doesn't have life steal. Hence, not a drain tank.

Even Duskblade only has a 3.6% pick ratio, meaning, he won't be picking the "Assassin" item either in most games. Expect about 70%+ of your graves game to have something like Black Cleaver, Yomus, PD, Warrior and boots.

Which makes graves into not:

ranged drain tank assassin adc that can jungle at 100% hp the entire clear and is strong early mid and late game.

But: short range bruiser with a very healthy clear, good mobility and is strong in the early and mid game

Which means, he relies on being able to stay ahead of the course of the game, and punishing the enemy's mistakes. Be it the laners's or jungler's. And he has the tools to do just that.

And he is still a much more healthy pick than Twitch jungle...........

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Like, Graves was barely played and didn't do to well until a few patches ago. He became popular and strong again due to the new jungle changes.

no, was already popular and op before jng change due to riot overbuffing him.

i kick routers2 votes

[deleted]

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

The famous placebo. But he was perma pick at high elo.

AirKingNeo14 votes

because he isn't a drain tank and his first 3 items don't even include lifesteal. That's about it.

Bronze1stEdition12 votes

His weakness is... Not having is Cigar

Melledoneus11 votes

Except he has it.

So he has no weaknesses.

ZackTheWaffleMan4 votes

No, his weakness is not having a cigar, but he has it, so he isn't currently weak.

It's like how Superman's weakness is always Kryptonite, even when there's none nearby.

TyroneWatermelon10 votes

because ape balance team

five oh tree 9 votes

while I want graves nerfed, the inaccuracy of this post makes it a shitpost and thus I must downvote.

A ranged drain tank assassin adc

Please stop actively trying to make things sound op. We all play the same game, we all know who graves is, you don't need to try and make him sound more op. We all see him.

Can duel well, teamfight, has multiple abilities that move him over walls, with one of the best cc abilities in the game (smoke cloud).

Dueling is pretty good, for sure. Teamfight is a cointoss most of the time imo, there's much better adcs and junglers for that. His ult can only move him over the thinnest of walls. Now, I don't have a problem with any of that description, because it's not really wrong.

one of the best cc abilities in the game (smoke cloud).

This though. I can't believe this was upvoted. You're calling this better than amu R, Ornn R, Veigar E, Malz R, skarner R, etc. This is shit cc. It's cheesy and lets him have a bit more of an edge against immobile melee champs, but it's useless outside that. mediocre slow, last maxed ability. Extremely niche and pretty useless compared to other champs' cc abilities.

He basically doesn't have weaknesses. I really don't understand why he is allowed to continually be an oppressive, must-ban champion in literally every meta of this game.

Now this is where it turns into a full on feelsfest and completely disregards logical and factual basis. he literally can't auto through units and you're saying he has no weaknesses? He hasn't been must ban for a long time, and he does not exist in every meta of this game. Lately, the jg meta has been very suited to him, so yes, we see him often.

VvVVvV8 votes

He stopped smoking. When you improve your lifestyle you see better results in your performance.

GigglesO7 votes

{quoted}

must-ban champion in literally every meta of this game.

Yea I complain alot on the boards, and I don't understand why we tailor the games to burst champions being top notch, and then why did we make everyone a burst champion.

I honestly feel 90% of leagues problems are that damage is too high.

Spencer3 votes

I definitely think that power creep has set-up shop

I Love Roses7 votes

Nerf Xin first then graves, because FUCK you

Thilmer6 votes

He is only strong now because of the retarded scuttle crab changes. Two patches ago, you never saw him.

ChaddyFantome5 votes

{quoted}

He is only strong now because of the retarded scuttle crab changes. Two patches ago, you never saw him.

This

HarvestOfShrooms5 votes

...

It's too hard to balance? Take's too many resources? Working as intended?

/s

Battalion5 votes

Graves was laughable before this patch and the one before it. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Graves has always been viable, he certainly hasn't been, or at least not this oppressive. He does need to be tuned down, I agree, especially since the meta is level 2 fighting.

OverpoweredSoap4 votes

....Uuuuuhh... He's kinda hot?

rtbf2216514124 votes

He is getting nerfed. Barely, but surely.

Colgate Gator4 votes

He has a cool beard.

You asked for a reason.

BestPudgeNA4 votes

{quoted}

A ranged drain tank assassin adc that can jungle at 100% hp the entire clear and is strong early mid and late game.

His isn't a drain tank, Assassin or ADC. He basically a bruiser with a little bit of ranged. But he lacks the insane engage range that the actual broken bruisers like Irelia and Camille have.

with one of the best cc abilities in the game (smoke cloud).

This is one of dumbest things i've ever heard on these boards.

He basically doesn't have weaknesses.

His biggest weakness is he gives enemy champs and minions a free Braum E against all of his autos, as well as having a reload mechanic.

I really don't understand why he is allowed to continually be an oppressive, must-ban champion in literally every meta of this game.

He has been pick/ban for one patch. It's a patch he was nerfed on, 8.10 was a nerf to all junglers. It's just the nerfs hurt Xin/Graves much less. For most of the Season he has been sub 50% win rate. WTF are you even talking about.

needHymn3 votes

[deleted]

AetherArising10 votes

{quoted}

Zac also doesn't have any weaknesses. Where's your complaint against zac?

a lack of damage while being unkillable

gnar and graves have those, zac doesnt have bursty damage. just infinite cc chains.

Durzaka7 votes

In what world does Zac not have any weaknesses?

He pays for his CC by having nonexistant damage. And in a very duel-centric jungle that we currently have he is hot garbage.

Just to top that off, he is currently sitting at the second lowest win rate in the jungle right now. THATS why there are no complaints against Zac.

AS I LAY FEEDING2 votes

so long crab meta exist, only duelist champs will be the best picks in jungel. I guess after graves and xin have been nerfed most likely every game will be filled with Lee Sin and maybe kindred.

Ionian Vulpix2 votes

Because he finally got his cigar back

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

Oh stfu he's been in the gutter for about a year since the last time Riot took him to the back and executed him. He's not a tank, not a drain tank and not an assassin he's a bruiserish marksman who is played mostly jungle. His AA cant penetrate targets, you can literally hide behind your tanks and minions. One of the only champs who has to actually reload his basic attack and has a cap on his attack speed.

FotM =/= OP with no weakness, his a good early jungler in a meta where early jungle clears are what junglers need, no shit he got popular, dont gutt him just because you use all your buzz words to describe him.

420 grams2 votes

He gave up smoking so of course his performance increased. Good job, Graves, keep on being healthy!

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